Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[danielwoods]

. . . we never existed before God gave us life.

Show me in the Bible where it says that.

Gen. 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Before that, man is not a living being. God gives the breath of life, or spirit to man.

[Vance]

The question is how does change happen? 

 

Does it happen by our own hard work, or does it happen by letting God work on our hearts and lives?

I think that there are three options.

1) We don't invite God into our lives and we attempt to do all the work ourselves. (This is what EV anti-Mormons always and falsely accuse us of. I personally don't see this option as being possible.)

2) We work WITH God to make ourselves better.

3) We sit back and expect God to do it all.

Now, given those three choices which one do you ascribe to yourself and which do you ascribe to us?

 

If it happened by our own hard work, then God wouldn't be necessary, and the result would be something that we did.

Right, because, as we all know. If we plant a garden and take good care of it and it produces abundantly, God had NOTHING to do with it, right?

The transformative change that God does in our hearts and lives, is something that no man can create.

So our agency is destroyed?

That is the point of difference I am making. 

 

Two people can be "doing" the same things, reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc. Right activities, yet if one is surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis and one is not, the difference between the two, from God's vantage point, is enormous.

How can someone be "reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc" and NOT be "surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis"?

The love of God changes us, the same way two people in love are devoted and do things for each other as a result of that love.

And yet, the scriptures teach,

Luke 1:And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

. . .

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

[Vance]

Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Sorry but it doesn't support your statement,

As for your misunderstanding of the Trinity. If Jesus wasn't infinite God, his sacrifice couldn't save everyone.

I am not saying that the sacrifice of Jesus doesn't save us, it is the rest of your statement that isn't supported.

[Vance]

Gen. 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Before that, man is not a living being. God gives the breath of life, or spirit to man.

That does NOT address the issue.

Let us look at some scripture.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, the body that God created from the dust, did not become a living soul until God put the spirit into the body. But we have been talking about the spirit here.

So, where is the verse that states that our spirit did not exist before God gave us life?

[cdowis]

Daniel,

 

It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who is convinced that he has the inerrant interpretation of the scriptures.  Christ promised the disciples the Holy Spirit after his resurrection, and it is "obvious" to you this explains why Christ did not meet the Father in paradise.  I pointed out the defect with this logic, and you simply ignored it.

 

It really is impossible to talk with you and I give you the final word.

Edited November 3, 2014 by cdowis

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

Two people can be "doing" the same things, reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc. Right activities, yet if one is surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis and one is not, the difference between the two, from God's vantage point, is enormous.

 

How can someone be "reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc" and NOT be "surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis"?

How is this not a work?

 

And this is literally the first time I have heard an Evangelical tell us that we need to do something on a daily basis. I guess I'll take what I can get. I agree, that our walk with God is on a daily basis. And we can fall from grace at any time if we do not do those things that continually please Him.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Daniel,

 

It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who is convinced that he has the inerrant interpretation of the scriptures.  Christ promised the disciples the Holy Spirit after his resurrection, and it is "obvious" to you this explains why Christ did not meet the Father in paradise.  I pointed out the defect with this logic, and you simply ignored it.

 

It really is impossible to talk with you and I give you the final word.

Now you are starting to see why we respond the way we do to him.  Because he simply ignores what is being pointed out.

[Flyonthewall]

Emphasizing those things we do, while ignoring the work that God does, which results in those works, doesn't negate what is actually going on. We don't change ourselves. We don't save ourselves. It's God who works in us. We simply let him.

Ignoring Jesus' instructions to us does not invite Him in nor changes us.

I beg to differ with you. We can and do change ourselves. Jesus magnifies our efforts.

If Jesus is the only one that can change us, then if someone does not change, then it is Jesus' fault, and by extension, all who end up in hell are there because Jesus did not try hard enough.

[danielwoods]

I think that there are three options.

1) We don't invite God into our lives and we attempt to do all the work ourselves. (This is what EV anti-Mormons always and falsely accuse us of. I personally don't see this option as being possible.)

2) We work WITH God to make ourselves better.

3) We sit back and expect God to do it all.

