..."get Out!"

[Glenn101]

It's like the famous line from the bank robber Willie Sutton. When asked why he robbed banks, he answered, "Because that's where they keep the money." In the same way, I think we need to be willing to go where they keep the sinners -- bars, nightclubs and Mormon message boards.

 

I can tell anyone, from experience, that the spirit of the Lord does not follow a person into a bar, etc. When I was much younger and in my first enlistment, some of the guys in my division would want me to go along with them on their bar hopping because I did not drink and would be able to help those that did drink find their way back to the ship. Those bars, and some of them do have good entertainment, are not places where I could feel the spirit of the Lord. Rather, there was another spirit there.

 

And there is a bit of a crab mentality among all too many in those places also. Some of my "friends" tried to spike my soda and tried to "help" me by paying a prostitute to teach me a few things. I decided that there were better ways and places to help them.

 

Glenn

[mormonnewb]

You do have a point ... to a point ... BOML. We ought not forget the Utah (Mormon) bishop who "dressed down" (and I mean way down!) for Church a few months ago and was "disinvited" by a few of the members of his ward. We all ought to remember the "Are-we-not-all-beggars" portion of King Benhamin's address, ought to be more like the Publican who said, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner," rather than his counterpart who said, "Lord, I thank thee that I am not as other men," and so forth. To that extent, you're right.

Amen! Amen! And amen!

[mormonnewb]

I can tell anyone, from experience, that the spirit of the Lord does not follow a person into a bar, etc.

What about at a wedding reception in Canaan? Can it be there? Or did it leave when Christ Himself "got behind the bar" (in a manner of speaking)?

I agree that an 18 yo recruit is no match for a group of rowdy soldiers. In that context, you're lucky if you can hold onto your own morality.

But as a middle-aged business professional, I should probably be able to "hold my own" at an after-work karaoke party.

[Rain]

The meme says "if you ever find yourself in a place where you should not be". It does not say "if you ever find yourself in a place where others say you should not be". In other words, the decision is yours to make to identify such places and use your agency in the way you feel best.

 

 Agreed. And it doesn't say "unless you can help someone" or "if you can't stay away from temptation".  It is pretty simple - it assumes that no matter what else is going on in your life/ the world/ the people you are with etc. that you shouldn't be there for any reason.  It says nothing about the one time you should be there to go save your brother from a DUI and killing someone.  It is talking about a specific moment in time.  What time?  Any time when you shouldn't be there. 

 

The debate only comes when there is a question of whether you should be there or not.

[Storm Rider]

So we should shout at them from our lofty towers? 

We just had a Seventy from India give the comments during the collection portion of the service tonight. The people lest likely to give food and care for the poor are the Christians. Perhaps, we need to do less talking.

 

You are not listening, but reacting to what is in your head. No one is saying not to reach out to others that are in need. The issue is must you sacrifice yourself i.e. forfeit your morals to meet with them. Put in crude terminology, do I need to go practice adultery to witness to those who are adulterers?  

 

It is not about being afraid of what others think, it is about remaining true to your commitments to your Savior and Heavenly Father.  No one is really disagreeing with seeking those who are also seeking. However, my only caution is that individuals need to be open to your message and witness. We can serve all that we meet in life by listening to them, but we teach and witness when another listens in return. 

[rodheadlee]

Did Joseph not flee Potiphar's wife?

[Glenn101]

What about at a wedding reception in Canaan? Can it be there? Or did it leave when Christ Himself "got behind the bar" (in a manner of speaking)?

I agree that an 18 yo recruit is no match for a group of rowdy soldiers. In that context, you're lucky if you can hold onto your own morality.

But as a middle-aged business professional, I should probably be able to "hold my own" at an after-work karaoke party.

 

I was not there at the wedding reception so I have to trust Jesus' judgement there.

As for the after hours karaoke party, just refer to my earlier post on what the meme says and does not say.

 

Glenn

[why me]

OK, so I just saw this meme on my cousin's wife's wall quoting TSM that reads...

"If you ever find yourself where you should not be, get out!"

I wondered about this statement- What if I don't want to?

What if I put myself where I "shouldn't be" to reach those who need the Messiah the most?

The Messiah ate with publicans and sinners- where the leaders of the Jews said He "shouldn't be".

Perhaps we should be more concerned about how our time is spent instead of where our time is spent.

 

I think that you may be misreading it. if you make a choice to be in an area in order to help people and you really want to be there, then there is no problem. However, if you suddenly find yourself among porn outlets or among hookers and you have no intention of preaching to them, then you may want to get out. I remember when I was a young adult. I used to hang out in unsavory places. Sometimes a young adult would say to me why go to that area because it wasn't uplifting. And of course, my respone was: because I like being there. I made my own choice.

