Does Our Choice Of Profession Affect Our Worthiness?

[Buzzard]

I've always had one pet peeve about living in Utah, as much as I like it here and love Utahn's. Well, there's another, but it has little to do with this discussion.

But that peeve has really stuck in my craw, and it's Multi Level Marketing companies, of which Utah is practically the center of the MLM universe. I see how they are set up to enrich the very few at the top at the expense of the many who will lose money in it no matter how hard they work, and how much time and capital they invest. You literally have a better chance of making a living by becoming a professional gambler. 

But I  was brought up short when I stumbled across the social media profile of a guy I knew in high school. Three red flags caught my eye:

-He became a lawyer. (OK, so even the Kingdom needs good lawyers, this one is a little bit TIC. We even have lawyers who have become apostles.)

-He specialized in offering legal services to MLM companies, including a few of the largest and most successful in Utah. That WAS a big red flag for me. 

-A few years ago, he helped found one of these MLM companies, and was retained by them as their general counsel. In that capacity, he wrote letters to the distributors of this snake oil fine product telling them what to say to customers to avoid getting in trouble with government regulators while still conveying the impression that their product had medical benefits. I would not trust anyone who would do this farther than I could throw them, though I admit my bias against the whole business model and wonder how someone could look at him or herself in the mirror while being involved with this kind of business. More than a red flag, it was a big, waving, crimson banner.

What brought me up really short, however, was that he was on an extended leave of absence from this company to serve as a mission president. Yeech. 

Of course, even a cursory examination of the list of MP's shows that several of them made their living-filthy lucre in my book-in MLM companies. 

Am I blinded by my prejudice towards a business model that I consider to be fraudulent on it's face? Is it none of my stinking business? Or am I right to be a bit uncomfortable when I see men called to leadership after spending their professional lives promoting dishonest practices, at least IMHO?

 

[CV75]

Am I blinded by my prejudice towards a business model that I consider to be fraudulent on it's face? Is it none of my stinking business? Or am I right to be a bit uncomfortable when I see men called to leadership after spending their professional lives promoting dishonest practices, at least IMHO?

I think the Lord calls people to positions that other people rightly or wrongly consider unworthy, for His own purposes an from His own point of view.

[The Nehor]

Everyone who sells MLM garbage is going to hell.

I am okay with this.

[ERayR]

Of course lawyers will never make it.       

[mnn727]

I think a person can be honorable in pretty much any profession as well as be dishonorable in just about any profession.

Do you treat your customers fairly?

Do you give honest work for your pay?

etc

 

I find it unsettleing that my Stake President is an accountant working for a rent by the week furniture company - but there is a need for that business also.

[seed]

its probably ok as long as they pay double tithe.

[Disciple?]

I've always had one pet peeve about living in Utah, as much as I like it here and love Utahn's. Well, there's another, but it has little to do with this discussion.

But that peeve has really stuck in my craw, and it's Multi Level Marketing companies, of which Utah is practically the center of the MLM universe. I see how they are set up to enrich the very few at the top at the expense of the many who will lose money in it no matter how hard they work, and how much time and capital they invest. You literally have a better chance of making a living by becoming a professional gambler. 

But I  was brought up short when I stumbled across the social media profile of a guy I knew in high school. Three red flags caught my eye:

-He became a lawyer. (OK, so even the Kingdom needs good lawyers, this one is a little bit TIC. We even have lawyers who have become apostles.)

-He specialized in offering legal services to MLM companies, including a few of the largest and most successful in Utah. That WAS a big red flag for me. 

-A few years ago, he helped found one of these MLM companies, and was retained by them as their general counsel. In that capacity, he wrote letters to the distributors of this snake oil fine product telling them what to say to customers to avoid getting in trouble with government regulators while still conveying the impression that their product had medical benefits. I would not trust anyone who would do this farther than I could throw them, though I admit my bias against the whole business model and wonder how someone could look at him or herself in the mirror while being involved with this kind of business. More than a red flag, it was a big, waving, crimson banner.

What brought me up really short, however, was that he was on an extended leave of absence from this company to serve as a mission president. Yeech. 

Of course, even a cursory examination of the list of MP's shows that several of them made their living-filthy lucre in my book-in MLM companies. 

Am I blinded by my prejudice towards a business model that I consider to be fraudulent on it's face? Is it none of my stinking business? Or am I right to be a bit uncomfortable when I see men called to leadership after spending their professional lives promoting dishonest practices, at least IMHO?

