JLHPROF Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 "Scholarly consensus recognizes that early Christians probably appropriated December 25 from pagan festivals such as the Dies Natalis Invicti, established by the Emperor Aurelian. Controversy, ancient and modern, regarding that date has had little influence in the LDS community. Presidents of the Church, including Harold B. Lee and Spencer W. Kimball, have reaffirmed that April 6 is the true anniversary of Christ's birth, but have encouraged Church members to join with other Christians in observing Christmas as a special day for remembering Jesus' birth and teachings." Encyclopedia of Mormonism Pg 61 "This is the annual conference of the Church. April 6, 1973, is a particularly significant date because it commemorates not only the anniversary of the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this dispensation, but also the anniversary of the birth of the Savior, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ." - President Harold B. Lee "“We believe April 6th to be the birthday of Jesus Christ as indicated in a revelation of the present dispensation already cited (D&C 20:1), in which that day is made without qualification the completion of the one thousand eight hundred and thirtieth year since the coming of the Lord in the flesh. This acceptance is admittedly based on faith in modern revelation, and in no wise is set forth as the result of chronological research or analysis. We believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, April 6, B.C. 1.” - Elder James E. Talmage DISCLAIMER: I know that "The Church does not take an official position on this issue", but I don't care. MERRY CHRISTMAS!
pogi Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 (edited) Merry Christmas! What other events in church history happened on this day? It seems like there are a ton but I can't remember them all. Anybody want to add to this list: 1. Christ's birth - year 02. Church organized - 18303. Corner stone of Nauvoo temple laid - 18414. Cornerstone laid for SLC temple - 18535. St. George temple dedicated - 18776. Capstone of SLC temple was placed - 18927. SLC temple dedicated by Woodruff exactly 40 years after ground breaking - 1893 Another land-mark event on this day in history in 1722 - Peter the Great ended tax on men with beards. Men with beards everywhere have reason to celebrate this day! Edited April 6, 2014 by pogi 2
Coreyb Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 "Scholarly consensus recognizes that early Christians probably appropriated December 25 from pagan festivals such as the Dies Natalis Invicti, established by the Emperor Aurelian. Controversy, ancient and modern, regarding that date has had little influence in the LDS community. Presidents of the Church, including Harold B. Lee and Spencer W. Kimball, have reaffirmed that April 6 is the true anniversary of Christ's birth, but have encouraged Church members to join with other Christians in observing Christmas as a special day for remembering Jesus' birth and teachings." Encyclopedia of Mormonism Pg 61 "This is the annual conference of the Church. April 6, 1973, is a particularly significant date because it commemorates not only the anniversary of the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this dispensation, but also the anniversary of the birth of the Savior, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ." - President Harold B. Lee "“We believe April 6th to be the birthday of Jesus Christ as indicated in a revelation of the present dispensation already cited (D&C 20:1), in which that day is made without qualification the completion of the one thousand eight hundred and thirtieth year since the coming of the Lord in the flesh. This acceptance is admittedly based on faith in modern revelation, and in no wise is set forth as the result of chronological research or analysis. We believe that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, April 6, B.C. 1.” - Elder James E. Talmage DISCLAIMER: I know that "The Church does not take an official position on this issue", but I don't care. MERRY CHRISTMAS!Did you hear Elder Bednar's talk today? He said it is the accurate date, based on revelation
cinepro Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 (edited) Elder Bednar should read the Deseret News.... What was the real date of Jesus' birth? Unless Elder Bednar is referring to a new or otherwise unknown revelation, he was probably basing his comment on D&C 20. The Deseret News article explains it thusly: The date of April 6 comes from the date that the LDS Church was originally organized in 1830. D&C 20 begins with this introductory verse: "The rise of The Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it (the church) being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April." Steven C. Harper, a BYU assistant professor of church history and a volume editor of the Joseph Smith Papers, said in a phone interview that some people, including Elder Talmage, have read this verse as if it is the Lord speaking and revealing precisely that Christ was born 1,830 years before that day and that the revelation was given on April 6, 1830. The recent discovery of the Book of Commandments and Revelations manuscript of D&C 20, however, showed that the verse was actually an introductory head note written by early church historian and scribe John Whitmer — something he did for many of the revelations, Harper said. "So those are separate from the texts that Joseph produces by revelation." The manuscript, published as part of the Joseph Smith Papers, also shows that the revelation was given on April 10 — not April 6. So although it references the organization of the church a few days earlier, the revelation — which topically has nothing to do with the birth date of Christ — and its introductory verses "shouldn't be read as if it is a revelation of the birth date of Jesus Christ," Harper said. "The interpretation that has been most popular over time is very much subject to question; that's all I'm saying." Edited April 6, 2014 by cinepro 2
pogi Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Oooohhh here's an interesting one I just found: April 6, 1884 - James E. Talmage writes in his journal of his experiments with hashish: "Continued my experiment by taking 20 grains Cannabis Indica and the effect was felt in a not very agreeable way." In his defense, he did not inhale...it was ingested. http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=14146
Scott Lloyd Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Elder Bednar should read the Deseret News.... What was the real date of Jesus' birth? Unless Elder Bednar is referring to a new or otherwise unknown revelation, he was probably basing his comment on D&C 20. The Deseret News article explains it thusly:I know Michael de Groote, the author of the article you cite. His desk is only a few feet from mine. I think he would be the first to tell you he does not speak for the Church. 1
The Nehor Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 But how will we supplant Christmas with Smithmas if they are so far apart? I think someone messed up here.