Now, given those three choices which one do you ascribe to yourself and which do you ascribe to us?

I think I fit in a 2a spot. Where we are working "with" God by allowing him to work in our hearts, which includes studying his word.

Where do I ascribe the LDS? Not sure. I hear some emphasize work (as in things we have to do) and other don't. I think there is some degree of variability in the LDS view.

 

Right, because, as we all know. If we plant a garden and take good care of it and it produces abundantly, God had NOTHING to do with it, right?

So our agency is destroyed?

Our agency is surrendered when we give it to him (of course, to the extend that we do that).

How can someone be "reading scriptures, sincere prayer, going to church, etc" and NOT be "surrendering of ones heart to God on a daily basis"?

Two extreme examples set out as to make a point.

And yet, the scriptures teach,

Luke 1:And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

. . .

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Very good. Nothing here negates the fact that it's God who is doing the work in our hearts and lives.

[danielwoods]

Sorry but it doesn't support your statement,

I am not saying that the sacrifice of Jesus doesn't save us, it is the rest of your statement that isn't supported.

I think it does.

Notice, that sacrifices that priests make "can never take away sins." But, by the one sacrifice of Jesus, he made us perfect forever. This couldn't have been done if Jesus wasn't the infinite/eternal/almighty God. All other sacrifices are insufficient to take away our sin forever. 

[teddyaware]

I think I fit in a 2a spot. Where we are working "with" God by allowing him to work in our hearts, which includes studying his word.

Where do I ascribe the LDS? Not sure. I hear some emphasize work (as in things we have to do) and other don't. I think there is some degree of variability in the LDS view.

 

Our agency is surrendered when we give it to him (of course, to the extend that we do that).

Two extreme examples set out as to make a point.

Very good. Nothing here negates the fact that it's God who is doing the work in our hearts and lives.

The Book of Mormon teaches the very same doctrine you espouse -- to wit that a good work cannot be considered a good work unless that work is first inspired by and then given life by means of the spiritual gifts and powers God. When works are performed that are devoid of the presence of the spiritual gifts and powers of God, they stand lifeless and alone as what Paul calls "dead works."

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10)

According to the Book of Mormon, merely going through the motions by only outwardly performing works of righteousness is not enough. In order for man to perform works approved by God, those works can only be properly performed in righteousness by means of the spiritual gifts and powers of God. Therefore, because God is the one who ultimately inspires and empowers His saints to do His will, He is the One who deserves and receives the praise and glory, for men can only be made righteous by the indwelling of presence of God through the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

So why quarrel when we actually agree? 

Edited November 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[Vance]

I think it does.

Notice, that sacrifices that priests make "can never take away sins." But, by the one sacrifice of Jesus, he made us perfect forever. This couldn't have been done if Jesus wasn't the infinite/eternal/almighty God.

Your conclusion does not logically follow.

We continue to exist forever, does that make us "infinite/eternal" as well?

All other sacrifices are insufficient to take away our sin forever.

I have not disputed that.

[Vance]

The Book of Mormon also teaches.

Omni 1:25 And it came to pass that I began to be old; and, having no seed, and knowing king Benjamin to be a just man before the Lord, wherefore, I shall deliver up these plates unto him, exhorting all men to come unto God, the Holy One of Israel, and believe in prophesying, and in revelations, and in the ministering of angels, and in the gift of speaking with tongues, and in the gift of interpreting languages, and in all things which are good; for there is nothing which is good save it comes from the Lord; and that which is evil cometh from the devil.

[Tacenda]

The BoM takes after the Bible. I think Danielwoods has a problem with the other scriptures in Mormonism. BoM doesn't have most of the doctrine dealing with works.

[Vance]

Very good. Nothing here negates the fact that it's God who is doing the work in our hearts and lives.

Humm,

Luke 1:And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

. . .

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It is interesting that none of those verse express or imply that "it's God who is doing the work". Rather, it is clearly crediting the individual for CHOOSING to do good/living righteously.

Why do you want to take the credit away from those that the Bible clearly gives it to?

Now,

lest you want to claim that I don't believe that God helped them in their efforts.

