Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Calm]

This scripture has to be interpreted in light of the fact that there is only one true God. And as such, there are a couple of different ways to view it.

Jesus was sent by God the father, yet both are the one true God because of God's infinite nature.

"How" can this be? As I said before, it will always ultimately be called a mystery, because our understanding of an infinite being will always be viewed through our limited finite mind.

I am fine if you want to call it a mystery and believe such, but the Word itself is not saying that. It is saying the One True God sent Christ, not that the one True God came in the form of Christ (or however you would prefer it to be phrase). This scripture to me clearly contradicts that interpretation. Other verses are more ambiguous, but this vers makes no sense in conjunction with that concept and as such the belief needs to be imposed on the words to receive that understanding and remove the intent of what was said IMO.

I make no claim that LDS don't impose their understanding on scripture in many cases, but to me this particular imposed understanding is contradictory to what the words state. Contradiction in and of itself does not prove to me you are wrong, just that this scripture in no way supports your claim as you apparently think it does. There must be others that are better for your purpose.

Edited December 11, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

When we are referencing God's nature, ultimately it ends in the unknown or mystery. For example, the LDS can't explain how a resurrected body is able to simply appear and disappear, or fly through the air? There are many things that are unknown. We often call them mysteries.

There is a difference between not being able to explain because of a lack of information and a lack of an explanation of an apparent contradiction.

[Canadaigua]

Do you believe that God is three people/persons?

You are simply trying to point out why you don't believe in the "Evangelical" God which simply affirms the fact that the Mormon gods are not the same as the Evangelical God.  

 

Care to discuss the differences and why Evangelicals say that you believe in different gods?

[Canadaigua]

 

We believe in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ as the Bible describes.

 

1. Eph. 1: 2-3, 17
     2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
     3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
         •  •  •
     17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
2. 1 Thes. 1: 1, 3
     1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
         •  •  •
     3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
3. 2 Cor. 1: 2-3
     2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
     3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4. Col. 1: 2-3
     2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
     3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
5. 1 Thes. 3: 11, 13
     11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
         •  •  •
     13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
6. 2 Thes. 1: 1-2
     1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
     2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
7. Rom. 1: 7
     7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8. Rom. 15: 6
     6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. 1 Cor. 1: 3
     3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
10. 1 Cor. 8: 6
      6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
11. 2 Cor. 11: 31
      31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
12. Gal. 1: 3
      3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
13. Eph. 5: 20
      20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
14. Eph. 6: 23
      23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Philip. 1: 2
      2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Philip. 2: 11
      11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
17. 2 Thes. 2: 16
      16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
18. 1 Tim. 1: 2
      2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
19. 2 Tim. 1: 2
      2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
20. Titus 1: 4
      4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
21. Philem. 1: 3
      3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
22. 1 Pet. 1: 3
      3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
23. 2 Jn. 1: 3
      3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

 

LDS such as yourself believe in many gods which is polytheism.  This is certainly different than what Evangelical Christians believe which is in one God or monotheism.

[Canadaigua]

There is a difference between not being able to explain because of a lack of information and a lack of an explanation of an apparent contradiction.

So you would affirm that the LDS gods are different than the God that Evangelicals believe in.  Correct?

[danielwoods]

This really doesn't really help. Why is green green? Because of it's infinite nature. Does that really help? No. It really says nothing that makes any sense.

 

I will give you your belief that it is a mystery. I can accept that.

 

We know why green appears green. 

 

What is difficult is to articulate something that we don't have words for. 

 

We don't have words to describe an infinite being with any degree of specificity. 

[Calm]

So you would affirm that the LDS gods are different than the God that Evangelicals believe in.  Correct?

We believe in the God the Father taught us in the Bible, do you?

[danielwoods]

I am fine if you want to call it a mystery and believe such, but the Word itself is not saying that. It is saying the One True God sent Christ, not that the one True God came in the form of Christ (or however you would prefer it to be phrase). This scripture to me clearly contradicts that interpretation. Other verses are more ambiguous, but this vers makes no sense in conjunction with that concept and as such the belief needs to be imposed on the words to receive that understanding and remove the intent of what was said IMO.

The statement, "the One True God sent Christ.." is stated by Christ himself (according to John). You are saying that this contradicts the view that there is but one true God, of which Christ is also, right?

The statement is not different from John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....v.14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."

How can this be? How can someone be with God, and then at the same time be God? Clearly he's referring to Jesus who was made flesh. Same problem as the one true God sent Christ (who is also God).

OR John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father..."

How can this be? How can Jesus be in the bosom of the Father and standing there with them at the same time?