 

You raise an interesting discussion topic. No, I do not think a person's profession automatically deems them to fire and brimstone. What deems some unworthy is the Christlike attributes they have developed and how they apply them. There can be folks in what people perceive as worthy professions who are more unworthy than a lawyer. They can go along in life envying others or being dishonest based on biases. The important part -- no matter our profession -- is that we recognize our weakness and make them our strengths. Like Elder Holland said, if we do not make our weaknesses strengths we might as well drink jars of pickle juice.

[thatjimguy]

I always worried about that a little. I also found out how many MLM's are in Utah. Made me wonder about any links societal or otherwise. But I do not know enough about if LDS lead in these endeavors or are followers to them.

 

I do know, even here in Erie, PA, there is Ambit Energy, based out of Texas that feels heavily like MLM. Of course, it has taken off with the members of the church.

 

I would say if there is any connection between MLM and churchy people (not just LDS) is that it is based on supporting someone and trusting that person of to rip you off.

 

Dont even get me started on the Living Scriptures people...

[mormonnewb]

I think a person can be honorable in pretty much any profession as well as be dishonorable in just about any profession.

Do you treat your customers fairly?

Do you give honest work for your pay?

etc

I find it unsettleing that my Stake President is an accountant working for a rent by the week furniture company - but there is a need for that business also.

In general, I agree that one can be worthy in pretty much any profession, but can someone be a worthy pornographer?

I assume that one can't be a worthy pornstar since it would require violating the Law of Chastity, but what about just assisting others in doing so? And for purposes of this hypo, let's assume that the pornographer does not actually participate in the filming (he's trying to stay worthy, after all). He simply acts as the producer (contracting with the actors, locations, distributors, etc.). Would this person be "worthy"?

[ERayR]

In general, I agree that one can be worthy in pretty much any profession, but can someone be a worthy pornographer?

I assume that one can't be a worthy pornstar since it would require violating the Law of Chastity, but what about just assisting others in doing so? And for purposes of this hypo, let's assume that the pornographer does not actually participate in the filming (he's trying to stay worthy, after all). He simply acts as the producer (contracting with the actors, locations, distributors, etc.). Would this person be "worthy"?

 

No.  One can not intentionally sin and be worthy and the pornography industry, no matter how you participate, is sin.

[Bikeemikey]

I had a good friend who's job was a wine taster. He converted and eventually became a branch president.

After consultation with local district leaders it was determined there was no violation of the word of wisdom as the wine was primarily spat out.

[mormonnewb]

No. One can not intentionally sin and be worthy and the pornography industry, no matter how you participate, is sin.

I'm tempted to agree that participation in sin is sin except that "participation" is tricky.

One cannot be a producer of porn, but what about a silent partner in a porn producer? Or what about a distributor of films in general, some of which are porn? Or what about operating a hotel chain that offers in-room porn to its customers? Or what about being an executive at, say, Showtime Cable, that shows soft-core porn late at night?

More generally, what about participating on violations of the Law of Chastity in other ways? For instance, what about running a motel where you KNOW that a good percentage of your weekend room rentals are to unmarried couples (well, at least, not married to EACH OTHER)?

Where does one draw the line?

[Grudunza]

I'm tempted to agree that participation in sin is sin except that "participation" is tricky.

One cannot be a producer of porn, but what about a silent partner in a porn producer? Or what about a distributor of films in general, some of which are porn? Or what about operating a hotel chain that offers in-room porn to its customers? Or what about being an executive at, say, Showtime Cable, that shows soft-core porn late at night?

More generally, what about participating on violations of the Law of Chastity in other ways? For instance, what about running a motel where you KNOW that a good percentage of your weekend room rentals are to unmarried couples (well, at least, not married to EACH OTHER)?

Where does one draw the line?

Good question (and topic). I think it depends on your intent. A motel owner is providing shelter for people, which is a valuable service. What people choose to do with their room rental is on *their* heads and souls. On the other hand, if you specifically advertise your motel as "A good place to have illicit sex!" that would probably be a no-no. A similar example would be dating sites, which are fine in general, but there's one I've seen ads for on late night TV where they specifically cater to people looking for flings.

People are good at justifying everything they do, so I imagine a MLM employee or investor feels that their MLM company/scheme is fair. If they know without a doubt that they are scamming some people, then yeah, they're jerks in that respect. I'm still not sure that would necessarily disqualify them from holding church positions, though, if they are willing to serve faithfully. It should probably disqualify them from the temple, per the "honest with your dealings with others" question, but that may depend on the person's particular position and whether they are honest within that scope of the business. Still a bit sketchy to work for a company you know is ripping people off, but it wouldn't be for me to judge the motivation of that.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Grudunza

[Coreyb]

I've always had one pet peeve about living in Utah, as much as I like it here and love Utahn's. Well, there's another, but it has little to do with this discussion.

