Does Our Choice Of Profession Affect Our Worthiness?

[halconero]

Yes but, people of lower standards seem to float to some professions more than others.

I agree. Hence, Jesus' use of the publican in his parable. He chose a profession of ill repute to demonstrate that even the lowest of society can be humble and repentant.

[ERayR]

My nephew on my husband's side is a RM, and he got married today. They are moving out of state and selling pest control, learned that today.

 

They may be irritating but at least they make their money selling a legitimate product and service.

[Buzzard]

So OP, why don't you ask this man about how he reconciles honesty with his fellowmen and helping MLMarketers?   He might tell you that he is determined to do what he can to help them NOT take advantage or be dishonest ---- sometimes people represent others for that very reason (though it can be hard to maintain one's morality when everyone else in a company is corrupt).   I'd venture a guess that many of those who do MLM think of themselves as helping others, and fully righteous, and probably even ARE both of those things.   It is important for mortals to understand that the Lord judges on the person's heart as well as their capacity, ,and their ability, and their knowledge.   He doesn't always look at things the same way that mortals do.

 

While it is entirely possible that men who issue calls to people who kill or molest or steal from others failed to listen to the Lord in issuing the calls  (in those stakes and wards where people are blinded by social ties or expectations, or the like, sometimes people who could do the work are overlooked because of mortal failings), it is also possible that they got it right, and the person simply sinned anyway.

Well, he's out of town at the moment, the whole mission president thing, you know. And I don't mean to cast aspersions on every single MLM employee or distributor, but I do have a business background. The business model of an MLM requires a certain level of deception in order to be profitable. While the average Joe who just wants to earn a side income may not immediately grasp this, there is simply no way to dodge it for the highest levels. They are also the ones-the only ones-who make money in the whole deal. And having read the letter that this gentleman sent out, with very specific "don't say this, or we could be fined" language, and pointers how to convey the impression of a healing effect but without exactly saying it, it went well beyond salesmanship or even that elegant term I learned back in business law class: "puffery".

[mormonnewb]

I'm actually not concerned about Church leaders not dealing with this. In the Law of Moses oppressing widows was considered such a heinous crime that God gave no punishment for it with the warning that He would take care of it personally. I think the same thing applies today with oppressing the poor.

I liked Brigham Young's comment about a businessman taking the widow's last cow and then going home and thanking God for such a successful transaction. I have heard some stuff more recently that refers to seeking honest employment but they do not define it.

Really? You're not concerned that the "watchmen" are not warning about the most heinous (and I would guess, common) sins amongst the saints? Didn't Jesus also warn about ignoring the "weightier" matters of the Law?

[mormonnewb]

I wouldn't know if a Mormon could be worthy in any given situation, but for me personally I would see someone at Showtime or a hotel chain who votes for showing porn as participating in the porn industry. While this kind of participation doesn't for me rise to the point of say not forming friendships, they wouldn't be the first people I would consider taking moral advice from.

However, under what seems to be our current paradigm of worthiness, that person would get to see his daughter's wedding, while the guy who bought the porn he was selling would be outside the temple consoling himself with a Snapple brought out by one of volunteers in the visitor's center. To my newb mind, this seems wrong.

[The Nehor]

Really? You're not concerned that the "watchmen" are not warning about the most heinous (and I would guess, common) sins amongst the saints? Didn't Jesus also warn about ignoring the "weightier" matters of the Law?

 

No, I said I am not concerned about them punishing it as God can handle it. Try and pay attention.

 

They are, of course, warning against dishonesty, oppression, and the like.

[mormonnewb]

No, I said I am not concerned about them punishing it as God can handle it. Try and pay attention.

They are, of course, warning against dishonesty, oppression, and the like.

So would you be okay if they stopped punishing people for porn and drinking? Like, for instance, letting those people into the temple? Or should the temple only be kept holy for those who sell porn and booze?

[Yirgacheffe]

However, under what seems to be our current paradigm of worthiness, that person would get to see his daughter's wedding, while the guy who bought the porn he was selling would be outside the temple consoling himself with a Snapple brought out by one of volunteers in the visitor's center. To my newb mind, this seems wrong.

Yes it seems a bit inconsistent.

[Tacenda]

They may be irritating but at least they make their money selling a legitimate product and service.

