Tom Phillips Case Thrown Out

[strappinglad]

I am currently trudging through Mormon's Codex. It is on occasion a daunting task but enjoyable and enlightening. Just finished the chapter on languages. One anecdote was illuminating. It spoke about a translation from Mayan to Spanish by Native speakers/trained in both languages. The Bishop overseeing the work had to call a halt because of the constant vehement disagreement between the native scholars as to what meaning the symbols had. Apparently , like most glyphic writing, a symbol could have many interpretations . Only translating by the Gift and Power of God could possibly present the meanings as intended. A straight word for word exchange would have been altogether inadequate.

For those who are still unclear about the different possible interpretations of plain script, may I suggest reading " Gulliver's Travels " .

[Abulafia]

Cdowis, I was talking to my husband tonight about this issue, asking if a church can ever be found guilty of fraud. He spoke about confidence tricksters, who may lure people in (I've seen them operating myself with various types of games like 'pick the cup the coin is under) by strategic placement of insiders who make a lot of money. I watched as one man lost all his holiday money. Was the confidence trickster working outside the law? Not sure, but both must bear some responsibility - the person being tricked and the person doing the trickery, that I do believe.

All religion should come with a warning, buyer beware. Though I guess that doesn't help those who are raised in any particular faith.

[rpn]

 

Did I get something wrong on Tom Phillips?  I think he has been anointed, or is it the second anointing and cannot be excommunicated.  Just picking that up from reading else where.

To my knowledge there is nothing that prohibits his excommunication --- the prophet has the keys to bind on earth or to unbind on earth.  I think I recall names on the published nauvoo Second Anointing list who were thereafter excommunicated (which they did in Nauvoo with relative ease unknown in modern times).   His claim is that the church will not excommunicate him because he will tell all the disciplinary counsel everything he knows and the church won't want people to ever hear it.  I think it highly likely that TP has represented to the court that he no longer believes the doctrines of the church and/or no longer worships with it.   In most faiths that would make him a former member.  It may also be true that TP resigned, though he has several times sworn he never will.

 

The church doesn't publish the results of disciplinary actions except where necessary to protect others.   So it is possible that erroneous assumptions have been made.  Or it is possible that it he is a former member because he acts like it.   Or it is possible that TP knows he has been but is unwilling to say that publically.

[Danzo]

I've already pointed out two things in my previous post. Joseph's polyandry and polygamy, and that blacks could not hold the priesthood. (My parents joined in 1970)

The missionaries turned up at our door within days of my grandmother's death, so my mother was vulnerable anyway. I've since learned that the Elders would check the obituary columns. I'm not sure she would have let them in at any other time. We lived next to a Mormon Church for the first seven years of my life, and it was always known as that strange American religion.

 

How long did it take then to find out about Blacks and the priesthood and polygamy?

 

Do you think that Blacks and the Priesthood and Polygamy should have been part of the discussions?

 

I guess everyone does missionary work differently, but I don't believe I ever looked at an obituary on my mission.

 

Are you saying that the missionaries found you by looking at obituaries? I suppose anything is possible, but I think such would be highly unusual, I would never had done that on my mission. I wonder if anyone here did that or have heard of that being a practice on their missions?

[strappinglad]

I was wondering why we got such a 'warm' reception when we knocked on the door of a mafia boss who had recently been whacked.

[Bob Crockett]

 

I guess you don't hold truck with Silence DoGood or Richard Saunders or . . . the owner of those two pseudonyms.

I guess that you agree that character attacks by anonymous posters is fine, or anonymous attacks by Mormons on anti-Mormons with names is admirable.  Tom Phillips has made a huge mistake.  He's also not very articulate and mormonthink has gone downhill with whatever quality it used to have, which wasn't much.  He's wasting his time and is acting rather like a cretin.   But he knows where to find me to take issue with that.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[cdowis]

Cdowis, I was talking to my husband tonight about this issue, asking if a church can ever be found guilty of fraud. He spoke about confidence tricksters, who may lure people in (I've seen them operating myself with various types of games like 'pick the cup the coin is under) by strategic placement of insiders who make a lot of money. I watched as one man lost all his holiday money. Was the confidence trickster working outside the law? Not sure, but both must bear some responsibility - the person being tricked and the person doing the trickery, that I do believe.