Mosiah 2:20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

[Vance]

The BoM takes after the Bible. I think Danielwoods has a problem with the other scriptures in Mormonism. BoM doesn't have most of the doctrine dealing with works.

Sure it does. When Paul is talking about works, he is talking about the works of the law of Moses.

Mosiah 3:14 Yet the Lord God saw that his people were a stiffnecked people, and he appointed unto them a law, even the law of Moses.

15 And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of his blood.

Mosiah 12:27 Ye have not applied your hearts to understanding; therefore, ye have not been wise. Therefore, what teach ye this people?

28 And they said: We teach the law of Moses.

29 And again he said unto them: If ye teach the law of Moses why do ye not keep it? Why do ye set your hearts upon riches? Why do ye commit whoredoms and spend your strength with harlots, yea, and cause this people to commit sin, that the Lord has cause to send me to prophesy against this people, yea, even a great evil against this people?

30 Know ye not that I speak the truth? Yea, ye know that I speak the truth; and you ought to tremble before God.

31 And it shall come to pass that ye shall be smitten for your iniquities, for ye have said that ye teach the law of Moses. And what know ye concerning the law of Moses? Doth salvation come by the law of Moses? What say ye?

32 And they answered and said that salvation did come by the law of Moses.

33 But now Abinadi said unto them: I know if ye keep the commandments of God ye shall be saved; yea, if ye keep the commandments which the Lord delivered unto Moses in the mount of Sinai, saying:

34 I am the Lord thy God, who hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

35 Thou shalt have no other God before me.

36 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing in heaven above, or things which are in the earth beneath.

37 Now Abinadi said unto them, Have ye done all this? I say unto you, Nay, ye have not. And have ye taught this people that they should do all these things? I say unto you, Nay, ye have not.

. . .

13:11 And now I read unto you the remainder of the commandments of God, for I perceive that they are not written in your hearts; I perceive that ye have studied and taught iniquity the most part of your lives.

12 And now, ye remember that I said unto you: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of things which are in heaven above, or which are in the earth beneath, or which are in the water under the earth.

13 And again: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me;

14 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

15 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

16 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

17 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;

18 But the seventh day, the sabbath of the Lord thy God, thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

19 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

20 Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

21 Thou shalt not kill.

22 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal.

23 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

24 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor anything that is thy neighbor’s.

25 And it came to pass that after Abinadi had made an end of these sayings that he said unto them: Have ye taught this people that they should observe to do all these things for to keep these commandments?

26 I say unto you, Nay; for if ye had, the Lord would not have caused me to come forth and to prophesy evil concerning this people.

27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

Abinadi had to fight the same false doctrine (salvation comes by the works of the law of Moses) as Paul fought.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Vance

[Anakin7]

       True LDS/Mormon Christians Obsession with Jesus Christ -  http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/01/mormonism-obsessed-with-christ  just an observation.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[Anakin7]

       LDS Doctrinal view of True Grace - http://www.mormonwiki.com/Grace_of_God

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

        Anakin7

Edited November 4, 2014 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

       And True LDS Doctrine on Justification  http://mormonwiki.com/Justification_2

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

[danielwoods]

That does NOT address the issue.

Let us look at some scripture.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, the body that God created from the dust, did not become a living soul until God put the spirit into the body. But we have been talking about the spirit here.

So, where is the verse that states that our spirit did not exist before God gave us life?

 

Notice it says, "and the man became a living being."

 

Before that, man wasn't living, meaning he didn't even exist. 

 

Your argument from silence can be used to argue that pink poka dotted elephants are flying behind jupiter. 

[danielwoods]

Daniel,

 

It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who is convinced that he has the inerrant interpretation of the scriptures.  Christ promised the disciples the Holy Spirit after his resurrection, and it is "obvious" to you this explains why Christ did not meet the Father in paradise.  I pointed out the defect with this logic, and you simply ignored it.

 

It really is impossible to talk with you and I give you the final word.

 

1) I never have claimed to have an inerrant interpretation. 

 

2) I didn't ignore your "logic" I disagreed with it. 