Yeah, I agree. Living in Utah I see a lot of people in MLM's. And have personal stories, one with my husband's MP, who years after we were married, contacted us about going to a presentation that served dinner, even picked us up. It was either Amway or something like it. We felt very strange, it was our first time ever going to one. And it was weird to have his old MP encouraging us to try it out, and we didn't like answering the phone in case it was him after that. Needless to say it didn't help my husband to remember him with fondness in the future.

The products were probably great, but I just liked shopping at the grocery store. So we had to figure out a way to turn it down, it was hard to say no.

Now that MP's daughter is making thousands being a Life Coach, to help people with health and weight problems using the products, it supposedly works! My sister in law has joined her and told me the MP's daughter can make as much as $10, 000.00 a month. Now she's recruiting people under her. Seems wrong on one level but what do I know.

Another one is Nature's Sunshine I hear, and it just so happens my MIL is a huge believer in their products. But she doesn't push us into buying it luckily. But did talk me into getting my eyes read and was told I needed several different supplements, and spent a few hundred on them through a gal my MIL goes to, and she is a distributer. One of them was to help me get off caffeine and it's main ingredient was coffee! I thought that was pretty funny, and just thought it ridiculous.

[ERayR]

Yeah, I agree. Living in Utah I see a lot of people in MLM's. And have personal stories, one with my husband's MP, who years after we were married, contacted us about going to a presentation that served dinner, even picked us up. It was either Amway or something like it. We felt very strange, it was our first time ever going to one. And it was weird to have his old MP encouraging us to try it out, and we didn't like answering the phone in case it was him after that. Needless to say it didn't help my husband to remember him with fondness in the future.

The products were probably great, but I just liked shopping at the grocery store. So we had to figure out a way to turn it down, it was hard to say no.

Now that MP's daughter is making thousands being a Life Coach, to help people with health and weight problems using the products, it supposedly works! My sister in law has joined her and told me the MP's daughter can make as much as $10, 000.00 a month. Now she's recruiting people under her. Seems wrong on one level but what do I know.

Another one is Nature's Sunshine I hear, and it just so happens my MIL is a huge believer in their products. But she doesn't push us into buying it luckily. But did talk me into getting my eyes read and was told I needed several different supplements, and spent a few hundred on them through a gal my MIL goes to, and she is a distributer. One of them was to help me get off caffeine and it's main ingredient was coffee! I thought that was pretty funny, and just thought it ridiculous.

 

If one bought all supplements you couldn't afford food.

[Stone holm]

Unfortunately, Utah has become a Mecca for various types of questionable get rich programs that are borderline scams. We have been trying to track down one internet fraudulent education provider which keeps changing its name and bouncing between Nevada and Orem, Utah. Back when we had local Stake 70 Quorums, I remember there were a lot of 70's in our Stake addicted to hawking Amway franchises. Never knew anybody that actually used the products, but a lot of people recruiting people to be dealers for a price. We Mormons are especially prone to this sort of thing because we really yearn to be our own boss and have a family business.

[Duncan]

Unfortunately, Utah has become a Mecca for various types of questionable get rich programs that are borderline scams. We have been trying to track down one internet fraudulent education provider which keeps changing its name and bouncing between Nevada and Orem, Utah. Back when we had local Stake 70 Quorums, I remember there were a lot of 70's in our Stake addicted to hawking Amway franchises. Never knew anybody that actually used the products, but a lot of people recruiting people to be dealers for a price. We Mormons are especially prone to this sort of thing because we really yearn to be our own boss and have a family business.

 

 

I think too this whole idea of home storage get attract people trying to make money off of it. I don't mind the Church teaching about it but I see these little businesses coming in with products and trying to sell stuff. My parents in the 1970's bought like 8 gigantic barrels of Wheat and guess what good it did them...it sat down in the cellar year after year after year collecting dust

[The Nehor]

So would you be okay if they stopped punishing people for porn and drinking? Like, for instance, letting those people into the temple? Or should the temple only be kept holy for those who sell porn and booze?

 

Both types are in the temple recommend questions. The person who has a Word of Wisdom issue can lie as easily as the person who is dishonest with their fellow men. There is no extra punishment. It is harder to lie to yourself about keeping the Word of Wisdom maybe because the lines are more exact.....though I have seen people do it, mostly the obese who only follow about half of it.

 

The temple should be kept holy period. People still lie to get in. They will have to answer to God.

 

I think the main difference we have is that you see the ability to fudge a bit and get into the temple as an advantage and I see it as a massive eternal liability.

[Kenngo1969]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the stance of our Church; at least, if we judge by GC talks and worthiness interviews.  While I'm sure that apostles have often addressed the issue of living the Gospel in our work lives, I can't think of a recent example off-hand (but I could be wrong -- for the first time ever). ...