But that peeve has really stuck in my craw, and it's Multi Level Marketing companies, of which Utah is practically the center of the MLM universe. I see how they are set up to enrich the very few at the top at the expense of the many who will lose money in it no matter how hard they work, and how much time and capital they invest. You literally have a better chance of making a living by becoming a professional gambler. 

But I  was brought up short when I stumbled across the social media profile of a guy I knew in high school. Three red flags caught my eye:

-He became a lawyer. (OK, so even the Kingdom needs good lawyers, this one is a little bit TIC. We even have lawyers who have become apostles.)

-He specialized in offering legal services to MLM companies, including a few of the largest and most successful in Utah. That WAS a big red flag for me. 

-A few years ago, he helped found one of these MLM companies, and was retained by them as their general counsel. In that capacity, he wrote letters to the distributors of this snake oil fine product telling them what to say to customers to avoid getting in trouble with government regulators while still conveying the impression that their product had medical benefits. I would not trust anyone who would do this farther than I could throw them, though I admit my bias against the whole business model and wonder how someone could look at him or herself in the mirror while being involved with this kind of business. More than a red flag, it was a big, waving, crimson banner.

What brought me up really short, however, was that he was on an extended leave of absence from this company to serve as a mission president. Yeech. 

Of course, even a cursory examination of the list of MP's shows that several of them made their living-filthy lucre in my book-in MLM companies. 

Am I blinded by my prejudice towards a business model that I consider to be fraudulent on it's face? Is it none of my stinking business? Or am I right to be a bit uncomfortable when I see men called to leadership after spending their professional lives promoting dishonest practices, at least IMHO?

I would say yes, what a person does in their professional life definitely affects their worthiness, and I am not just talking about pimps, prostitutes, pornographers and money launderers . I feel like in the church we have adopted too much of a corporate culture where profit and capital are some of the greatest of virtues, and a persons business is just business, separate from their spiritual lives. Its funny because in the days of Brigham Young, what a person did for work was seen to be a critical part of their commitment to the gospel. In most cases, it is not so much what your training or position is, as it is what you do with that training/position. Are you the type of Doctor who lies to patients and insurance companies? Are you the type of insurance agent who denies legitimate claims because you can get away with it? Are you the type of lawyer who defends and lies for individuals/corporations you know are guilty of serious crimes thereby thwarting justice? are you the type of ceo who cares more for yourself and your stockholders than for your employees and customers? Are you a dishonest salesman/marketing agent/businessman? Are you a dishonest scholar only interested in forwarding your own agenda? Are you a dishonest journalist who skews the truth? Or, are you a dishonest employee/employer of any kinds who cheats your employers/employees or customers? I believe that every working person will, if they think deep enough find areas of their professional lives where they have sinned. We may like to compartmentalize our lives in order to feel better about ourselves, but I don't believe God sees things that way.  

[omni]

If only MLM'ers could see how the rest of the world sees them.

[DJBrown]

I've always had one pet peeve about living in Utah, as much as I like it here and love Utahn's. Well, there's another, but it has little to do with this discussion.

But that peeve has really stuck in my craw, and it's Multi Level Marketing companies, of which Utah is practically the center of the MLM universe. I see how they are set up to enrich the very few at the top at the expense of the many who will lose money in it no matter how hard they work, and how much time and capital they invest. You literally have a better chance of making a living by becoming a professional gambler. 

But I  was brought up short when I stumbled across the social media profile of a guy I knew in high school. Three red flags caught my eye:

-He became a lawyer. (OK, so even the Kingdom needs good lawyers, this one is a little bit TIC. We even have lawyers who have become apostles.)

-He specialized in offering legal services to MLM companies, including a few of the largest and most successful in Utah. That WAS a big red flag for me. 

-A few years ago, he helped found one of these MLM companies, and was retained by them as their general counsel. In that capacity, he wrote letters to the distributors of this snake oil fine product telling them what to say to customers to avoid getting in trouble with government regulators while still conveying the impression that their product had medical benefits. I would not trust anyone who would do this farther than I could throw them, though I admit my bias against the whole business model and wonder how someone could look at him or herself in the mirror while being involved with this kind of business. More than a red flag, it was a big, waving, crimson banner.