 

3) I pointed out that Paradise was heaven to the jews. Jesus' statement that He hadn't ascended yet to the Father was a reference to his work, that he was yet to do. He hadn't even done it yet after showing himself to many people (Acts 1). He didn't mean that he hadn't seen or met the father after his death. His point to Mary was that she needed to let go of him, physically, so he could continue his work/mission. She had lost him once, and was afraid of losing him again. 

[danielwoods]

The Book of Mormon teaches the very same doctrine you espouse -- to wit that a good work cannot be considered a good work unless that work is first inspired by and then given life by means of the spiritual gifts and powers God. When works are performed that are devoid of the presence of the spiritual gifts and powers of God, they stand lifeless and alone as what Paul calls "dead works."

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Moroni 10)

According to the Book of Mormon, merely going through the motions by only outwardly performing works of righteousness is not enough. In order for man to perform works approved by God, those works can only be properly performed in righteousness by means of the spiritual gifts and powers of God. Therefore, because God is the one who ultimately inspires and empowers His saints to do His will, He is the One who deserves and receives the praise and glory, for men can only be made righteous by the indwelling of presence of God through the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

So why quarrel when we actually agree?

 

You call it quarreling? I don't. To me it's a discussion, and in any discussion where two people disagree, there will be disagreements. However, without a discussion, we may never know why we disagree. 

 

To me it's not a negative thing. I learn the most from people I disagree with. 

 

If we agreed on everything, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the points we disagree about. 

 

For example, you use the word, "ultimately" as in "God is the one who ultimately inspires and empowers His saints to do His will…"

I've heard many LDS say it this way. I wouldn't use the word ultimately. I would just say it's God who does everything, all we ever do is let him. It's his Universe, and all the forces therein, it's his Oxygen, etc. etc… The very fact that we are able to do anything is by his design and grace. So, not only does he inspire and empower, but he does everything else too. All we do is let him. As Jesus said, "Why call me good? Only God is good."

[danielwoods]

Your conclusion does not logically follow.

We continue to exist forever, does that make us "infinite/eternal" as well?

 

No. Only God is eternal. We have a beginning point, where God created us, and we live forever, which is called immortal not Eternal. 

 

I am not sure I can make it any more basic than I have already. If a mortal man was able to save all mankind forever, then I would think that God would have done it that way. Since Jesus was the only one who could have saved us, the conclusion seems to follow that his nature (being infinite/Eternal God) was key in making it happen. As it says, "the lamb that was slain before the foundations of the Earth." 

 

In essence, our sin that keeps us from God isn't wiped away by mere mortal actions because we are separated from an eternal God, an eternal sacrifice was necessary. 

[Vance]

Notice it says, "and the man became a living being."

Right, when his spirit, which pre-existed, was joined to his body, Adam became a living soul. And when his spirit, which pre-existed, left his body, he died.

 

Before that, man wasn't living,

True, but that doesn't mean that he did not exist in spirit.

. . . meaning he didn't even exist.

Nope, it doesn't mean that at all.

 

Your argument from silence can be used to argue that pink poka dotted elephants are flying behind jupiter.

Your argument is based upon faulty logic.

It is from silence in that NO WHERE does it say that the spirit of man did not exist prior to entering the body.

(BTW, Heb 2 clearly indicates that, just like the spirit of Christ pre-existed His mortal birth, so our spirits, also pre-existed our mortal birth.)

[Vance]

No. Only God is eternal. We have a beginning point, where God created us, and we live forever, which is called immortal not Eternal.

I suspect that you are not grasping the inconsistencies in your logic. 

 

I am not sure I can make it any more basic than I have already. If a mortal man was able to save all mankind forever, then I would think that God would have done it that way.

So, Jesus was not a "mortal man". Then how did He die?

Since Jesus was the only one who could have saved us, the conclusion seems to follow that his nature (being infinite/Eternal God) was key in making it happen.

It was his nature, being sinless.

1 Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

As it says, "the lamb that was slain before the foundations of the Earth."

Which is figurative speech, not literal.

BTW, an infinite amount of time lapsed long BEFORE "the foundations of the Earth" were laid.