 

So, if you are among sinners and you wish to help, by all means help them. However, if you are among sinners feeling tempted to join in the sin, get out.

[why me]

You're right. We can often use Jesus as an excuse to engage in unrighteous behavior. It's one of MY favorite excuses and it's not like I need much of an excuse anyway

However, for the righteous amongst us, we should be clear that Jesus went to find his lost sheep. He didn't just call for them from behind temple walls. When a repentant tax collector came to Him, Christ INSISTED upon dining in his home. I suspect that He did so because Christ wanted a chance to meet his friends and family and influence them as well.

 

I am not so sure about this. I don't remember Christ entering a brothel. Nor do I remember him entering a gang of thieves' den. However, if a sinner approached him, he did administer to the sinner. But I don't remember him actively seeking out murders, thieves, hookers, cheaters etc by living among them. But i could be wrong.

[why me]

Funny thing is, some disaffected on NOM, mentioned that maybe TSM was talking directly to them.

Maybe he was. if they felt that way, they should reflect on why they felt that way and do an reexamination of their own lives.

[mormonnewb]

I am not so sure about this. I don't remember Christ entering a brothel. Nor do I remember him entering a gang of thieves' den. However, if a sinner approached him, he did administer to the sinner. But I don't remember him actively seeking out murders, thieves, hookers, cheaters etc by living among them. But i could be wrong.

 

In Luke 19, we read about Jesus' encounter with Zacchaeus:

 

 

2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.

5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

I don't imagine that, up until that point, Zacchaeus' home was a place of holiness.  In fact, it's entirely likely that it was much more like a den of thieves, or in modern parlance, it was probably like the back room at the Bada Bing club on the Sopranos.  I'm almost certain that the people in Zacchaeus' house used bad language, drank to excess and probably, much worse.

 

Yet, Jesus didn't invite this man to come and abide with Him at the temple or at the synagogue.  And for this, He got the typical response from the righteous of His day.  "How can you hang out at the home of a sinner?  Righteous people don't go to wicked places!"

 

But what does the Savior say?  "The Son of man is come to seek and save that which was lost."  He doesn't say that He has come to wait to be approached by that which was lost.  Nor does He say that He came to seek but only in holy places that which was lost.  Likewise, in the parable of the Lost Sheep, here is what the Savior says about actively seeking out those who are lost in Luke 15:

 

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

 

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

 

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

 

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

 

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

 

Once again, you notice that the text does NOT read that the shepherd will "wait for the lost sheep to approach him," but rather that he will "go after that which is lost."  In fact, interestingly enough, it doesn't even say that the shepherd will first secure his other sheep before going after the lost one.  It says that the shepherd will leave the 99 in the wilderness; in danger.

 

But why?  Why risk it for the one?  In verse 7, Christ tells us exactly why: Heaven will rejoice more for that one found sinner than for 99 of the righteous who were never lost at all.

 

So, if we take Christ at His word, do we really think that He doesn't want us to take the risk, even at the cost of our own righteousness?  As I read this, Heaven is willing to risk me and HALF of my ward for the ONE prostitute on the corner or the ONE addict in the crack den.  I don't like it any better than you do because I think that Christ should favor ME.  I've been good (mostly).  I've followed the commandments (mostly).  I pray and read my scriptures (somely).  Yet, Heaven seems to be keeping score by its own rules and I'm fine with that.

Edited April 14, 2014 by mormonnewb

[why me]

In Luke 19, we read about Jesus' encounter with Zacchaeus:

 

 

2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.

3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.

5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

Notice that the sinner came to Jesus. I don't see jesus seeking him out. And that was my point.

[mormonnewb]

Notice that the sinner came to Jesus. I don't see jesus seeking him out. And that was my point.

 

But by insisting on being invited to Zacchaeus' house, Jesus is SEEKING OUT the other sinners.  Unless we think that Jesus was just really interested in Zacchaeus' sense of interior design, I see no other reason for Jesus to insist upon going to his house, but to meet the other members of Zacchaeus' household.  They had not sought out the Savior, but "the Son of man has come to seek and save that which was lost."

[why me]

But by insisting on being invited to Zacchaeus' house, Jesus is SEEKING OUT the other sinners.  Unless we think that Jesus was just really interested in Zacchaeus' sense of interior design, I see no other reason for Jesus to insist upon going to his house, but to meet the other members of Zacchaeus' household.  They had not sought out the Savior, but "the Son of man has come to seek and save that which was lost."

