Does Our Choice Of Profession Affect Our Worthiness?

[Yirgacheffe]

I'm tempted to agree that participation in sin is sin except that "participation" is tricky.

One cannot be a producer of porn, but what about a silent partner in a porn producer? Or what about a distributor of films in general, some of which are porn? Or what about operating a hotel chain that offers in-room porn to its customers? Or what about being an executive at, say, Showtime Cable, that shows soft-core porn late at night?

More generally, what about participating on violations of the Law of Chastity in other ways? For instance, what about running a motel where you KNOW that a good percentage of your weekend room rentals are to unmarried couples (well, at least, not married to EACH OTHER)?

Where does one draw the line?

I think these things you mentioned

"a silent partner in a porn producer? Or what about a distributor of films in general, some of which are porn? Or what about operating a hotel chain that offers in-room porn to its customers? Or what about being an executive at, say, Showtime Cable, that shows soft-core porn late at night"

Are quite different than this:

"For instance, what about running a motel where you KNOW that a good percentage of your weekend room rentals are to unmarried couples (well, at least, not married to EACH OTHER)?"

You can not know for absolute certainty what other people are doing, but you do KNOW what you are doing yourself.  The first items you list are what you are doing and it is at it's base you participating in the porn industry either as a producer or purveyor.

 

 

 

 

[BCSpace]

But that peeve has really stuck in my craw, and it's Multi Level Marketing companies, of which Utah is practically the center of the MLM universe. I see how they are set up to enrich the very few at the top at the expense of the many who will lose money in it no matter how hard they work, and how much time and capital they invest. You literally have a better chance of making a living by becoming a professional gambler.

 

 

I recently heard Dave Ramsey on the radio say he believes there is nothing inherently wrong with MLM.  One just has to realize that in order to make money in MLM, it's not going to happen by selling the product. It's going to happen by managing and selling as many people as you can to work underneath your own level.

 

I suppose it can be on the up and up because the potential is there to make money selling the product and there's nothing to limit you in that respect.  But I would agree it's the hardest route to take in MLM.

 

It's certainly not for me.

[mormonnewb]

I think these things you mentioned

"a silent partner in a porn producer? Or what about a distributor of films in general, some of which are porn? Or what about operating a hotel chain that offers in-room porn to its customers? Or what about being an executive at, say, Showtime Cable, that shows soft-core porn late at night"

Are quite different than this:

"For instance, what about running a motel where you KNOW that a good percentage of your weekend room rentals are to unmarried couples (well, at least, not married to EACH OTHER)?"

You can not know for absolute certainty what other people are doing, but you do KNOW what you are doing yourself. The first items you list are what you are doing and it is at it's base you participating in the porn industry either as a producer or purveyor.

So can a Mormon be worthy if she is a Showtime exec or runs a hotel chain that sells in-room porn?

[mfbukowski]

If you are not an accountant you must be burned at the stake.

[Stargazer]

I always worried about that a little. I also found out how many MLM's are in Utah. Made me wonder about any links societal or otherwise. But I do not know enough about if LDS lead in these endeavors or are followers to them.

 

I do know, even here in Erie, PA, there is Ambit Energy, based out of Texas that feels heavily like MLM. Of course, it has taken off with the members of the church.

 

I would say if there is any connection between MLM and churchy people (not just LDS) is that it is based on supporting someone and trusting that person of to rip you off.

 

Dont even get me started on the Living Scriptures people...

 

I have a whole bunch of Living Scriptures audio and video tapes.  I love them!

 

My home teacher is the author of a book on How to Select a Network Marketing Company

 

And he's a founder of a MLM company.  A very nice guy who has a great family. 

 

I've tried to do MLM, but with no success (I don't talk to people, that's why).  I do know people who are making a good living at it, however.

[Stargazer]

I recently heard Dave Ramsey on the radio say he believes there is nothing inherently wrong with MLM.  One just has to realize that in order to make money in MLM, it's not going to happen by selling the product. It's going to happen by managing and selling as many people as you can to work underneath your own level.

 

I suppose it can be on the up and up because the potential is there to make money selling the product and there's nothing to limit you in that respect.  But I would agree it's the hardest route to take in MLM.

 

It's certainly not for me.

 

The funny thing about it, is that those who complain the most about it say that it is only the people at the top who make real money.  Given that some CEO's of major corporations (Bill Gates anyone?) make more money that anyone else on earth, this seems to not be something unique to MLM.

