stemelbow Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 A few months ago in Elder's Quorum I asked the quorum, what's the benefit of the gospel? What benefit do you have over others? I think at some point, after following up we ended up all a little stumped. So, let's see your thoughts. We often hear, or I have so I assume others do also, a member proclaim gratitude for the gospel in his/her life and related to that an explanation of why he/she is grateful. The explanations usually get me thinking. So without the gospel, some may say, I'd be wasting my life with drugs or other things. But that person saying as much, doesn't know that at all. And since most people who aren't LDS aren't wasting their life with drugs or other things, why do we make that assumption? Indeed, why do we act as though we are privileged for gospel knowledge? Ok. Let's hear it. Any ideas?
The Nehor Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 A few months ago in Elder's Quorum I asked the quorum, what's the benefit of the gospel? What benefit do you have over others? An open path to exaltation with eternal lives, unlimited power, infinite joy, and mastery over the cosmos so that it dances to your will. Seriously, what more do you want? 4
Kenngo1969 Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) ... So without the gospel, some may say, I'd be wasting my life with drugs or other things. But that person saying as much, doesn't know that at all. And since most people who aren't LDS aren't wasting their life with drugs or other things, why do we make that assumption? Indeed, why do we act as though we are privileged for gospel knowledge?Ok. Let's hear it. Any ideas?Actually, anyone who wasn't born into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or who increased his or her level of activity in it after a prolonged period of inactivity, can provide a valid "before-and-after" or "without-versus-with" comparison. So actually, more than a few people can say with reasonable certainty what you're convinced they can't say. Just sayin'! I'm not sure what the proportion of membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is who are first- or second-generation members and/or converts versus born-in-the-covenant, but I would wager (if I were a wagering man! ) that a larger proportion of Church membership is composed of converts rather than born of multiple born-in-the-covenant generations. And even though I've spent my whole life in the Church of Jesus Christ, I have family members who, although they have been baptized, do not live Church standards. Although we move in different circles (which is to say, we're not close), we're close enough that I can imagine at least one universe in an infinite number of possible universes in which I would have taken one or more of the paths that they have taken away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do I know for absolute certain that such a fate would have befallen me? No. But can I say that there's a reasonable probability it would have. Edited April 28, 2014 by Kenngo1969
Duncan Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 I know I have had a Bishopric member say he doesn't read the BOM anymore because he knows all the stories and he's different from the guy I had in bishopric a few years ago who never read it so but their loss not mine
mfbukowski Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 A model of the universe which brings me peace in all I do and makes absolutely perfect sense to me, so that when I look up on a starry night, I can say "Thanks!" with all my heart, and mean it. 2
stemelbow Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 An open path to exaltation with eternal lives, unlimited power, infinite joy, and mastery over the cosmos so that it dances to your will. Seriously, what more do you want? You saying people who aren't LDS are closed to the path of exaltation? If not, then what is the benefit?
stemelbow Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 Actually, anyone who wasn't born into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or who increased his or her level of activity in it after a prolonged period of inactivity, can provide a valid "before-and-after" or "without-versus-with" comparison. So actually, more than a few people can say with reasonable certainty what you're convinced they can't say. Just sayin'! I'm not sure what the proportion of membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is who are first- or second-generation members and/or converts versus born-in-the-covenant, but I would wager (if I were a wagering man! ) that a larger proportion of Church membership is composed of converts rather than born of multiple born-in-the-covenant generations. What they can't be sure of is if they would be any better off or not if they had not joined the Church. They can merely make guesses, just like the rest of us. And even though I've spent my whole life in the Church of Jesus Christ, I have family members who, although they have been baptized, do not live Church standards. Although we move in different circles (which is to say, we're not close), we're close enough that I can imagine at least one universe in an infinite number of possible universes in which I would have taken one or more of the paths that they have taken away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do I know for absolute certain that such a fate would have befallen me? No. But can I say that there's a reasonable probability it would have. No offense, but just numbers speaking, there are probably millions more people out of the Church who are in all respects as good as or better than you or I. That could suggest given similar circumstances you could be as good, worse or better than you are with or without the Church. As per your family members, it might give you some idea, but it might not. Perhaps all of them would be better off if they were born in Nepal and were never converted, eternally speaking.
stemelbow Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 I know I have had a Bishopric member say he doesn't read the BOM anymore because he knows all the stories and he's different from the guy I had in bishopric a few years ago who never read it so but their loss not mine uh...perhaps wrong thread?