My point was that jesus did not go where he was not sought. He wasn't hanging around the brothels. The apostles would have been appalled. As a man, he would have experienced the same temptations as anyone else. And hanging out in brothels just may not have been a great idea. Or rumors would have started among the population that jesus was seen among prostitutes. I also don't see him hanging out with sinners. However, the apostles were certainly sinners before they were called to discipleship.

[blackhat]

OK, so I just saw this meme on my cousin's wife's wall quoting TSM that reads...

"If you ever find yourself where you should not be, get out!"

I wondered about this statement- What if I don't want to?

What if I put myself where I "shouldn't be" to reach those who need the Messiah the most?

The Messiah ate with publicans and sinners- where the leaders of the Jews said He "shouldn't be".

Perhaps we should be more concerned about how our time is spent instead of where our time is spent.

 

 

Hey, I just thought of something: what if they were Pop Tarts  (OK, so that'd be kind of an unusual "lunch," but still ...)

This is the spirit talking to you, It does not matter if you are there to do good for the Lord, If the Spirit tell you to get out, just do as your told and get out.   

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This topic absolutely breaks my heart.

Why not go and reach out to the prostitute on the street? There are ministries that do. The cops will know if you are a john or not.

And why seek out and reach out to those people?
 
Around 90% of women "voluntarily" involved in the sex trade were sexually abused as children, 90% !!! They are some of the most hurt among us,. needing the knowledge that JAH loves them and they are not damaged goods only useful for sex.

Is it any wonder the scriptures in several places speak kindly (not approvingly) of prostitutes, but strongly condemns the whoremongers (seller)?

If we can just look past ourselves and see why the person came to be in the situation they are in, perhaps we can get over ourselves and what others might think and seek after the truly lost.

 

Edited April 14, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Kenngo1969]

Hey,

 

Did you hear the one about the guy who walked into the bar?  (He forgot to duck ...)

 

Sorry.

 

Couldn't resist.

 

Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming ...

[Kenngo1969]

This is the spirit talking to you, It does not matter if you are there to do good for the Lord, If the Spirit tell you to get out, just do as your told and get out.   

I don't disagree, Blackhat.  I'm not sure where you got that misconception, but I don't disagree.

[Storm Rider]

This topic absolutely breaks my heart.

Why not go and reach out to the prostitute on the street? There are ministries that do. The cops will know if you are a john or not.

And why seek out and reach out to those people?

 

Around 90% of women "voluntarily" involved in the sex trade were sexually abused as children, 90% !!! They are some of the most hurt among us,. needing the knowledge that JAH loves them and they are not damaged goods only useful for sex.

Is it any wonder the scriptures in several places speak kindly (not approvingly) of prostitutes, but strongly condemns the whoremongers (seller)?

If we can just look past ourselves and see why the person came to be in the situation they are in, perhaps we can get over ourselves and what others might think and seek after the truly lost.

 

 

This is a good topic that you have brought up and is worth discussion; however, I would still disagree with your twist on the statement you cited. The difference is in one circumstance the Spirit is telling us to leave to protect us and in the other the Spirit is leading us to lend a hand to those in need.  I don't see a conflict between those positions. 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This is a good topic that you have brought up and is worth discussion; however, I would still disagree with your twist on the statement you cited. The difference is in one circumstance the Spirit is telling us to leave to protect us and in the other the Spirit is leading us to lend a hand to those in need.  I don't see a conflict between those positions. 

 

My contention is there are few places we "should not be" if the time is spent wisely. Bro. Monson doesn't speak of the Spirit telling you to leave, he is implying avoiding those places altogether. I believe we should stop avoiding, face what is in the world, and get our hands dirty inviting people to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

Selection: Matthew 22:- (1)>22:Intro(1)> Parable of the marriage supper.(2)>

22:1 And Jesus answered the people again, and spake unto them in parables, and said,(2)>

22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, who made a marriage for his son.(2)>

22:3 And when the marriage was ready, he sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding; and they would not come.(2)>

22:4 Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my oxen, and my fatlings have been killed, and my dinner is ready, and all things are prepared; therefore come unto the marriage.(2)>

22:5 But they made light of the servants, and went their ways; one to his farm, another to his merchandise;(2)>

22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.(2)>

22:7 But when the king heard that his servants were dead, he was wroth; and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.(2)>

22:8 Then said he to his servants, The wedding is ready; but they who were bidden were not worthy.(2)>

22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.(2)>

(2)>

22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all, as many as they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was furnished with guests.(2)>

(2)>

[Kenngo1969]

This topic absolutely breaks my heart.

