bluebell Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I dont' have enough data. That's why I brought it here, to get more ideas. In your own life you can't think of any blessings that you have because of the gospel?
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. I'm not saying that it does. But if foreknowledge then all my pleas to the Father, if I am destined to Outer Darkness, are worthless. He might as well ignore me completely, which sometimes I get the feeling He does. Uh oh...if I'm ignored, maybe He's ignoring me because He knows where I'm going to end up. Oh great. Some days possibly but I am under orders to share the gospel so I gotta do it. So do you do it because you are under orders to do it, or for some other reason? Several times a week seems ridiculous. I've never met anyone who is with the missionaries that much. When I was on a mission with all the great members I had contact with, none were close to working with us several times a week. WHen you say several times a week, how often is that? 5 or 6 times a week? Or 1 or 2? or 15 or 16? Other times I have seen lives change dramatically and been humbled as people repent and turn their lives towards God. And perhaps those lives would be better off if they didn't run into you at all. Perhaps their repentance and their turning their lives would have come at a more appropriate time for each of them. Perhaps it is that they changed and repented, but later realized they were ready for that.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 In your own life you can't think of any blessings that you have because of the gospel? I can repeat any of the same things as anyone else, I'm sure. But when I think about it, is it really a benefit to me? I'm not so sure, as scary as that sounds. So I need help. Sorry for being a weak-assed fool.
bluebell Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I can repeat any of the same things as anyone else, I'm sure. But when I think about it, is it really a benefit to me? I'm not so sure, as scary as that sounds. So I need help. Sorry for being a weak-assed fool. No need to apologize. I'm just trying to understand what you are saying better.
The Nehor Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I'm not saying that it does. But if foreknowledge then all my pleas to the Father, if I am destined to Outer Darkness, are worthless. He might as well ignore me completely, which sometimes I get the feeling He does. Uh oh...if I'm ignored, maybe He's ignoring me because He knows where I'm going to end up. Oh great. You aren't destined for anything. You choose your destiny. So do you do it because you are under orders to do it, or for some other reason? Several times a week seems ridiculous. I've never met anyone who is with the missionaries that much. When I was on a mission with all the great members I had contact with, none were close to working with us several times a week. WHen you say several times a week, how often is that? 5 or 6 times a week? Or 1 or 2? or 15 or 16? 2 or 3 on average would be my guess. Occasionally 1. Depends on what is going on that week. I am a ward missionary so it is part of one of my callings. So yes, I am under orders. That is part of the reason and probably the most important. Usually I am happy to go but in those cases where I am not it is good to have the instructions to give me the will to do what I may not feel like doing. And perhaps those lives would be better off if they didn't run into you at all. Perhaps their repentance and their turning their lives would have come at a more appropriate time for each of them. Perhaps it is that they changed and repented, but later realized they were ready for that. I leave that in God's hands. He is free to tell me not to teach someone at any time. Until such a time the general rule holds and I trust God has some idea what He is doing. Omniscience is neat that way.
bluebell Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I'm not saying that it does. But if foreknowledge then all my pleas to the Father, if I am destined to Outer Darkness, are worthless. He might as well ignore me completely, which sometimes I get the feeling He does. Uh oh...if I'm ignored, maybe He's ignoring me because He knows where I'm going to end up. Oh great. Have ever studied the D&C, specifically how God deals with those people who (we know) eventually actually leave the church or become very hostile against it? He doesn't ignore them. He doesn't withhold anything from them just because He knows they eventually will leave Him. In fact, He continues to promise them many blessings and to encourage their repentance, even with the foreknowledge that He has. And no one is 'destined' for outer darkness.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 You aren't destined for anything. You choose your destiny. But the Father already knows my choice before any situation presents itself for me to choose. 2 or 3 on average would be my guess. Occasionally 1. Depends on what is going on that week. I am a ward missionary so it is part of one of my callings. So yes, I am under orders. That is part of the reason and probably the most important. Usually I am happy to go but in those cases where I am not it is good to have the instructions to give me the will to do what I may not feel like doing. That sounds better. You aren't super human. I leave that in God's hands. He is free to tell me not to teach someone at any time. Until such a time the general rule holds and I trust God has some idea what He is doing. Omniscience is neat that way. Such mighty faith in you. I hope to get back to that someday. Hope is a start at least.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 Have ever studied the D&C, specifically how God deals with those people who (we know) eventually actually leave the church or become very hostile against it? He doesn't ignore them. He doesn't withhold anything from them just because He knows they eventually will leave Him. In fact, He continues to promise them many blessings and to encourage their repentance, even with the foreknowledge that He has. And no one is 'destined' for outer darkness. Thanks for that. But perhaps I'm worse off than any of the faith-leavers. And as it is maybe none of them are heading to outer darkness. Perhaps some, one or a few of them are to be exalted. We speak as though we know their final outcome sometimes. Perhaps we do not.
