..."get Out!"

[BookofMormonLuvr]

OK, so I just saw this meme on my cousin's wife's wall quoting TSM that reads...

"If you ever find yourself where you should not be, get out!"

I wondered about this statement- What if I don't want to?

What if I put myself where I "shouldn't be" to reach those who need the Messiah the most?

The Messiah ate with publicans and sinners- where the leaders of the Jews said He "shouldn't be".

Perhaps we should be more concerned about how our time is spent instead of where our time is spent.


 

[BCSpace]

Depends on whether or not you are able to spiritually withstand wherever it is you are; if you truly can be in the world but not of the world.

[mfbukowski]

You are in violation of the "Do Whatever a Meme Tells You To Do Rule", and will suffer the consequences.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm with BCSpace.  It depends on your reason for being there: as long as you're trying to light their candles rather than allowing them to extinguish yours, then perhaps, as you said, you really ought to be there.  (At least, long enough to bring them over to the Lord's side of the line! )

[cinepro]

You're missing a crucial point:

 

Mark 2

 

15And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

 

16And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

 

17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

 

The "publicans and sinners" had chosen to follow Jesus.  He wasn't hanging out at the local pool hall hoping his presence would influence people for the better while he shot a few games.

[Duncan]

I can't speak from experience but if you spent your time with Tarts in a Target parking lot on your lunch hour, I don't think the police will by your answer "I was just trying to be like Jesus" now, however if you met these sisters in a better setting, that could be different

[Duncan]

You're missing a crucial point:

 

 

 

 

The "publicans and sinners" had chosen to follow Jesus.  He wasn't hanging out at the local pool hall hoping his presence would influence people for the better while he shot a few games.

 

 

exactley!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

You're missing a crucial point:

 

 

 

 

The "publicans and sinners" had chosen to follow Jesus.  He wasn't hanging out at the local pool hall hoping his presence would influence people for the better while he shot a few games.

Why not? Are we so concerned about how we will look- "avoiding the appearance of evil"- that we will neglect the most needful among us?

 

A book I read a few years back changed my perspective on this...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gutter-Where-Meant-Lived/dp/0976035707

 

[Glenn101]

OK, so I just saw this meme on my cousin's wife's wall quoting TSM that reads...

"If you ever find yourself where you should not be, get out!"

I wondered about this statement- What if I don't want to?

What if I put myself where I "shouldn't be" to reach those who need the Messiah the most?

The Messiah ate with publicans and sinners- where the leaders of the Jews said He "shouldn't be".

Perhaps we should be more concerned about how our time is spent instead of where our time is spent.

 

 

The meme says "if you ever find yourself in a place where you should not be". It does not say "if you ever find yourself in a place where others say you should not be". In other words, the decision is yours to make to identify such places and use your agency in the way you feel best.

 

It is true that Jesus ate with publicans and other sinners. If he ate with anyone at all, he had to eat with sinners. There was no one else with whom to eat. I do not recall it being told of Jesus that he consorted with any of those sinners with the Jewish equivalents of bars or brothels.

 

I have a sister who wanted to help some of her friends who were having problems with sex, drugs, and whatever else, so she went and consorted with them where they lived and hung out. The results were that she fell into the same traps that she was trying to help her friends out of.

 

 

We are repeatedly admonished to "stand in Holy places" in the scriptures.

"But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die." (Doctrine and Covenants 45:32) That is just one.

 

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

You're missing a crucial point:

 

The "publicans and sinners" had chosen to follow Jesus.  He wasn't hanging out at the local pool hall hoping his presence would influence people for the better while he shot a few games.

 

This is it exactly.  Also, the Savior was in no danger of being misled, influenced, corrupted, or anything similar.  He was not going to be changed by the type of people he associated with.  We can be and often are influenced.

My father always taught me to make a circle of standards for myself, and while I can reach out to others who don't share those standards, I don't leave my circle to do so.  The Savior never did.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

So we should shout at them from our lofty towers? 

We just had a Seventy from India give the comments during the collection portion of the service tonight. The people lest likely to give food and care for the poor are the Christians. Perhaps, we need to do less talking.

Edited April 14, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[The Nehor]

OK, so I just saw this meme on my cousin's wife's wall quoting TSM that reads...

"If you ever find yourself where you should not be, get out!"