Why not go and reach out to the prostitute on the street? There are ministries that do. The cops will know if you are a john or not.

...

You needn't be heartbroken, BOML.  I'll do my best to go where the Holy Spirit calls me, to flee when he tells me to flee, and to not go where he tells me to not go when he tells me to not go, and so on.  The thread can go on for another 50 pages and the bottom line is still the same: if the Holy Spirit calls one to go somewhere (even, and perhaps especially, somewhere he wouldn't go of his own accord), he should go; if the Holy Spirit tells one to stay out (or to get out) of somewhere, he should heed that instruction.  In any event, while I'm not going to invite temptation to sit down and rest awhile with me just because he's tired, I will, on the other hand, do my best to follow the spirit of King Benjamin's question, "Are we not all beggars?" to say, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner," rather than "Lord, I thank thee that I am not as other men," and so on.  I think the same is true of other participants in this thread: we're simply focused on different things ("rules," versus "exceptions," perhaps).

[Kenngo1969]

 

My contention is there are few places we "should not be" if the time is spent wisely. Bro. Monson doesn't speak of the Spirit telling you to leave, he is implying avoiding those places altogether. I believe we should stop avoiding, face what is in the world, and get our hands dirty inviting people to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

And here, with due respect, you're reading something into President Monson's statement that isn't there.  You're attacking a straw man.  How many times has President Monson, e.g., been in a meeting (certainly not somewhere he "shouldn't ought to be"), and has felt prompted, in the middle of the meeting, to go someplace else so that he can minister to the one?  Could the Holy Spirit prompt President Monson (or anyone else) to go, e.g., into a bar for a specific purpose in search of one of the Shepherd's lost sheep?  Certainly.  But, as a general rule, people don't go into such places in search of the Spirit of the Lord. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[MiserereNobis]

I know a Protestant pastor who served as designated driver for a group of guys in his neighborhood. About once a month, they went out drinking together (the pastor drinks Diet Coke). I mentioned this at EQ once and the brothers were horrified that a "man of God" would hang out in bars.

 

One priest in my diocese has a weekly meeting at a brewpub.  He calls it "Theology on Tap."  We sit around, drink beer, and talk about God.

 

 

I can tell anyone, from experience, that the spirit of the Lord does not follow a person into a bar, etc. When I was much younger and in my first enlistment, some of the guys in my division would want me to go along with them on their bar hopping because I did not drink and would be able to help those that did drink find their way back to the ship. Those bars, and some of them do have good entertainment, are not places where I could feel the spirit of the Lord. Rather, there was another spirit there.

 

We must remember that there is a wide diversity of "bars."  They are not all dirty college hang outs where the point is to be loud, get wasted, and fornicate.

 

Last night I drank some bourbon and scotch with friends at this bar.  The mere presence of alcohol, or the title of a bar, does not drive away God's spirit.  I've had many an incredible religious conversation over wine or beer.

 

[Garden Girl]

I agree, BoML, that you are twisting Pres Monson's statement and meaning... I can think of many situations into which I should not go or at least get out of... and if for some reason I ended up there, the Spirit would be prompting me to "get out!"  Example: attending a social gathering where cocktails turned to drunkeness for numerous individuals, coarse jokes or language, etc etc...

I rent a lot of movies, particularly current ones...There's been several that have been acclaimed and won awards, but when I started watching, the language and/or sexual content was such that I had to turn it off... one comes to mind... The Black Swan... Natalie Portman won the oscar for best performance, the movie won awards... it was about a ballet dancer so I rented it, but it was soon evident it was not for me and I had to turn it off... a perfect example of having to "get out!" 

This does not mean that I would not receive other promptings for occasions to reach out... the Spirit guides us for a reason. 

I highly doubt that if I went into a strip club (the example cited previously) that the Spirit would trail along behind me, or sit at the bar or table with me while a woman in a thong (sometimes if that) was giving lap dances or bumping and grinding on a pole.  And individuals participating in such a setting are not conducive to  my "presence" or the Spirit in the first place.   

There's other ways I can try to reach such women or other individuals, and organizations that I can assist to do so... 

In the meantime, I'll continue to listen to Pres Monson's admonition to "get out" of situations that cause the Spirit to depart...

 

GG

Edited April 14, 2014 by Garden Girl

[why me]

One priest in my diocese has a weekly meeting at a brewpub.  He calls it "Theology on Tap."  We sit around, drink beer, and talk about God.

 

 

What would pope francis say about a priest and his flock in this elegant bar?