halconero Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Salvation is for all...not just the smallest percentage of humanity, which is what it'd be if we assume only LDS are saved.I come from the knowledge is gained by all,or potentially so, in this life. its not limited to a select few. It comes in a different way to most people. We LDS get some, but we are limited as well. Ultimately, in the end, I suspect many who are exalted will not have been LDS at all. At that stage any LDS who also is exalted will be only as knowledgeable as others. Salvation for all is not a doctrine of the Church, and Exaltation especially isn't. Also, only members of the Lord's Church are saved, whether Latter-day Saints, or those from previous dispensations. Latter-day Saints have the biggest advantage with regards to spiritual knowledge, which is of greatest value. 2
thesometimesaint Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 You saying people who aren't LDS are closed to the path of exaltation? If not, then what is the benefit? Depends. For those that didn't have the opportunity of knowing in full the Gospel in this life. They will get that opportunity in the next. For those of us that do in this life and reject it. The outcome will be a little different.
The Nehor Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 But the Father already knows my choice before any situation presents itself for me to choose. I think that is the wrong way to think about it. You are seeing God looking into the future and seeing your choices so therefore they are set in stone. Instead God is outside of time and all things to him are in an eternal Now. You make the choices as they happen; it is just that God sees all of those choices (and all of time) right now. The choice is not made until you make it.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 Salvation for all is not a doctrine of the Church, and Exaltation especially isn't. Also, only members of the Lord's Church are saved, whether Latter-day Saints, or those from previous dispensations. Latter-day Saints have the biggest advantage with regards to spiritual knowledge, which is of greatest value. If you say so. I just don't know that I can buy into these assumptions.
CV75 Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Interesting ideas, thanks. So what are the blessings of the gospel?This is a good General Conference talk about that: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/blessings-of-the-gospel-available-to-all?lang=eng Some of the blessings mentioned in that talk: Immortality, eternal life and exaltation in the world to come and the grounding this hope gives people in this life. The keys of revelation which allow God’s children the opportunity to understand His plan of happiness and actually apply eternal principles that help them become happy. The evidence of the love of our Father in Heaven. An opportunity to exercise of our agency more fully, to develop Christ-like perspective, and to obtain, recognize and show grace. A sure anchor for faith. A way to hold on to the best family traditions. A celestial culture in the home. Freedom from physical and spiritual restrictions to the exercise of agency.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 Depends. For those that didn't have the opportunity of knowing in full the Gospel in this life. They will get that opportunity in the next. For those of us that do in this life and reject it. The outcome will be a little different. Perhaps so. But this begs a few questions. Starting with what does it mean to have the opportunity of knowing in full the Gospel? I don't know that a single person can be considered knowing in full the gospel. Unless we just say the gospel is that Jesus died, sacrificing for sin, and raised again the third day. If that is what we mean, then far more than LDS know this simple truth.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 I think that is the wrong way to think about it. You are seeing God looking into the future and seeing your choices so therefore they are set in stone. Instead God is outside of time and all things to him are in an eternal Now. You make the choices as they happen; it is just that God sees all of those choices (and all of time) right now. The choice is not made until you make it. I don't see how this changes anything. Either He knows our outcome and thus our choices before we make them or He doesn't. I think theoretically, if one is going to end up in Outer Darkness, God already knowing that isn't going to do anything to change the course. Won't even need to try and help change one's course. It's already known what will end up.