OR John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

How can this be? How can Jesus say that he's existing right now, and before Abraham was? It doesn't make sense unless Jesus is infinite God.

And notice Jesus prays for his disciples: John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

Notice, that Jesus is describing something that goes beyond our physical understanding of things. The Father is in Christ, and he in the Father, and all believers are in them. This makes no sense if one simply thinks he's talking about it in a physical sense. How is Christ in the Father, and the Father is in Christ and we are in both of them at the same time? Yet, all of us retain our individuality? 

 

My point in referencing all this is to show that the trinity explains what is written, but yet it's still a difficult mystery to understand because it's describing an infinite being that is beyond our ability to understand fully. 

 

I make no claim that LDS don't impose their understanding on scripture in many cases, but to me this particular imposed understanding is contradictory to what the words state. Contradiction in and of itself does not prove to me you are wrong, just that this scripture in no way supports your claim as you apparently think it does. There must be others that are better for your purpose.

 

Maybe the contradiction is an indication of a deeper meaning that is missed. 

 

[Canadaigua]

We believe in the God the Father taught us in the Bible, do you?

But don't forget that you believe in other gods as well.  Jesus is a separate and distinct god.  The Holy Ghost is a separate and distinct god of Mormonism.  Not to mention all of the other gods that are out there.  So we do not believe in the same God.  From your own posts it is clear that you believe this but you are having a hard time admitting it for some reason.

 

You are now designated as a troll. Posters please report if you want him/her banned.

[pogi]

But don't forget that you believe in other gods as well.

 

Please see post 1887.  I already addressed this, but you neglected to answer my question in that post.

Edited December 12, 2014 by pogi

[Calm]

The statement, "the One True God sent Christ.." is stated by Christ himself (according to John). You are saying that this contradicts the view that there is but one true God, of which Christ is also, right?

 

And therefore Christ is saying that "you, the one true God, sent me".  Again this supports the idea that there is God the Father who sent his Son.

[danielwoods]

And therefore Christ is saying that "you, the one true God, sent me".  Again this supports the idea that there is God the Father who sent his Son.

 

Your statement seems to indicate that you think that the doctrine of the trinity nullifies the individuality of each person of God? 

 

While on the surface I understand this misunderstanding. The individuality of each person is quite intact, just as ours remains intact, even though we are "in Christ". 

[ERayR]

But don't forget that you believe in other gods as well.  Jesus is a separate and distinct god.  The Holy Ghost is a separate and distinct god of Mormonism.  Not to mention all of the other gods that are out there.  So we do not believe in the same God.  From your own posts it is clear that you believe this but you are having a hard time admitting it for some reason.

 

No problem at all admitting it.  You seem, however, to have a problem acknowledging the scriptures where Jesus teaches we are gods.  Come on the LDS concept is biblical it is yours that is not.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We know why green appears green. 

 

What is difficult is to articulate something that we don't have words for. 

 

We don't have words to describe an infinite being with any degree of specificity. 

Of course we know why green is green. That is not the point. What you are doing is trying to explain sumoething with words that don't really explain anything.

 

Weather something is infinite or not is irrelevant. We are all infinite. We will never cease to exist. What we are trying to do (again) is understand how God the Father and Christ are one God monotheisiticly.

 

There really is not way to describe it because it is a logical contradiction. That is a reality. You can ignore the contradiction and call it a mystery, which I granted, was fine. Just don't pretend there is not a contradiction.

[Gervin]

 

There really is not way to describe it because it is a logical contradiction. That is a reality. You can ignore the contradiction and call it a mystery, which I granted, was fine. Just don't pretend there is not a contradiction.

It certainly is a mystery, but it is not a contradiction, as Anthony Storm writes on his Kierkegaard site (my bold):

 

Kierkegaard's main concern was with knowledge of God through faith. Faith is the individual's reaction to the inherent paradox of Christianity. Since essential truth is far beyond our comprehension to the extent that we cannot approach it objectively, it appears to us in the form of a paradox. A paradox is a tension of sorts between at least two focal points. In terms of religious paradox, we may refer to the Christian doctrine of Jesus as fully divine and fully human. No one can comprehend how such a thing could be. However, it is not a flat contradiction. A logical contradiction posits two mutually exclusive premises, such as "James is a man and is not a man", where the term "man" means the same thing on both sides of the statement. This point is frequently misunderstood. Kierkegaard would not have us believe, or come into relation with, the impossible or the contradictory. Furthermore, any attempt to remove the paradoxical is either an attempt to objectify what we cannot know objectively, because we are in the process of becoming, or, to dismiss the role of faith as silliness. This, again, would imply that we can understand something to such a degree that we could dismiss it absolutely, as if we dwelled outside of the system (or the universe)—as if from an objective standpoint.

