Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

The idea that people will have a chance to hear the gospel after death, and repent, if they haven't heard it on earth isn't implied, indicated, or referred to anywhere in the Bible, which is why I asked.

The idea is implied:

 

1 Peter 4:6---King James Version (KJV)

⁶ For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

In this verse the gospel is preached to people when they were alive, but are now dead at Peters writing. Notice that they will be judged according to men in the flesh. They are not judged based on what they did after they died, when they have no flesh.

 

 

 

Done that many times. If it stated what you are claiming then instead of a reference to creation just following the statement that people are without excuse, there would be a follow up reference to their specific knowledge of the gospel. But it's not there. Instead there is a reference to how creation leads us to God himself. That his invisible qualities are seen by creation alone.

 

And repentance and water baptism brings forth the salvation grace of God:

 

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Right.

[danielwoods]

If you do not accept any truth that is not expressly contained in your interpretation of the Bible, do you eschew modern medicine and implied doctrines like the rapture?

If you reject Latter-day revelation that is your business, but pretending the Bible is a compendium of all truth is ridiculous.

 

I don't think I have stated that the Bible is a compendium of all truth. I do believe that what it teaches is truth. And yes I believe it does teach the rapture.

 

...if I don't seem to be taking this conversation seriously it is because I've been down this road before. The punchline is always Mormons can be considered Christians but they have additional requirements placed on their Christianity placed on them by the Christians that judge them, that other Christians don't have, because they are Mormons.

I am quite comfortable with Christ's judgement and find it superior to any mortal judgement of the efficacy of my faith in Him.

I am certainly not judging your faith. I too trust in Christ alone as my author and finisher of my faith.

[danielwoods]

You conveniently left out the part that says, "but live according to God in the spirit." In other words, the Gospel is preached to the dead so that the they might be judged as if they had received the gospel in the flesh, and they are shown this mercy because they were willing to receive and live the Gospel of Christ in the realm of departed spirits.

Take an aboriginal fellow, for instance, who lived in a remote wilderness three thousand years ago, and who never once ever heard a word about the Judeo-Christian God, Jesus Christ or the Gospel. God in His mercy says that because a preacher was never sent to that man that he might hear and receive the Gospel, he is accounted in the eyes of the Lord as if he is still alive in the flesh because this is the only fair, just and merciful thing a truly loving God would do.

You might be surprised to know that the Latter-day Saints believe the only time men can receive Gospel is in the flesh. That's why, according to the mercy of God, those who die without having heard and received the Gospel in the flesh are technically still considered by God to be in the flesh because it's unfair in the extreme if one is consigned to an endless hell because they never knew of the Gospel while on earth. That's why, according to Peter, after a deceased person hears the Gospel he is judged as if he is still in the flesh on the earth but is in actuality living according to God's will in the world of departed spirits. So, in a technical sense, we are in agreement that the Gospel must be received while in the flesh.

Again, you're going to have a very tough time convincing the Latter-day Saints to abandon the God of true justice, love and mercy.

Let's look at these two phrases:

The gospel was preached to them, 

"that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

"he is judged as if he is still in the flesh"

Peter's statement is about those who were alive at the time when the gospel was preached to them. It is similar to these statements by Paul:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:3 And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Galatians 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

The whole passage in chapter 4 of 1 Peter is dealing with life on earth, not after death. The difference between his phrase and yours is that he doesn't say, "as if" rather, he says according to… which is the same as what Paul is saying. God condemns sin in the flesh (judges), that we might live to God in the Spirit.

Again, the question isn't what is merciful in our opinion, rather, what is taught in the Bible?

I'd rather believe the truth even if it didn't appear merciful to me, than to believe a lie that did.

Edited October 22, 2014 by danielwoods

[dberrie2000]

 

I don't think I have stated that the Bible is a compendium of all truth. I do believe that what it teaches is truth. And yes I believe it does teach the rapture.

 

I am certainly not judging your faith. I too trust in Christ alone as my author and finisher of my faith.

 

Does your faith include God giving His salvational grace to those who obey Him?

 

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[coolrok7]

Anakin7, where does your sinful nature come from? Also salvation is redefined terminology in Mormonism which is not the Biblical teaching.

The highest eternal opportunities are a part of the free gift, not earned, merited, or worked for.

[dberrie2000]

Anakin7, where does your sinful nature come from? Also salvation is redefined terminology in Mormonism which is not the Biblical teaching.

The highest eternal opportunities are a part of the free gift, not earned, merited, or worked for.

 The free gift came upon all men when Christ finished it:

 

Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)

¹⁸ Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

 

 All men are justified of life, due to the Atonement. All.

 

Question for you, Cool--would you consider God giving His salvational grace to them that obeyed Him--and did His work--earning grace?