 

 

 

 

The Brethren and Sisters who address us in General Conference have the same problem that King Benjamin had in his "General Conference" address.  Here's the approach King Benjamin took in dealing with that problem:

 

 

Mosiah 4

 

29 And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.

 

 

 

30 But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not.

 

 

Then, there's this:

 

Doctrine & Covenants 58

 

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

 

I've never heard the Brethren warn against jumping headfirst into an empty swimming pool, either, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[rpn]

 

And having read the letter that this gentleman sent out, with very specific "don't say this, or we could be fined" language, and pointers how to convey the impression of a healing effect but without exactly saying it, it went well beyond salesmanship or even that elegant term I learned back in business law class: "puffery".

 

But apparently nothing that prompted you to report him for a crime or dishonesty to any institution who is charged with investigating him?   So how can you claim it was so compelling?

[mnn727]

In general, I agree that one can be worthy in pretty much any profession, but can someone be a worthy pornographer?

I assume that one can't be a worthy pornstar since it would require violating the Law of Chastity, but what about just assisting others in doing so? And for purposes of this hypo, let's assume that the pornographer does not actually participate in the filming (he's trying to stay worthy, after all). He simply acts as the producer (contracting with the actors, locations, distributors, etc.). Would this person be "worthy"?

Can they be worthy LDS members? No.

But if they are non-members I would again ask; are they honest? do they give good value? do they follow the laws?

 

I used to work with a guy in I.T. that was a great guy and a good worker. I was surprised to learn he had a number of (for pay) x rated sites he was the admin for in his spare time. He followed the laws, gave value for what he did, was honest. In many ways he was a good contributing member of society, the fact that I didn't use his particular service and wouldn't use it did not change his character.

Edited May 10, 2014 by mnn727

[Stargazer]

Please, please, please seek counseling for this malady. If you live in Utah, you can find professionals who deal specifically with this. Just look for their contact information on the billboards along I-15.

 

Very funny.  I have a bunch of them.  I haven't gotten any new ones in years.  Nor will I.  But I still like them, and continue to do so.

 

Note that I live in Washington state.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Stargazer

[thatjimguy]

I have a whole bunch of Living Scriptures audio and video tapes.  I love them!

 

My home teacher is the author of a book on How to Select a Network Marketing Company

 

And he's a founder of a MLM company.  A very nice guy who has a great family. 

 

I've tried to do MLM, but with no success (I don't talk to people, that's why).  I do know people who are making a good living at it, however.

 

Even if you like the product, the sales is terrible. At BYU-I, I actually went to one of their recruitment meetings. Being in sales most of my life, I kind of knew what I was about to see. I went because I wanted to see it for myself if this actually went down in LDS society.

 

I was dissapointed to be right. Same old promises. Statment of how much money they all made. etc etc...

 

I wouldn't promote them. I do not care how good the product may be. I don't see how the LDS community lets them slide. It is so transparent.

 

I mean Vivant, and all those others...whatever. But Living Scriptures? I would think the LDS community would have none of that!

[Rain]

Unfortunately, Utah has become a Mecca for various types of questionable get rich programs that are borderline scams. We have been trying to track down one internet fraudulent education provider which keeps changing its name and bouncing between Nevada and Orem, Utah. Back when we had local Stake 70 Quorums, I remember there were a lot of 70's in our Stake addicted to hawking Amway franchises. Never knew anybody that actually used the products, but a lot of people recruiting people to be dealers for a price. We Mormons are especially prone to this sort of thing because we really yearn to be our own boss and have a family business.

I think you have it.  So many want that family time and MLM businesses often promise that you can have the family time with them.  So since there is a large LDS population in Utah then it makes sense that you would have a large population of MLM.

 

Even if you like the product, the sales is terrible. At BYU-I, I actually went to one of their recruitment meetings. Being in sales most of my life, I kind of knew what I was about to see. I went because I wanted to see it for myself if this actually went down in LDS society.

 

I was dissapointed to be right. Same old promises. Statment of how much money they all made. etc etc...

 

I wouldn't promote them. I do not care how good the product may be. I don't see how the LDS community lets them slide. It is so transparent.

 

I mean Vivant, and all those others...whatever. But Living Scriptures? I would think the LDS community would have none of that!