[danielwoods]

Of course we know why green is green. That is not the point. What you are doing is trying to explain sumoething with words that don't really explain anything.

 

Weather something is infinite or not is irrelevant. We are all infinite. We will never cease to exist. What we are trying to do (again) is understand how God the Father and Christ are one God monotheisiticly.

 

There really is not way to describe it because it is a logical contradiction. That is a reality. You can ignore the contradiction and call it a mystery, which I granted, was fine. Just don't pretend there is not a contradiction.

 

Right. The typical response to this idea is rejection. "That's not possible…" Or "That's not true…" Or "it's a logical contradiction" and "Don't pretend there is not a contradiction." 

 

Well, when confronted with truth that appears contradictory, what does one do? 

 

One option is to redefine the truth so that it makes sense. 

 

the other option is to accept that not all truth will be completely understandable to our finite minds. 

[Calm]

Your statement seems to indicate that you think that the doctrine of the trinity nullifies the individuality of each person of God?

While on the surface I understand this misunderstanding. The individuality of each person is quite intact, just as ours remains intact, even though we are "in Christ".

No, I am quite aware of the three persons in one being, etc. concept.

Here I am merely dealing with your claim made for this particular scripture,not the Trinity or whether the Bible supports its concepts in general.

You claimed this scripture supported your interpretation of the nature of God. But then you have to explain what the nature of God is and how it changes the meaning of the sentence. The verse only works for you by reading into it the Trinitarian concept of God. Thus the verse itself demonstrates nothing for you. You should stick to other scriptures if you want to demonstrate the Trinitarian understanding of the "oneness" of God is present in the Bible and does not have to be read into it by redefining the way language is used.

I don't have a problem for believers to do this, LDS do the same in some cases IMO, but using those those specialised interpretations to prove the interpretation is correct is circular.

Define what you mean by "in Christ" if you would.

Edited December 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It certainly is a mystery, but it is not a contradiction, as Anthony Storm writes on his Kierkegaard site (my bold):

 

Kierkegaard's main concern was with knowledge of God through faith. Faith is the individual's reaction to the inherent paradox of Christianity. Since essential truth is far beyond our comprehension to the extent that we cannot approach it objectively, it appears to us in the form of a paradox. A paradox is a tension of sorts between at least two focal points. In terms of religious paradox, we may refer to the Christian doctrine of Jesus as fully divine and fully human. No one can comprehend how such a thing could be. However, it is not a flat contradiction. A logical contradiction posits two mutually exclusive premises, such as "James is a man and is not a man", where the term "man" means the same thing on both sides of the statement. This point is frequently misunderstood. Kierkegaard would not have us believe, or come into relation with, the impossible or the contradictory. Furthermore, any attempt to remove the paradoxical is either an attempt to objectify what we cannot know objectively, because we are in the process of becoming, or, to dismiss the role of faith as silliness. This, again, would imply that we can understand something to such a degree that we could dismiss it absolutely, as if we dwelled outside of the system (or the universe)—as if from an objective standpoint.

Ok, this really doesn nothing to explain the monothesiem of God the Father and Jesus. All it has done is assert that one being can be fully 2 different things. I am not sure that is very useful either.

 

The bible never says that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. Not that it really matters. That statement really doesn't mean anything. It is the same thing as what I was saying about green. Green is green because of its eternal nature. What does an eternal nature mean and what does it have to do with 3 beings being a Monothesitic God?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But don't forget that you believe in other gods as well.  Jesus is a separate and distinct god.  The Holy Ghost is a separate and distinct god of Mormonism.  Not to mention all of the other gods that are out there.  So we do not believe in the same God.  From your own posts it is clear that you believe this but you are having a hard time admitting it for some reason.

 

You are now designated as a troll. Posters please report if you want him/her banned.

Rofl.

 

And yet you cannot describe Jesus and God being monothesistic in any meaningful way.

 

Your post is useful how? What am I to get from it?

[danielwoods]

No, I am quite aware of the three persons in one being, etc. concept.

Here I am merely dealing with your claim made for this particular scripture,not the Trinity or whether the Bible supports its concepts in general.

You claimed this scripture supported your interpretation of the nature of God. But then you have to explain what the nature of God is and how it changes the meaning of the sentence. The verse only works for you by reading into it the Trinitarian concept of God. Thus the verse itself demonstrates nothing for you. You should stick to other scriptures if you want to demonstrate the Trinitarian understanding of the "oneness" of God is present in the Bible and does not have to be read into it by redefining the way language is used.