[mormonnewb]

... To be honest I would expect God to be harsher with someone oppressing a widow through exploitative and predatory lending practices then he is with someone making smut. Jesus told some of the religious leaders of his day that prostitutes would get into heaven before they did and the only point of comparison was occupation....

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the stance of our Church; at least, if we judge by GC talks and worthiness interviews.  While I'm sure that apostles have often addressed the issue of living the Gospel in our work lives, I can't think of a recent example off-hand (but I could be wrong -- for the first time ever).  On the other hand, I would GUESS that there three or four talks warning against porn in the last conference alone.  Why is it a greater evil to watch porn than, to say, supply porn to THOUSANDS of customers in your hotel chain?

 

I noticed the same phenomenon in my worthiness interviews for the temple.  When it came to the question about chastity, my leader explained what it meant for a Mormon to live that law and asked specifically about porn use.  However, when it came to the question about honesty in my dealings with my fellow man, there was no such explanation.  Being my usual difficult self, I asked for clarification because I lie quite often.  I lie to my wife ("That was a wonderful dinner, Baby!"), my kids ("Don't worry.  You'll hit a home run next time."), people in my ward ("I just loved your sacrament talk"), etc.

 

Now, quite frankly, I didn't expect these little whitesome and delightsome lies would make me unworthy because quite frankly, flattery is the lifeblood of our church (and one of MY favorite things about it).  But I was kind of surprised that my leader didn't want to explore the matter further because, as a "raconteur," I lie for a living.  But it's not just me.  I can imagine that some saint somewhere has said:

 

"You're in luck!  This week, our product is priced at just [the normal price].  Do you want to order now to lock in this price [which hasn't changed in a decade]?"

 

"Based on your status as a preferred customer [i.e., someone who has bought our crap at least once before], we're making you this special offer [the same offer that anyone can get] ..."

 

"Are you sure you don't want to buy the extended warranty coverage [which is riddled with exclusions making it worthless]?  You'll sleep better knowing that, in case anything goes wrong [and we'll sleep better knowing that we'll NEVER have to pay out on your claim]."

 

And I suspect they felt perfectly at ease answering "yes" to the honesty question in their worthiness interview because, after all, "it's just business!"  But I could be wrong (for the second time ever).  Are non-newb members just as careful to avoid dishonesty as they are to avoid porn?

[cdowis]

Some LDS members, including stake presidents, have an attitude of "church is church and business is business". I had such experience with a church leader, wrote a letter to the stake president of that individual describing it as "conduct unbecoming", but it was ignored as far as I can tell.

 

I felt that I had done my duty, and will let the Lord take care of it.e

 

I do not remember any conference talk on that subject.

Edited May 9, 2014 by cdowis

[Storm Rider]

As I think of this topic my mind goes to the 13th Article of Faith. This has always had an impact on me and along with the phrase, "have a priestly appearance about you always" have served to guide me in a wide range of circumstances.  How others choose to live and the decisions they make I try to reserve judgment.  I haven't walked in their shoes and I don't know the circumstances that lead to their decisions.  Some of us choose to live very close to the line while others choose to live far from it.  Some are risk takers and some are not. We know our hearts and we know what type of temptations we can handle and what we cannot.  Why would we repeatedly put ourselves in positions to fall short of our desires to serve Jesus Christ?

 

I do think that disciples of Christ have some responsibility toward others; it is not a prime responsibility, but it falls somewhere along the range of things we need to consider.  All things being equal, if our choices leads others into sin we should probably avoid that choice for their spiritual health.  

 

At the end of the day I hope I can be a source of peace and support a pursuit of that which is virtuous, lovely, of good report and praiseworthy.  The 13th Article is one of the lens I have used to make decisions and it has served me well. 

[jwhitlock]

I have a whole bunch of Living Scriptures audio and video tapes.  I love them!

 

Please, please, please seek counseling for this malady. If you live in Utah, you can find professionals who deal specifically with this. Just look for their contact information on the billboards along I-15.

[ERayR]

One should spend more time worrying about what you are doing and less about who is in MLM or who has their name attached with a hotel chain that offers porn in its rooms.  If it bothers you don't do it.

 

I must admit porn and MLM bothers me so I steer clear of them.  There are other things that I steer clear of also.

[stemelbow]

Unfortunately Utah County is filled with MLMs, pest control, alarms, and "mentoring" companies - all of which are known for their deceptive sales tactics. Even more unfortunate is that most of these are staffed primarily with recent RMs.