Perhaps that is part of it. I really don't know much about the sales practices of Living Scriptures and until recently I lived in Utah for most of my life.  I'm not in sales.  I don't care to be in sales.  So maybe what is transparent to you is more transparent because you are in sales.  

 

Please don't think I am advocating for MLM companies.  I hate being hit up on sales pitches and the ravings over how good this or that product is.  I just think that most people who are in it are not being dishonest, rather they are trusting and naive, even when they drive me a little crazy.

[wenglund]

However, under what seems to be our current paradigm of worthiness, that person would get to see his daughter's wedding, while the guy who bought the porn he was selling would be outside the temple consoling himself with a Snapple brought out by one of volunteers in the visitor's center. To my newb mind, this seems wrong.

 

It isn't surprising that you think the Church is doing things wrong in this case--you seem to have an inexhaustible list of complaints. But, I wonder if, in your self-important wisdom, are you actually attempting to draw a moral equivalence between a grocery cashier who rings up a customer's purchase of a porn magazine and the customer who purchases and avidly reads the porn magazine?

 

Are you also suggesting that the general recommend questions, that are designed more for self-assessment, ought to be changed to included specific details covering the entire spectrum of possible moral issues, and grilled interrogatively under the searing light of a single lamp?

 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stone holm]

It isn't surprising that you think the Church is doing things wrong in this case--you seem to have an inexhaustible list of complaints. But, I wonder if, in your self-important wisdom, are you actually attempting to draw a moral equivalence between a grocery cashier who rings up a customer's purchase of a porn magazine and the customer who purchases and avidly reads the porn magazine?

 

Are you also suggesting that the general recommend questions, that are designed more for self-assessment, ought to be changed to included specific details covering the entire spectrum of possible moral issues, and grilled interrogatively under the searing light of a single lamp?

 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well I don't know where you draw the line should for example a member own a casino that not only has gambling, alcohol, and questionable floor shows? How about the tobacco farmer? We have a problem with porn producers, should that extend to investing in say distilleries? What destroys more families, purveying porn or booze?

[ERayR]

Well I don't know where you draw the line should for example a member own a casino that not only has gambling, alcohol, and questionable floor shows? How about the tobacco farmer? We have a problem with porn producers, should that extend to investing in say distilleries? What destroys more families, purveying porn or booze?

 

What about the self-righteous who goes looking for faults in others and their occupations.  Insert something about motes and beams.

[mormonnewb]

It isn't surprising that you think the Church is doing things wrong in this case--you seem to have an inexhaustible list of complaints. But, I wonder if, in your self-important wisdom, are you actually attempting to draw a moral equivalence between a grocery cashier who rings up a customer's purchase of a porn magazine and the customer who purchases and avidly reads the porn magazine?

 

Are you also suggesting that the general recommend questions, that are designed more for self-assessment, ought to be changed to included specific details covering the entire spectrum of possible moral issues, and grilled interrogatively under the searing light of a single lamp?

 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

So many things to answer ...

 

My list of complaints about the Church isn't inexhaustible.  It probably doesn't exceed 100.  For you, that might be a very large number but perhaps, you can find a teenager to do the math for you.

 

As for my "self-important wisdom," I plead guilty.  I do place great value on MY ability to think and reason.  It's why I come to this board and other places on the web, so that I may gain more knowledge to help me attain "self-important wisdom."  I guess I could just allow someone else to fill my head with the conclusions, but I somewhat enjoy this thinking thing.  You might want to try it sometime.

 

No, I'm not drawing a moral equivalence between the buyer of porn and its purveyor.  The purveyor is far WORSE.  And no, I don't consider the cashier as the "purveyor."  This person has no control over what the store sells.  However, the owner of the store is the purveyor.  The person who watches porn, drinks booze, etc. is often addicted to the behavior in question and not acting totally of their own volition.  However, to my knowledge, there is no such thing as an addiction to SELLING porn.  The merchant is simply an opportunist, acting solely out of greed (or ignorance of the harm she is causing).  The member who knows the evils of porn, yet chooses to sell it to her brothers and sisters is in my self-important view, no more worthy to enter the temple than her customer.

 

Finally, I'm not encouraging a temple-recommend inquisition.  In the end, it is up to each member to access their "worthiness" to enter the temple.  There isn't much that can be done to prevent a member from intentionally misrepresenting his worthiness to the bishop.  However, the vast majority of members have an earnest desire to live worthily.  Yet, I suspect that there are a few who engage in questionable business practices because they don't necessarily see the connection between their business activities and their answers to the TR questions.