 

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[teddyaware]

Let's look at these two phrases:

The gospel was preached to them, 

"that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

"he is judged as if he is still in the flesh"

Peter's statement is about those who were alive at the time when the gospel was preached to them. It is similar to these statements by Paul:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:3 And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Galatians 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

The whole passage in chapter 4 of 1 Peter is dealing with life on earth, not after death. The difference between his phrase and yours is that he doesn't say, "as if" rather, he says according to… which is the same as what Paul is saying. God condemns sin in the flesh (judges), that we might live to God in the Spirit.

Again, the question isn't what is merciful in our opinion, rather, what is taught in the Bible?

I'd rather believe the truth even if it didn't appear merciful to me, than to believe a lie that did.

Well you go ahead an believe as you wish. We'll agree to disagree.

[danielwoods]

Does your faith include God giving His salvational grace to those who obey Him?

 

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is given to those who put their trust in him.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[KevinG]

That's good to know because I put my trust in Jesus Christ my Savior. Then I guess this Mormon is a Christian (along with millions more).

So in your missionary zeal you will share this with the ministers who claim we are not Christian so they can stop wasting their time and go find more lost souls, right?

[coolrok7]

KevinG, Mormons put their trust in Joseph Smith who wasn't there with the apostles but has usurped their teaching in many areas of doctrine.

[KevinG]

KevinG, Mormons put their trust in Joseph Smith who wasn't there with the apostles but has usurped their teaching in many areas of doctrine.

I have a one word reply for that but it would get me thread banned. Instead I offer this.

Thanks for telling me what I believe in order to make your lie more palatable.

I'm not playing that game.

Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of my salvation. Joseph Smith was a nice kid who the Lord revealed many truths through. Kind of like Samuel or lots of other prophets.

You are bearing false witness about the Saints and I rebuke you for it.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie2000, on 22 Oct 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Does your faith include God giving His salvational grace to those who obey Him?
 
Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

It is given to those who put their trust in him.

 

 

Is Acts2:38 an example of those who put their trust in Him?

[dberrie2000]

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

Was this their belief?

 

Acts 16:30-34----King James Version (KJV)

³⁰ And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

³¹ And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

³² And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

³³ And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

³⁴ And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

 

Please do notice they were "believing" after they had been baptized.

[Flyonthewall]

The idea that people will have a chance to hear the gospel after death, and repent, if they haven't heard it on earth isn't implied, indicated, or referred to anywhere in the Bible, which is why I asked.

It is there, and I have showed you that it is there, but you have gone to great lengths to say that the words don't mean what they say. If that works for you....

 

Done that many times. If it stated what you are claiming then instead of a reference to creation just following the statement that people are without excuse, there would be a follow up reference to their specific knowledge of the gospel. But it's not there. Instead there is a reference to how creation leads us to God himself. That his invisible qualities are seen by creation alone.

Answer me this - To whom is the "they" in verse 20 referring to? There are a lot of they's and them's strung along in that chapter so I can understand if you get lost.

 

Your claim is that a preacher (with the proper authority as you define it) is necessary. Yet, those weren't necessary for these many instances. So I guess it's actually not necessary now is it?

Which many instances are you referring to?

You claim that a general belief in God is not sufficient. You haven't provided scripture that states that. Instead you've provided scripture that details how we are saved through Jesus. But, what's to stop Jesus from saving people who truly seek him without specific knowledge of all these details?

As many examples have shown, Jesus can reach out to people. And as Romans 1 clearly states that people are without excuse because of God's glory as shown through creation.

I have provided scripture that states there is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith, faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by preaching, and preachers have to be sent.

A belief in someone or something other than Jesus will not save anyone. In order to be saved by Jesus, you must accept His gospel. In order to accept His gospel, you must hear it.

If someone does not have the opportunity in mortality to hear the gospel, it is preached to those that are dead - just like is states in scriptures.

No forcing a meaning onto the words to fit an agenda, but it flows naturally and harmoniously.

[Flyonthewall]

I agree with you that those translations don't agree with the NIV, while some others do. I also agree that the context is key. Verse 5 isn't key though. We both agree that God will judge the living and dead. Key is verse 6. Let's look at it again.

"6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Notice that God will judge them according to men in the flesh, not based on what they did after death (when they have no body), but what they did in the flesh on Earth. In essence, if you're running for a touch down and you run out of bounds to get to the end zone, it doesn't count. You are only judged based on what happens on the field. Same with God, as this verse demonstrates, we are only judged based on what we do in the flesh.

Nobody is saying that anyone will be judged based on anything other than works in this life, but that does not negate the need to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. All men will be judged according to the flesh, just like it says, but it is only accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ that allows anyone to live according to God in the Spirit.

Let's see. The parable of the ten talents, when the owner came home he said, yeah you guys that didn't use those talents (in the flesh, on earth) have a second chance now that I'm back.

The parable of the 10 talents outlines that we will be judged by what we do with what we are given.

What is clear is that repentance after death isn't taught in the NT.

If you are looking for a specific wording then you will miss a lot of what the scriptures have to say. Preaching the gospel to every creature is taught in the NT. There are more people that have never heard the gospel than have heard it. Do they just never get to hear it before final judgment?