canard78 Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 And this wasn't the only time that John Whitmer would identify a date with similar language. Another time he wrote, "It is now June the twelfth, one thousand eight hundred and thirty one years, since the coming of our Lord and Savior in the flesh." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700094707/What-was-the-real-date-of-Jesus-birth.html?pg=all Maybe it was like the Queen... two birthdays!
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Here is what we do know using the Bible alone...The Children of Israel entered into Egypt as a means of deliverance and were saved by Joseph their younger brother..."saved".430 years later on the same day in which they entered, they were once again "delivered"..."saved". This marked the first Passover, as they began their journey to the promised land. Jesus Christ gave his life upon the cross during the Passover, and more than likely the same day as he too delivers Israel...the chosen and Israel, those who come unto him and become "Israel". Here is the part where we by extension, know that he was born on the same day as he died, 33 years earlier which is when the deliverer come to "save" the earth from judgement.Then by revelation comes another deliverance, the establishment of modern days Israel...the Church is once again upon the earth in it's fulness...founded by revelation on April 6...during the Passover.If all of this is correct, then April 6, 1830 (Sunday)...today the 184 Conference. Christ will come (based on revelation and extension) someday on a Sunday, April 6, ????.
frank_jessop Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 I know Michael de Groote, the author of the article you cite. His desk is only a few feet from mine.I think he would be the first to tell you he does not speak for the Church.+1
frank_jessop Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 DISCLAIMER: I know that "The Church does not take an official position on this issue", but I don't care.MERRY CHRISTMAS!Apparently now it does. Though 2 Prophets and now an Apostle have affirmed the date. I am curious though, how you know or knew, the Church did not take an official position?
Lachoneus Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 April 6, 1830 (Sunday)April 6, 1830, was a Tuesday.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 April 6, 1830, was a Tuesday.Yes...I was thinking one thing and typed another. I was one way back to edit, but you had already put in quotes.
pogi Posted April 6, 2014 Posted April 6, 2014 Apparently now it does. Though 2 Prophets and now an Apostle have affirmed the date.I am curious though, how you know or knew, the Church did not take an official position? There is this from The Encyclopedia of Mormonism: The LDS Church has not taken an official position on the issue of the year of Christ's birth. Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle, offers what for the present appears to be the most definitive word on the question: "We do not believe it is possible with the present state of our knowledge-including that which is known both in and out of the Church-to state with finality when the natal day of the Lord Jesus actually occurred" (Vol. 1, p. 349, n. 2). http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/April_6
JLHPROF Posted April 6, 2014 Author Posted April 6, 2014 Merry Christmas! What other events in church history happened on this day? It seems like there are a ton but I can't remember them all. Anybody want to add to this list: 1. Christ's birth - year 02. Church organized - 18303. Corner stone of Nauvoo temple laid - 18414. Cornerstone laid for SLC temple - 18535. St. George temple dedicated - 18776. Capstone of SLC temple was placed - 18927. SLC temple dedicated by Woodruff exactly 40 years after ground breaking - 1893 Another land-mark event on this day in history in 1722 - Peter the Great ended tax on men with beards. Men with beards everywhere have reason to celebrate this day! Well, believe it or not, I've also heard the Christ's death was on April 6th as well. There is an old Jewish tradition that this means something - http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1452114/jewish/Is-It-Special-to-Pass-Away-on-Ones-Birthday.htm We celebrate Easter in the spring...maybe there's truth there too.
Tacenda Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 I know Michael de Groote, the author of the article you cite. His desk is only a few feet from mine.I think he would be the first to tell you he does not speak for the Church.Elder Bednar never hangs out on these boards I'm assuming, so I don't fault him.