 

Likewise, it's entirely possible that some members would not see the connection between, say, porn and the Law of Chastity.  That is why our leaders make a conscious effort to make that connection clear.  Likewise, some members (not any of us, of course) could probably use "a moment of clarity" when it comes to their business practices.

 

Do you disagree that our leaders should warn us about sin?

[wenglund]

Well I don't know where you draw the line should for example a member own a casino that not only has gambling, alcohol, and questionable floor shows? How about the tobacco farmer? We have a problem with porn producers, should that extend to investing in say distilleries? What destroys more families, purveying porn or booze?

 

It isn't my place to draw the line. Rather, it is to be drawn by the person being INTERVIEWED (as opposed to interrogated) and God. How did you not know this?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 13, 2014 by wenglund

[wenglund]

So many things to answer ...

 

My list of complaints about the Church isn't inexhaustible.  It probably doesn't exceed 100.  For you, that might be a very large number but perhaps, you can find a teenager to do the math for you.

 

Better yet, grade school students have enough math skills to add up what it takes to be a seemingly chronic complainer.

 

As for my "self-important wisdom," I plead guilty.  I do place great value on MY ability to think and reason.  It's why I come to this board and other places on the web, so that I may gain more knowledge to help me attain "self-important wisdom."  I guess I could just allow someone else to fill my head with the conclusions, but I somewhat enjoy this thinking thing.  You might want to try it sometime.

 

You plead guilty to a charge you evidently don't understand. "The intentionally oxymoronic charge of "self-important wisdom" has nothing to do with seeking knowledge from others, but rather with presumptuously dispensing "advice" well beyond your pay grade.

 

No, I'm not drawing a moral equivalence between the buyer of porn and its purveyor.  The purveyor is far WORSE.  And no, I don't consider the cashier as the "purveyor."  This person has no control over what the store sells.  However, the owner of the store is the purveyor.

 

If you are talking about owners of franchise stores, like 7-11, they have little or no control over what items they sell in their stores.

 

Also, stockholders who have ownership in stores also have little input into what goes on the shelf.

 

So, your sweeping condemnation of store owners as morally WORSE than porn buyers, is a case of "self-important wisdom" run amuck.

 

The person who watches porn, drinks booze, etc. is often addicted to the behavior in question and not acting totally of their own volition.  However, to my knowledge, there is no such thing as an addiction to SELLING porn.

 

So? As indicated above, often what is sold in stores is not a function of the workers or certain owners volition. 

 

The merchant is simply an opportunist, acting solely out of greed (or ignorance of the harm she is causing).  The member who knows the evils of porn, yet chooses to sell it to her brothers and sisters is in my self-important view, no more worthy to enter the temple than her customer.

 

No doubt, in your "self-important wisdom" you figure you are in a perfect position to sweepingly judge others--not only in terms of theri motives behind merchandising, but also the worthiness of all workers and owners who sell porn. What need is there for a recommend interview when you can stand at the temple doors like Peter of old and decide who gets to enter and who doesn't?

 

Finally, I'm not encouraging a temple-recommend inquisition.  In the end, it is up to each member to access their "worthiness" to enter the temple.  There isn't much that can be done to prevent a member from intentionally misrepresenting his worthiness to the bishop.  However, the vast majority of members have an earnest desire to live worthily.  Yet, I suspect that there are a few who engage in questionable business practices because they don't necessarily see the connection between their business activities and their answers to the TR questions.

 

Yes....not everyone is as morally in tune as you across all aspects of their lives. In fact, very few people are as morally in tune as you across all aspects of other people's lives. 

 

Likewise, it's entirely possible that some members would not see the connection between, say, porn and the Law of Chastity.  That is why our leaders make a conscious effort to make that connection clear.  Likewise, some members (not any of us, of course) could probably use "a moment of clarity" when it comes to their business practices.

 

I am not in a position to determine what other members probably need or not in that regard, and where and how that "moment of clarity" might be administered by the Church as you may presume is needed. But, we can all be relieved to know that you are in such a position, and have decided that recommend interviews are just the place and time. Now, if only God and his chosen leaders could catch up with your "self-important wisdom."

 

{quote]Do you disagree that our leaders should warn us about sin?

 

I am of the disposition to let God inspire his chosen leader as to what he thinks we should be warned about, and this because I am constantly and painfully aware that I am far from being as smart and knowledgeable and capable as God and his chosen leaders. You, of course, evidently don't suffer from those human limitations--at least in your "self-important mind.". [thumbs up]