Duncan Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 uh...perhaps wrong thread? oh maybe! but in terms of Gospel knowledge and where it gets you, here where I live, not having it or not wanting it, seems to get you in leadership
stemelbow Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 A model of the universe which brings me peace in all I do and makes absolutely perfect sense to me, so that when I look up on a starry night, I can say "Thanks!" with all my heart, and mean it. So the billions of people without such a model in their heads are less privileged? Less at peace?
stemelbow Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 oh maybe! but in terms of Gospel knowledge and where it gets you, here where I live, not having it or not wanting it, seems to get you in leadership I see. Lol. That is weird. 1
Ahab Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 A few months ago in Elder's Quorum I asked the quorum, what's the benefit of the gospel? What benefit do you have over others?I think at some point, after following up we ended up all a little stumped. So, let's see your thoughts.We often hear, or I have so I assume others do also, a member proclaim gratitude for the gospel in his/her life and related to that an explanation of why he/she is grateful. The explanations usually get me thinking. So without the gospel, some may say, I'd be wasting my life with drugs or other things. But that person saying as much, doesn't know that at all. And since most people who aren't LDS aren't wasting their life with drugs or other things, why do we make that assumption? Indeed, why do we act as though we are privileged for gospel knowledge?Ok. Let's hear it. Any ideas?What Joseph Smith said about how we are saved by gaining knowledge of salvation comes to my mind, including what he said about how we can be saved only by gaining knowledge and only to the extent that we gain knowledge of salvation.A person who doesn't know the benefits of gaining knowledge of salvation doesn't even know what salvation is.When I think of what I would be without the knowledge I have of how to be saved I cringe, and I'm not even what I will be when I gain all knowledge of our Father in heaven yet.
JDave Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 A few months ago in Elder's Quorum I asked the quorum, what's the benefit of the gospel? What benefit do you have over others?To rephrase, we start with the assumption that all people on earth have some varying amount of knowledge of truth and are also blessed with the Light of Christ. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints profess to have a knowledge of God's plan that accepts all the truths found in other religions/idea systems and also provides a more complete picture of life, the universe, and everything. In addition, members are given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and saving ordinances through the authority of God's priesthood. And you are asking what the "benefit delta" is between being a Mormon and being anything else is? 1
The Nehor Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) You saying people who aren't LDS are closed to the path of exaltation? If not, then what is the benefit? Yes. Edit: I should perhaps qualify that. At this time you are required to be LDS. You could get in by receiving the ordinances in another dispensation and not be LDS. It is the ordinances that matter. They have been given when there was no church on the earth. At the present time you have to belong to the church to get the ordinances. Edited April 28, 2014 by The Nehor 2
bluebell Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 So the billions of people without such a model in their heads are less privileged? Less at peace? Just because someone can still have peace or a good life without having some specific kind of knowledge doesn't mean that the knowledge has no worth, right? 1
pogi Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) A few months ago in Elder's Quorum I asked the quorum, what's the benefit of the gospel? What benefit do you have over others?I think at some point, after following up we ended up all a little stumped. So, let's see your thoughts.We often hear, or I have so I assume others do also, a member proclaim gratitude for the gospel in his/her life and related to that an explanation of why he/she is grateful. The explanations usually get me thinking. So without the gospel, some may say, I'd be wasting my life with drugs or other things. But that person saying as much, doesn't know that at all. And since most people who aren't LDS aren't wasting their life with drugs or other things, why do we make that assumption? Indeed, why do we act as though we are privileged for gospel knowledge?Ok. Let's hear it. Any ideas? Heres a few ideas: Elder B.H. Roberts said, because God is all-wise, all-loving, and completely unselfish, “other Intelligences worship him, submit their judgment and their will to his judgment and his will. … This submission of mind to [God] is worship.” (In Smith, Teachings, p. 353, fn.8.) The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” (History of the Church, 6:310-12 capitalization modernized; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 7 1844) “We consider that God has created man with a mind capable of instruction, and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the intellect; and that the nearer man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater his enjoyments, till he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and like the ancients, arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker, and is caught up to dwell with Him. But we consider that this is a situation to which no man ever arrived in a moment.” (History of Church, 2:8; from “The Elders of the Church in Kirtland, to Their Brethren Abroad,” Jan 22, 1834) “The principle of knowledge is the principle of salvation. This principle can be comprehended by the faithful and diligent; and every one that does not obtain knowledge sufficient to be saved will be condemned. The principle of salvation is given us through the knowledge of Jesus Christ.“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death [see 1 corinthians 15:25-26] (History of the Church 5:387-88; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on May 14, 1843.) “If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peacable things-that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal (D&C 42:61).” “And the greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. (D&C 84: 19).” “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3).” Moroni 7 - And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil 3 Nephi 5: 20 – “…and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls.” D&C 131 :5-6 - "The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood. It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance." Edited April 28, 2014 by pogi 1