I wondered about this statement- What if I don't want to?

What if I put myself where I "shouldn't be" to reach those who need the Messiah the most?

The Messiah ate with publicans and sinners- where the leaders of the Jews said He "shouldn't be".

Perhaps we should be more concerned about how our time is spent instead of where our time is spent.

 

This is silly. Jesus was dealing with repentant outcasts who continued to be outcast because the leaders of the Jews were not interested in reclaiming them. He ate with prostitutes but he did not visit them when they were "on the clock". He ate with publicans but did not sit down and discuss with them how to make a quick buck through tax farming.

 

"What if I don't want to?"

 

The fact that you want to be where you shouldn't be should be cause for deep reflection.

 

I've heard this argument before. The Jesus justification is a cheap pastiche over our own desire. No one goes to bondage dance clubs to share the Messiah's love with the clubgoers and doing so is not synonomous with what the Savior did. No one goes to bars late at night to be an exemplar of virtue to help those there and the Savior did not match that either. They are there because they want to be. Just drop the shoddy justification for it.

 

We are happy to invite people out of the muck. We do not join them in the hopes of reclaiming them while they are there.

[Kenngo1969]

I can't speak from experience but if you spent your time with Tarts in a Target parking lot on your lunch hour, I don't think the police will by your answer "I was just trying to be like Jesus" now, however if you met these sisters in a better setting, that could be different

Depends on what [Ahem!] business was discussed (if any) and whether any money changed hands (and, sadly, it even depends on whether prostitution is illegal in the jurisdiction in question! )  I thought the Great White North was The Land of Anything Goes when it comes to such erstwhile "vices" as prostitution and drug use ... ?

[slamarwi]

So we should shout at them from our lofty towers? 

We just had a Seventy from India give the comments during the collection portion of the service tonight. The people lest likely to give food and care for the poor are the Christians. Perhaps, we need to do less talking.

Why does it always have to be from our "lofty towers?"( well, at least it provides great inflammatory imagery.)

 

I'm pretty sure assisting the local food bank isn't what President Monson had in mind.

[JLHPROF]

So we should shout at them from our lofty towers? 

We just had a Seventy from India give the comments during the collection portion of the service tonight. The people lest likely to give food and care for the poor are the Christians. Perhaps, we need to do less talking.

 

You seem more hung up on location than standards.  If I am strong enough to hang out in a bar every night with my scriptures preaching the gospel, well, good for me.  If I'm going to start getting a little thirsty and start wanting to bum a smoke from the guy next to me, maybe it's not such a good idea to be there.  It's not about where I go, it's about what I do when I'm there. 

 

And if I'm not as strong as the Savior (and believe me, I'm not) there are some places I shouldn't go.  I'm not going to start frequenting strip clubs in the hope of converting a stripper.

 

But I agree - we are sometimes very good Mormons but not such good Christians.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Talk about taking things to extreme ... going into Bondage Strip Clubs... really?

I never advocated any such thing... but we have to be willing to meet them at some level outside of our comfort zone to find and reach them/ Unless, of course, you think the missionaries will knock on their door some fine day. 

Maybe they just aren't worth the effort to reach? That would be quite a sight to bring into our fine sanctuaries.
 

[slamarwi]

You seem more hung up on location than standards.  If I am strong enough to hang out in a bar every night with my scriptures preaching the gospel, well, good for me.  If I'm going to start getting a little thirsty and start wanting to bum a smoke from the guy next to me, maybe it's not such a good idea to be there.  It's not about where I go, it's about what I do when I'm there. 

 

And if I'm not as strong as the Savior (and believe me, I'm not) there are some places I shouldn't go.  I'm not going to start frequenting strip clubs in the hope of converting a stripper.

 

But I agree - we are sometimes very good Mormons but not such good Christians.

Whether we're good Mormons / Christians, it's always better to throw a life ring than to jump in a raging river and have both people perish. We just need to throw more live saving devices.

[Duncan]

Depends on what [Ahem!] business was discussed (if any) and whether any money changed hands (and, sadly, it even depends on whether prostitution is illegal in the jurisdiction in question! )  I thought the Great White North was The Land of Anything Goes when it comes to such erstwhile "vices" as prostitution and drug use ... ?

 

 

it's still being debated in the SCOC I think anyways! but for me and my house, we won't partake!