The Nehor Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I don't see how this changes anything. Either He knows our outcome and thus our choices before we make them or He doesn't. I think theoretically, if one is going to end up in Outer Darkness, God already knowing that isn't going to do anything to change the course. Won't even need to try and help change one's course. It's already known what will end up. Again, I think that is wrong. It is a false dichotomy. To God there is no "before we make them" in which to know our decisions before we make them. And no, God is just. If you choose Outer Darkness He will give you every opportunity along the way to choose another course. Also, why is it always going to hell that people think God sees them doing? Why not enthroned in glory for eternity?
thesometimesaint Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Perhaps so. But this begs a few questions. Starting with what does it mean to have the opportunity of knowing in full the Gospel? I don't know that a single person can be considered knowing in full the gospel. Unless we just say the gospel is that Jesus died, sacrificing for sin, and raised again the third day. If that is what we mean, then far more than LDS know this simple truth. Knowing the Gospel as it has been revealed by the Prophets. God knows but we mortals don't know. So it is best to let him do the judging.That is a good start, and will get you further than someone whom doesn't know that.
bluebell Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Thanks for that. But perhaps I'm worse off than any of the faith-leavers. And as it is maybe none of them are heading to outer darkness. Perhaps some, one or a few of them are to be exalted. We speak as though we know their final outcome sometimes. Perhaps we do not. I'm just going to say it, though i know you are going to discount it (see, my foreknowledge isn't stopping me from trying. ) These thoughts you are having, that you are worse off than someone else who has had doubts or that God is ignoring you because He knows you aren't worth the effort are not from God. They are from satan. Don't listen to them. Fight them.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 Knowing the Gospel as it has been revealed by the Prophets. God knows but we mortals don't know. So it is best to let him do the judging. That is a good start, and will get you further than someone whom doesn't know that. So if someone who doesn't know that ends up exalted, then knowing that means very little right now, no?
thesometimesaint Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 So if someone who doesn't know that ends up exalted, then knowing that means very little right now, no? No one can be saved in ignorance. We can't be damned in it either. EVERYONE will have the gospel taught to them whether in this life or the next. Whether we accept it or reject it is up to us.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) Again, I think that is wrong. It is a false dichotomy. To God there is no "before we make them" in which to know our decisions before we make them. And no, God is just. If you choose Outer Darkness He will give you every opportunity along the way to choose another course. You sure have a good perspective on God's perspective, but again I'm not sure that that is changing anything. How do you know God will give someone, whom He knows will be in Outer Darkness for eternity, every opportunity to choose another course? What point would He have to do so? The whole point here is for us to learn and grow. but if He knows someone is not fit for progress why even pay attention to him/her? Also, why is it always going to hell that people think God sees them doing? Why not enthroned in glory for eternity? I see far more LDS people reveling in their future salvation than in their future damnation. Not sure what you mean by always. Edited April 29, 2014 by stemelbow
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 I'm just going to say it, though i know you are going to discount it (see, my foreknowledge isn't stopping me from trying. ) These thoughts you are having, that you are worse off than someone else who has had doubts or that God is ignoring you because He knows you aren't worth the effort are not from God. They are from satan. Don't listen to them. Fight them. Perhaps you're right. But perhaps you are wrong. perhaps God wants us to challenge. Perhaps He needs me to reach the low levels of humility and lack self-worth.
stemelbow Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 No one can be saved in ignorance. We can't be damned in it either. EVERYONE will have the gospel taught to them whether in this life or the next. Whether we accept it or reject it is up to us. But what level of acceptance must we reach? What level of understanding of the gospel is acceptable? You bring up exactly what I was thinking. We speak as though it's a benefit to know the gospel, but all will eventually, so yiptey and big deal. We aren't privileged above others.
seriously honestly Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 "It's not going to be any easier to accept the gospel there. There is no magic in death that will cause hordes of people to demand the ordinances of exaltation and then obey their covenants faithfully to fulfill them." That's not what this verse it talking about, though. It's saying that those who would have accepted the gospel with all their heart before death will be granted the celestial kingdom, even though they had no knowledge of the gospel. So I don't see how this verse meshes with what Ahab was talking about. (My quote function isn't working, sorry)
thesometimesaint Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 But what level of acceptance must we reach? What level of understanding of the gospel is acceptable? You bring up exactly what I was thinking. We speak as though it's a benefit to know the gospel, but all will eventually, so yiptey and big deal. We aren't privileged above others. Whatever level of exaltation we want. Everyone will have a full understanding of the Gospel. No one is going to be saved in ignorance, nor is anyone going to be damned in ignorance. It is a benefit now and in the Resurrection. Any degree of intelligence we obtain in this life will rise with us in the next, and if a man receive more intelligence in this life the better it will be for him in the Resurrection. Yes we are more privileged above others. For better or worse with that privilege comes tremendous responsibility to help our fellow man become privileged just like we are.
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