What brought me up really short, however, was that he was on an extended leave of absence from this company to serve as a mission president. Yeech. 

Of course, even a cursory examination of the list of MP's shows that several of them made their living-filthy lucre in my book-in MLM companies. 

Am I blinded by my prejudice towards a business model that I consider to be fraudulent on it's face? Is it none of my stinking business? Or am I right to be a bit uncomfortable when I see men called to leadership after spending their professional lives promoting dishonest practices, at least IMHO?

 

I knew a member held fairly high callings in the church who was an executive at one of the Vegas Casinos.

 

That bothered me a bit.

[The Nehor]

No.  One can not intentionally sin and be worthy and the pornography industry, no matter how you participate, is sin.

 

So are 99% of MLM companies, so are exploitative lending practices, so is selling crap with dishonesty. To be honest I would expect God to be harsher with someone oppressing a widow through exploitative and predatory lending practices then he is with someone making smut. Jesus told some of the religious leaders of his day that prostitutes would get into heaven before they did and the only point of comparison was occupation.

 

 

If only MLM'ers could see how the rest of the world sees them.

 

If the rest of the world saw them as they are they would dry up. They prey upon the ignorant, the naive, the excessively trusting, and the greedy. I have sympathy for all but the last.

[strappinglad]

It is my understanding that lawyers are charged with the duty to defend a client aggressively and to the full extent allowed by law. The judge and/or jury are charged with deciding guilt ,not the defendant's lawyer. If a lawyer were to tell authorities that his client was guilty he would likely be in jeopardy himself.

As coreyb said , all professions can be practiced honestly or dishonestly. That said, there are some professions which are better left alone. As the old joke about the Bishop and his counselor who were in a bar when a fight broke out...the Bishop said " this is no place for 2 high priests."

[jwhitlock]

 

Dont even get me started on the Living Scriptures people...

 

Too late. You've opened the box and it can't be stuffed back in.

 

Take the worst aspects of MLM, add in the misuse of ward directories as sales call lists, sprinkle in out of context quotes from church leaders as part of your sales pitch, produce a product that is completely condemned by Deuteronomy 4:2, and put guilt-ridden threats at the beginning of every video about how you are going to burn and become a minion of Satan if you make a copy of the video, and what do you get?

 

Living Scriptures.

Edited May 9, 2014 by jwhitlock

[Duncan]

There is a guy in my ward who works with computers at the provincial lotteries place. Pres. Eyring's son works at Vivint, this dirty alarm installation/selling place. Don't get me started on it!

[The Nehor]

Too late. You've opened the box and it can't be stuffed back in.

 

Take the worst aspects of MLM, add in the misuse of ward directories as sales call lists, sprinkle in out of context quotes from church leaders as part of your sales pitch, produce a product that is completely condemned by Deuteronomy 4:2, and put guilt-ridden threats at the beginning of every video about how you are going to burn and become a minion of Satan if you make a copy of the video, and what do you get?

 

Living Scriptures.

 

Counterpoint: The Alma tracting scene still makes me giggle.

[omni]

There is a guy in my ward who works with computers at the provincial lotteries place. Pres. Eyring's son works at Vivint, this dirty alarm installation/selling place. Don't get me started on it!

Unfortunately Utah County is filled with MLMs, pest control, alarms, and "mentoring" companies - all of which are known for their deceptive sales tactics. Even more unfortunate is that most of these are staffed primarily with recent RMs.

[Coreyb]

Unfortunately Utah County is filled with MLMs, pest control, alarms, and "mentoring" companies - all of which are known for their deceptive sales tactics. Even more unfortunate is that most of these are staffed primarily with recent RMs.

Yes, brother Brigham would be so disappointed in us mormons

[Yirgacheffe]

Everyone who sells MLM garbage is going to hell.

I am okay with this.

I am okay with this too, I'd include the people who create toy packaging. Also they should have a designer Hell created specifically to address their lives here, maybe they could be on TV shows for the people in heaven.

[Bob Crockett]

I find MLMs abhorrent.

 

However, the libertarianism in me teaches that there are reasons they exist and are successful; they offer psychic benefits to participants which trascend usual good business practices.  So, I don't see Saints working in these companies any different or worse than ones who work for prisons, work for the NFL, work for casinos, slaughter operations; real estate sales.  To each his own; if it isn't illegal, then who are we to judge how somebody else spends their money?

 

But, then again, I'm a lawyer.   I certainly have  a whale of a lot of respect for nurses and physical therapists.  A lot more than for my own professoin.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Bob Crockett