I've noticed the same about these companies--location and being staffed by RMs. I've never had alarms or pest control--never felt it necessary. So I simply haven't paid attention. I have wondered how they can have success though. What are these deceptive sales tactics you mention? I've had alarm sales guys come to my door--always tell them no. What do they do that is so bad?

Thanks.

[ERayR]

I'm tempted to agree that participation in sin is sin except that "participation" is tricky.

One cannot be a producer of porn, but what about a silent partner in a porn producer? Or what about a distributor of films in general, some of which are porn? Or what about operating a hotel chain that offers in-room porn to its customers? Or what about being an executive at, say, Showtime Cable, that shows soft-core porn late at night?

More generally, what about participating on violations of the Law of Chastity in other ways? For instance, what about running a motel where you KNOW that a good percentage of your weekend room rentals are to unmarried couples (well, at least, not married to EACH OTHER)?

Where does one draw the line?

 

See above post.  Most things have a good and a bad side.  Your motel example for instance.  Neither you nor I are are equipped to be the worlds conscience.  The best one can do is to not promote questionable activities.  To rent rooms to all comers is one thing.  To advertise and promote a by the hour rate for immoral purposes is another.  Just use your personal revelation and keep yourself on the right side. 

 

By the way insert something about motes and beams here.

[ERayR]

So are 99% of MLM companies, so are exploitative lending practices, so is selling crap with dishonesty. To be honest I would expect God to be harsher with someone oppressing a widow through exploitative and predatory lending practices then he is with someone making smut. Jesus told some of the religious leaders of his day that prostitutes would get into heaven before they did and the only point of comparison was occupation.

 

 

 

If the rest of the world saw them as they are they would dry up. They prey upon the ignorant, the naive, the excessively trusting, and the greedy. I have sympathy for all but the last.

 

I try not to fret over how God will deal with someone else and use that time and energy trying to improve myself.  Sometimes I think I make a little headway.

[The Nehor]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the stance of our Church; at least, if we judge by GC talks and worthiness interviews.  While I'm sure that apostles have often addressed the issue of living the Gospel in our work lives, I can't think of a recent example off-hand (but I could be wrong -- for the first time ever).  On the other hand, I would GUESS that there three or four talks warning against porn in the last conference alone.  Why is it a greater evil to watch porn than, to say, supply porn to THOUSANDS of customers in your hotel chain?

 

I noticed the same phenomenon in my worthiness interviews for the temple.  When it came to the question about chastity, my leader explained what it meant for a Mormon to live that law and asked specifically about porn use.  However, when it came to the question about honesty in my dealings with my fellow man, there was no such explanation.  Being my usual difficult self, I asked for clarification because I lie quite often.  I lie to my wife ("That was a wonderful dinner, Baby!"), my kids ("Don't worry.  You'll hit a home run next time."), people in my ward ("I just loved your sacrament talk"), etc.

 

Now, quite frankly, I didn't expect these little whitesome and delightsome lies would make me unworthy because quite frankly, flattery is the lifeblood of our church (and one of MY favorite things about it).  But I was kind of surprised that my leader didn't want to explore the matter further because, as a "raconteur," I lie for a living.  But it's not just me.  I can imagine that some saint somewhere has said:

 

"You're in luck!  This week, our product is priced at just [the normal price].  Do you want to order now to lock in this price [which hasn't changed in a decade]?"

 

"Based on your status as a preferred customer [i.e., someone who has bought our crap at least once before], we're making you this special offer [the same offer that anyone can get] ..."

 

"Are you sure you don't want to buy the extended warranty coverage [which is riddled with exclusions making it worthless]?  You'll sleep better knowing that, in case anything goes wrong [and we'll sleep better knowing that we'll NEVER have to pay out on your claim]."

 

And I suspect they felt perfectly at ease answering "yes" to the honesty question in their worthiness interview because, after all, "it's just business!"  But I could be wrong (for the second time ever).  Are non-newb members just as careful to avoid dishonesty as they are to avoid porn?

 

I'm actually not concerned about Church leaders not dealing with this. In the Law of Moses oppressing widows was considered such a heinous crime that God gave no punishment for it with the warning that He would take care of it personally. I think the same thing applies today with oppressing the poor.

 

I liked Brigham Young's comment about a businessman taking the widow's last cow and then going home and thanking God for such a successful transaction. I have heard some stuff more recently that refers to seeking honest employment but they do not define it.

[The Nehor]

I recently heard Dave Ramsey on the radio say he believes there is nothing inherently wrong with MLM.  One just has to realize that in order to make money in MLM, it's not going to happen by selling the product. It's going to happen by managing and selling as many people as you can to work underneath your own level.