Essentially you are saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ is irrelevant because nobody needs to hear it or even accept it.

[Flyonthewall]

KevinG, Mormons put their trust in Joseph Smith who wasn't there with the apostles but has usurped their teaching in many areas of doctrine.

No, Joseph Smith was not there with the Apostles, but Peter, James, and John visited him, as well as John the Baptist.

What Joseph did under the tutelage of Jesus Christ was restore the truth that had been usurped by others and mingled with the philosophies of men and created their own versions of the "truth".

[danielwoods]

That's good to know because I put my trust in Jesus Christ my Savior. Then I guess this Mormon is a Christian (along with millions more).

So in your missionary zeal you will share this with the ministers who claim we are not Christian so they can stop wasting their time and go find more lost souls, right?

 

I can only do what I can do. I live/work/play with Mormons, Christians, Gay, Straight, Atheist, non-religious to me they are all people to love. God does his work, and do what I can do, which admittedly isn't much. 

[danielwoods]

 

dberrie2000, on 22 Oct 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

 

 

 

Is Acts2:38 an example of those who put their trust in Him?

 

 

Yes I believe so. 

[danielwoods]

Was this their belief?

 

Acts 16:30-34----King James Version (KJV)

³⁰ And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

³¹ And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

³² And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

³³ And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

³⁴ And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

 

Please do notice they were "believing" after they had been baptized.

 

It is a description of what happened. 

 

The idea you seem to be putting forth is that they were believing after they had been baptized. Which if this is your argument, then what motivated them to be baptized then? 

[teddyaware]

KevinG, Mormons put their trust in Joseph Smith who wasn't there with the apostles but has usurped their teaching in many areas of doctrine.

I'm curious to know if you believe a professed Christian of the New Testament era could reject the Apostolic leadership of Peter, James, John and Paul and still be considered a true follower of Jesus Christ?.

[danielwoods]

It is there, and I have showed you that it is there, but you have gone to great lengths to say that the words don't mean what they say. If that works for you....

I've only been analyzing what the words say. What the author intended to say. The difference is I don't care. I don't have an agenda. I am not trying to defend a church position. I don't have other teachings or prophets teachings that I'm trying to read into each passage. I just want to know what the author meant to say. If the LDS interpretation was correct, I'd say, "Praise God, I found out the truth.

 

 

Answer me this - To whom is the "they" in verse 20 referring to? There are a lot of they's and them's strung along in that chapter so I can understand if you get lost.

Romans 1:17 For in it [the Gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen [to all], being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

 

 

Seems pretty clear that "they" in verse 20 is referring back to all Men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. 

 

Which many instances are you referring to?

Paul, Nephites, Joseph Smith, Muslim dude in the article...

 

I have provided scripture that states there is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith, faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by preaching, and preachers have to be sent.

A belief in someone or something other than Jesus will not save anyone. In order to be saved by Jesus, you must accept His gospel. In order to accept His gospel, you must hear it.

If someone does not have the opportunity in mortality to hear the gospel, it is preached to those that are dead - just like is states in scriptures.

No forcing a meaning onto the words to fit an agenda, but it flows naturally and harmoniously.

Actually, what you have stated isn't in the scriptures. It never states, "If someone does not have the opportunity in mortality to hear the gospel, it is preached to those that are dead."

It actually states the opposite as seen above.

[Anakin7]

    Just returned for a brief moment to read coolrok's polemical attack/accusations, forgive him Father for he knows not what he posts.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[KevinG]

My intent in apologetics is always to find and share the more accurate portrayal of the truth.

I wonder if accusations of sinister motives and demonic origins of my beliefs aren't some weird kind of projection. I guess assuming good intent is safest. Thank you Anakin.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie2000, on 22 Oct 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

 

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

Is Acts2:38 an example of those who put their trust in Him?

 

 

 

Yes I believe so. 

 

 

 Then obedience is an integral component to faith--and God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him.

 

That fits the LDS theology well--but it renders the faith alone theology false. Faith alone is a theology of salvation through faith without works.

Edited October 23, 2014 by dberrie2000

[Storm Rider]

KevinG, Mormons put their trust in Joseph Smith who wasn't there with the apostles but has usurped their teaching in many areas of doctrine.

 

This is a bizarre thing to say; I put my trust in Joseph Smith?  When I pray, I pray to God the Father in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ.  When I read the scripture - I am re-reading the NT again - I study about Christ the same as I do when I read the Book of Mormon.  All my study and my prayers are centered around building and strengthening my relationship with God.  Joseph Smith plays almost no role in my daily life or my daily spiritual life.  

 

When you say such statements that are so devoid of any knowledge or understanding of my LDS beliefs you only strengthen my thinking that you don't know me, my religion, my beliefs, or my Church.  Talk less, listen more and quit trying to tell me what I believe; you obviously have no clue.