MiserereNobis Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 We're not even out of Lent yet and it's time to celebrate Christmas? We've still go Advent to go, too! (I know there are many on this board that believe that the metaphoric meaning of scripture and religion is more important than the strictly literal. To those, I say, think about the beauty of Christmas happening right next to the winter solstice, the darkest night. The Light and Life of the world came into the world at the point of most intense darkness. Now that is something that we all can celebrate in our individual lives -- when we are most downtrodden, the Lord Jesus Christ is ready to be birthed into our lives.) 1
MiserereNobis Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 Oooohhh here's an interesting one I just found: April 6, 1884 - James E. Talmage writes in his journal of his experiments with hashish: "Continued my experiment by taking 20 grains Cannabis Indica and the effect was felt in a not very agreeable way." In his defense, he did not inhale...it was ingested. http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=14146 Oh my! That hippie! Thanks for pointing this out. I noticed that no one else has yet to respond to it
3DOP Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 We're not even out of Lent yet and it's time to celebrate Christmas? We've still go Advent to go, too! (I know there are many on this board that believe that the metaphoric meaning of scripture and religion is more important than the strictly literal. To those, I say, think about the beauty of Christmas happening right next to the winter solstice, the darkest night. The Light and Life of the world came into the world at the point of most intense darkness. Now that is something that we all can celebrate in our individual lives -- when we are most downtrodden, the Lord Jesus Christ is ready to be birthed into our lives.) "In our 'Advent' we showed, after the Holy Fathers, that the diminution of the physical light may be considered as emblematic of those dismal times which preceded the Incarnation." "God has heard our prayers; and it is on this day of the Winter Solstice---which the Pagans of old made so much of by their fears and rejoicings---that he gives us both the increases of the natural light, and him who is the Light of our souls." "On this Day which the Lord hath made, says, St. Gregory of Nyssa, 'darkness decreases, light increases, and Night is driven back again. No, brethren, it is not by chance, nor by any created will, that this natural change begins on the day when he shows himself in the brightness of his coming, which is the spiritual Life of the world. It is Nature revealing, under this symbol, a secret to them whose eye is quick enough to see it; to them I mean, who are able to appreciate this circumstance of our Saviour's coming..." quotes from the Liturgical Year, Dom Gueranger, Vol. II, Book One on Christmas, pp. 8, 9 on the Mystery of Christmas 1
cinepro Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 I know Michael de Groote, the author of the article you cite. His desk is only a few feet from mine. I think he would be the first to tell you he does not speak for the Church. I've heard it said the facts speak for themselves, but I guess the question is whether or not they speak for the Church, or Elder Bednar does? The Deseret News article was based on this BYU Studies article: Dating the Birth of Christ Apparently, two BYU Professors "responded" to the original article: A Response to a Recent Proposal The response is subscriber's-only right now, so if anyone has access and can summarize it, I'd be interested in what they had to say.
frank_jessop Posted April 7, 2014 Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) There is this from The Encyclopedia of Mormonism:The LDS Church has not taken an official position on the issue of the year of Christ's birth. Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle, offers what for the present appears to be the most definitive word on the question: "We do not believe it is possible with the present state of our knowledge-including that which is known both in and out of the Church-to state with finality when the natal day of the Lord Jesus actually occurred" (Vol. 1, p. 349, n. 2).http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/April_6Pogi, your reliance on McConkie's is misguided. McConkie's statement was not accurate when written; in the EOM article or when McConkie wrote it in his book. The error of your reliance on the EOM is compounded by the contradictory nature of the EOM article. Here is a statement from the EOM:"Presidents of the Church, including Harold B. Lee (p. 2) and Spencer W. Kimball (p. 54), have reaffirmed that April 6 is the true anniversary of Christ's birth, ..."The Harold B. Lee statement is from 1973, thus McConkie was clearly wrong in 1979. Furthermore, Lee spoke at General Conference, and his statement has been republished by the Church. McConkie was speaking for himself, and there is no reason for anyone to believe that McConkie speaking for himself negates an statement of a Prophet at General Conference.Kimball's statement is from 1980, and again his statement was during General Conference and has been republished by the Church.The EOM article a poor piece of "research" (if it even deserves that title). John Hall contradicts himself; Hall is misguided in his attempt to allow a statement from McConkie bind the Church. Edited April 7, 2014 by frank_jessop
thesometimesaint Posted April 8, 2014 Posted April 8, 2014 Apparently now it does. Though 2 Prophets and now an Apostle have affirmed the date.I am curious though, how you know or knew, the Church did not take an official position? You won't find it in our Scriptures.
Ahab Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) You won't find it in our Scriptures.Do you know what scripture is? Edited April 10, 2014 by Ahab
thesometimesaint Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 Do you know what scripture is? The Standard Works of the Church. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
cinepro Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 You won't find it in our Scriptures. Yes you will. It's in the first verse of D&C 20.Now, you can argue that the first verse of D&C 20 shouldn't be in the scriptures, or be considered "scripture", but you can't say it isn't in the scriptures. And the whole problem is that we have Apostles and Prophets who are referencing D&C 20:1 as being reliable (and according to Elder Bednar, even "revelatory").This is quickly becoming my second favorite case study on how people approach the scriptures, the statement of Church leaders, and how they consider things "doctrine" (second behind Noah's flood, of course).
Recommended Posts