 

No, the secret to making money in an MLM is to peddle the dream of wealth and sell the starter kits.

 

The problem with only acquiring people is you make no money until they sell something but their incentive is just to acquire more people. Again, the guy selling the starter kit is the one making money.

[omni]

I've noticed the same about these companies--location and being staffed by RMs. I've never had alarms or pest control--never felt it necessary. So I simply haven't paid attention. I have wondered how they can have success though. What are these deceptive sales tactics you mention? I've had alarm sales guys come to my door--always tell them no. What do they do that is so bad?

Thanks.

 

I have known a number of people who have worked in these industries and have heard many of their stories.  Some quit do to the unethical practices, some stayed because they were able to make some good money.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865570130/Alarm-companies-top-2012-list-of-most-complained-about-businesses-in-Utah.html?pg=all

[thesometimesaint]

I'll leave that up to the Lord to decide. In the mean time if anyone tries to sell you something based on their religion RUN.

[Rain]

So are 99% of MLM companies, so are exploitative lending practices, so is selling crap with dishonesty.

I know lots of people who have got into MLM.  I don't feel they are being dishonest. Unfortunately I think they are just terribly naive or receptive.  Sp many of them believe very strongly in their product.  Even those higher up believe in their product strongly, which is one of the reasons they are successful.  

 

I don't think all of them believe so strongly in their product initially.  I know one man who was desperate for work and came across a company that was not a MLM that I know of, but was something he would be selling. The desperation fed into his belief of the product.

 

That isn't to say I am for MLMs.  I had an experience once where someone royally ticked me off when she tried to use Joseph Smith praying to encourage me to sell her product, but I still didn't find her dishonest.  I absolutely agree that things should be prayed over.  Unfortunately most I have found that most people forget the study it out part.  

 

being honest in your work has been mentioned in conference a number of times, though I can't recall any specifics. I've just been more aware of it since tracting into a man on my mission who was very kind, but refused to talk with us after having had a bad experience with a dishonest, Mormon business partner.   

[The Nehor]

I know lots of people who have got into MLM.  I don't feel they are being dishonest. Unfortunately I think they are just terribly naive or receptive.  Sp many of them believe very strongly in their product.  Even those higher up believe in their product strongly, which is one of the reasons they are successful.  

 

I don't think all of them believe so strongly in their product initially.  I know one man who was desperate for work and came across a company that was not a MLM that I know of, but was something he would be selling. The desperation fed into his belief of the product.

 

That isn't to say I am for MLMs.  I had an experience once where someone royally ticked me off when she tried to use Joseph Smith praying to encourage me to sell her product, but I still didn't find her dishonest.  I absolutely agree that things should be prayed over.  Unfortunately most I have found that most people forget the study it out part.  

 

being honest in your work has been mentioned in conference a number of times, though I can't recall any specifics. I've just been more aware of it since tracting into a man on my mission who was very kind, but refused to talk with us after having had a bad experience with a dishonest, Mormon business partner.   

 

Using Joseph Smith's prayer to sell something is basically the textbook definition of priestcraft. Even if it is not dishonest it is evil.

[saemo]

I had a good friend who's job was a wine taster. He converted and eventually became a branch president.

After consultation with local district leaders it was determined there was no violation of the word of wisdom as the wine was primarily spat out.

Too funny.

[Coreyb]

I'll leave that up to the Lord to decide. In the mean time if anyone tries to sell you something based on their religion RUN.

Does that include deseret book

[halconero]

The Roman Empire had a system of tax collection whereby an individual or group would pay the taxes out their pocket, and receive a contract in return to tax the area they payed for as they saw fit.

They often did this by recruiting lower tax collectors, and receive a portion of their earnings. These could, in turn, do the same. And thus we have the rise of the publicans. They quickly gained a reputation for deceitfulness and wickedness.

And we know that The Lord would never call one of those to any high position.

God, we thank thee, that we are not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as these multi-level marketers.

[cinepro]

I recently heard Dave Ramsey on the radio say he believes there is nothing inherently wrong with MLM.  One just has to realize that in order to make money in MLM, it's not going to happen by selling the product. It's going to happen by managing and selling as many people as you can to work underneath your own level.

 

If you're quoting Ramsey correctly, and neither you nor he can read that quote and have a red flag go up, then something is very wrong. 

[cinepro]

I find it unsettleing that my Stake President is an accountant working for a rent by the week furniture company - but there is a need for that business also.

 

Well, it could be worse.