[Kenngo1969]

it's still being debated in the SCOC I think anyways! but for me and my house, we won't partake! [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969].

Whew!  You had me worried for a second, there, Son!

[Kenngo1969]

I can't speak from experience but if you spent your time with Tarts in a Target parking lot on your lunch hour...

Hey, I just thought of something: what if they were Pop Tarts  (OK, so that'd be kind of an unusual "lunch," but still ...)

Edited April 14, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I regret bringing up this topic. Thank you all for your replies.

[JLHPROF]

Talk about taking things to extreme ... going into Bondage Strip Clubs... really?

I never advocated any such thing... but we have to be willing to meet them at some level outside of our comfort zone to find and reach them/ Unless, of course, you think the missionaries will knock on their door some fine day. 

Maybe they just aren't worth the effort to reach? That would be quite a sight to bring into our fine sanctuaries.

 

 

Your original issue ""If you ever find yourself where you should not be, get out!"" would seem like a valid instruction.  There are many places we should not go.  Anywhere that would cause me to violate my personal standards would seem to be what TSM is referring to.

Edited April 14, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Kenngo1969]

... Maybe they just aren't worth the effort to reach? That would be quite a sight to bring into our fine sanctuaries.

 

You do have a point ... to a point ... BOML.  We ought not forget the Utah (Mormon) bishop who "dressed down" (and I mean way down!) for Church a few months ago and was "disinvited" by a few of the members of his ward.  We all ought to remember the "Are-we-not-all-beggars" portion of King Benhamin's address, ought to be more like the Publican who said, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner," rather than his counterpart who said, "Lord, I thank thee that I am not as other men," and so forth. To that extent, you're right.

[mormonnewb]

This is silly. Jesus was dealing with repentant outcasts who continued to be outcast because the leaders of the Jews were not interested in reclaiming them. He ate with prostitutes but he did not visit them when they were "on the clock". He ate with publicans but did not sit down and discuss with them how to make a quick buck through tax farming.

"What if I don't want to?"

The fact that you want to be where you shouldn't be should be cause for deep reflection.

I've heard this argument before. The Jesus justification is a cheap pastiche over our own desire. No one goes to bondage dance clubs to share the Messiah's love with the clubgoers and doing so is not synonomous with what the Savior did. No one goes to bars late at night to be an exemplar of virtue to help those there and the Savior did not match that either. They are there because they want to be. Just drop the shoddy justification for it.

We are happy to invite people out of the muck. We do not join them in the hopes of reclaiming them while they are there.

You're right. We can often use Jesus as an excuse to engage in unrighteous behavior. It's one of MY favorite excuses and it's not like I need much of an excuse anyway

However, for the righteous amongst us, we should be clear that Jesus went to find his lost sheep. He didn't just call for them from behind temple walls. When a repentant tax collector came to Him, Christ INSISTED upon dining in his home. I suspect that He did so because Christ wanted a chance to meet his friends and family and influence them as well.

This is one way in which I noticed that my beloved saints seldom imitate Christ. We are quick to invite someone to OUR home, OUR church service, OUR family home evening, etc. We don't mind dealing with the "great unwashed," just so long as we don't have to get any of their filth on us.

I know a Protestant pastor who served as designated driver for a group of guys in his neighborhood. About once a month, they went out drinking together (the pastor drinks Diet Coke). I mentioned this at EQ once and the brothers were horrified that a "man of God" would hang out in bars.

Yet, I don't think that HF is horrified because now, ALL of these men regularly attend church. Now, don't get me wrong. They still go out for drinks every so often ... at Starbucks, but that's an improvement. And it probably would have never happened if the pastor had kept inviting them to Wednesday night Bible study instead of meeting them where they were.

That being said, it is a tricky line. At one point early on, the guys asked him to go with them to a strip club and he refused. He was not willing to engage in sin himself in order to save them. But I think we do have to be willing to be NEAR sin if we are going to redeem SINNERS.

It's like the famous line from the bank robber Willie Sutton. When asked why he robbed banks, he answered, "Because that's where they keep the money." In the same way, I think we need to be willing to go where they keep the sinners -- bars, nightclubs and Mormon message boards.

[Tacenda]

Funny thing is, some disaffected on NOM, mentioned that maybe TSM was talking directly to them.