seriously honestly Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 Ahab, how do you reconcile that with D&C 137:7-8 "all who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom"
JLHPROF Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 You saying people who aren't LDS are closed to the path of exaltation? If not, then what is the benefit? So the billions of people without such a model in their heads are less privileged? Less at peace? Yes and yes, although all will be given an opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. But unless they have accepted it, then yes, they are missing an essential. "As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved...A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth." Joseph Smith
janderich Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 One who fully and completely receives the gospel is assured a place at the right hand of God. They do not merely believe, but know they will be exalted. And this assurance may be received in this life. Imagine what feelings, what understanding, comes to the heart of one given such a knowledge. In short, their hope is solidified, their peace is continuous, and their heart is full of love. Nothing in the world can touch this. 1
pogi Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) You saying people who aren't LDS are closed to the path of exaltation? If not, then what is the benefit? D&C 13018 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. 19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. The bennefit is a more profound knowledge of God and his purposes. Peace that comes through knowledge of gospel doctrines such as eternal families and baptism for the dead, etc., a more perfect obedience to God's law which predicates blessings in this life and an apparent advantage in the wold to come. Edited April 29, 2014 by pogi
The Nehor Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Ahab, how do you reconcile that with D&C 137:7-8 "all who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom" It's not going to be any easier to accept the gospel there. There is no magic in death that will cause hordes of people to demand the ordinances of exaltation and then obey their covenants faithfully to fulfill them. 2
mfbukowski Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 So the billions of people without such a model in their heads are less privileged? Less at peace?I made mine, they get to make theirs. That was a really snide comment and I have no clue what rubbed you the wrong way
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 What Joseph Smith said about how we are saved by gaining knowledge of salvation comes to my mind, including what he said about how we can be saved only by gaining knowledge and only to the extent that we gain knowledge of salvation. We can gain knowledge after this life. We don't need to be Mormon to gain much of that knowledge. It probably could be shown that plenty of old wise people have a better knowledge of the truths of salvation than many a Mormon. Hell they probably don't even have to be old and wise. A person who doesn't know the benefits of gaining knowledge of salvation doesn't even know what salvation is. That's assuming someone who isn't LDS is not also gaining knowledge of salvation during their lives. When I think of what I would be without the knowledge I have of how to be saved I cringe, and I'm not even what I will be when I gain all knowledge of our Father in heaven yet. That essentially suggests you cringe at nearly everyone seeing as Mormon makes up about .2% of the population on this planet.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 To rephrase, we start with the assumption that all people on earth have some varying amount of knowledge of truth and are also blessed with the Light of Christ. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints profess to have a knowledge of God's plan that accepts all the truths found in other religions/idea systems and also provides a more complete picture of life, the universe, and everything. In addition, members are given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and saving ordinances through the authority of God's priesthood. And you are asking what the "benefit delta" is between being a Mormon and being anything else is? Hmm...I guess. But as it is saving ordinances will be accomplished for many, perhaps most, and presumably all. It doesn't matter if someone was LDS in this life. I would suggest via all the tools available to humans, many that aren't LDS understand things about eternity that many LDS don't. God, as I see it, uses all tools at His disposal. If all he had was the Church then such a tiny percentage of people seem to even matter to Him.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 Yes. Edit: I should perhaps qualify that. At this time you are required to be LDS. You could get in by receiving the ordinances in another dispensation and not be LDS. It is the ordinances that matter. They have been given when there was no church on the earth. At the present time you have to belong to the church to get the ordinances. huh? Makes the idea that ordinances are done posthumously meaningless. I can't buy into that.
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