The LDS claim that there are many Gods. This verse denies that claim. "One true God." The verse then goes on to state that this one true God sent christ to us, who is also God. That's what it states, right?

The nature of God is where the problem resides. If the nature of God isn't singular, then the LDS are right. If it is singular, then the LDS are incorrect. IF his nature is singular, then how can the one send another, who is also the one? The answer is the trinity. Three persons, but one being, who is God. This concept also solves the riddles of the other passages I quoted previously.

 

I don't have a problem for believers to do this, LDS do the same in some cases IMO, but using those those specialised interpretations to prove the interpretation is correct is circular.

Define what you mean by "in Christ" if you would.

"In Christ" is a description of the state of all believers. Jesus used it in John 17 and Paul in numerous places. It is a description of the spiritual state of all believers.

Edited December 12, 2014 by danielwoods

[Calm]

The word God can be used in multiple ways and may mean different things depending on the words the English term was translated from.

You believe that God the Father, God the Son,God the Spirit are three persons/individuals. In order to deal with the biblical label "one, true God" you (or rather those who developed the theory) created a new definition of "a being" by stipulating there is a fundamental, incomprehensible difference between an infinite being (which God is) and a finite being (in your view, man). An infinite being must be able to have multiple individuals if the scriptures are to be reconciled, in this view. A finite being is only one individual in this view. This is how the mystery has been defined (if not explained given it is contrary as far as I am aware to mortal understanding at this point). I am not using the term "mystery" to mean "puzzle" but in the religious sense.

If I am wrong, please point out where.

OTOH, LDS while also believing in God the Father,God the Son and God the Spirit as three persons/individuals whose roles are described throughout scripture, we have chosen not to create a new definition but instead assume that at certain places what is translated as "God" is plural (such as Eloheim) or is a collective noun (along the lines of the Divine Council as described in the Bible). We choose to use the term Godhead at times. "God" is thus at times a name for the three individuals who hold the office of God together, but for us IMO "God" is not a unique being, but a title of a category or even better IMO a family name/role. Thus we can also speak of our belief in the one, true God and we no more believe that verse denies our belief than you do, because it can either be speaking of God the Father (the usual interpretation) who is the God that all in the Divine Council obey and align their wills and desires with (become one with in heart and mind) or it could be speaking of the Godhead who sent one of their members to fulfill his unique mission.

Because of your insistence that God is three individuals, I could claim that you believe in many Gods just as you claim LDS do. If I made that claim, it would be neither unique or startling given this claim has been around almost as long as there have been Christians as far as i can tell and in general this is how Jews and Muslims who see God as not only one being, but one individual dismiss the Trinitarian claim as nonscriptural and blasphemous.

However, I am quite comfortable to allow you to define your understanding of what "God" means and what the phrase "one true God" implies for that understanding and I will defend your choice to label your faith montheistic even if I believe you are wrong in your understanding of the nature of God. I claim the same privilege of defining my faith and my understanding of the nature of God and the equal legitimancy of my faith proclaiming our devotion to the One True God and Jesus, who he sent.

I will debate whether a particular verse supports a particular reading without a Trinitarian or Godhead assumption being placed into the context though.

Edited December 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

""In Christ" is a description of the state of all believers. Jesus used it in John 17 and Paul in numerous places. It is a description of the spiritual state of all believers."

And yet when you say "inChrist" you are in no way suggesting you are the same being with him, correct? If so, then how does this related to the oneness of the individuals we know as the Father, the Son and the Spirit as the same being as well as different persons?

(I assume you do not use "being" here as an organization of individuals such as a family).

Edited December 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Gervin]

Ok, this really doesn nothing to explain the monothesiem of God the Father and Jesus. All it has done is assert that one being can be fully 2 different things. I am not sure that is very useful either.

I was responding to your claim that it was a contradiction by showing you another way of thinking about / looking at it that shows it is not. 

[Vance]

LDS such as yourself believe in many gods which is polytheism.

It is rather obvious that you don't know what we believe.

 

And it is extremely rude to tell us what we believe and get it wrong.

 

 

  This is certainly different than what Evangelical Christians believe which is in one God or monotheism.

 

Your "monotheism" is not monotheism at all but Trinatarianism.

 

The ONLY Christians that can truly claim "monotheism" are the Christians that deny the divinity of Christ.  And yes, there are some.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

So you would affirm that the LDS gods are different than the God that Evangelicals believe in.  Correct?

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.  If that is different from you, then yes, it is different from you.