All religion should come with a warning, buyer beware. Though I guess that doesn't help those who are raised in any particular faith.

 

Very interesting, so let's take a look.

 

Those who fall for the trickster intuitively knows the risk but greed blinds them.  On the other hand those investigating the church is generally motivated by a sincere desire to improve their lives -- to become a better person, to understand the purpose of life, and to live a godly life.  The missionaries give them sufficient information to understand the fundamentals of the revealed Gospel and teach them how to communicate with Father in Heaven.

 

It is a matter between themselves to obtain that answer through divine manifestation, a personal matter between themselves and Father.  Unlike other organizations, we leave the responsibility to the investigator for their own testimony and teach them how to obtain it.  It is later that their minds become poisoned, their soil becomes hardened or overcome with weeds, and, rather than taking personal responsibility, they sometimes blame the church.

[Tacenda]

Somehow, I don't think it would have mattered much what disclosure anyone had been given.

Well wake up and smell the hot cocoa. There are many, many people that are deeply affected. Many who have resigned that were your golden members.

You can close your eyes and plug your ears but they and I, are still here. When is something going to come from the leaders, something like an apology? There are some leaders still living, that definitely could have prevented the whitewash.

Possibly you think we're all silly. Some have paid thousands toward tithing, spent many hours on callings away from their family. Maybe curtailed a life dream due to church. Made certain decisions, they wouldn't have if it weren't for the church. And now can't move on and have become stagnant, maybe even wanting to be vindicated.

We believe in being honest....and the church may not have been completey that, due to worrying about hurting someone's testimony and appearing more mainstream possibly.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Tacenda

[Coreyb]

Well wake up and smell the hot cocoa. There are many, many people that are deeply affected. Many who have resigned that were your golden members.

You can close your eyes and plug your ears but they and I, are still here. When is something going to come from the leaders, something like an apology? There are some leaders still living, that definitely could have prevented the whitewash.

Possibly you think we're all silly. Some have paid thousands toward tithing, spent many hours on callings away from their family. Maybe curtailed a life dream due to church. Made certain decisions, they wouldn't have if it weren't for the church. And now can't move on and have become stagnant, maybe even wanting to be vindicated.

We believe in being honest....and the church may not have been completey that, due to worrying about hurting someone's testimony and appearing more mainstream possibly.

I blame church correlation. We should just tone it down with that

[The Nehor]

Well wake up and smell the hot cocoa. There are many, many people that are deeply affected. Many who have resigned that were your golden members.

 

This is not a new thing. Many "golden" members have fallen and I expect they will continue to do so. I saw a counselor in a Stake Presidency who I admired and learned much from fall within a period of a few weeks. He went from one of the strongest men I knew to someone plagued with doubts and fear.

 

 

You can close your eyes and plug your ears but they and I, are still here. When is something going to come from the leaders, something like an apology? There are some leaders still living, that definitely could have prevented the whitewash.

 

There was no whitewash. I do not think leaders owe members an apology because members are ignorant. Where did the idea come from that the church has to grab every member like a child and give them a doctorate level education in the gospel? It wouldn't work anyways.

 

One of the requirements for exaltation is revelation, lots of it. I doubt those who insisted on being led in all things in church history then turned to God for knowledge of the eternities. Those who are unwilling to seek light and knowledge on their own are incapable of being exalted unless they repent.

 

 

Possibly you think we're all silly. Some have paid thousands toward tithing, spent many hours on callings away from their family. Maybe curtailed a life dream due to church. Made certain decisions, they wouldn't have if it weren't for the church. And now can't move on and have become stagnant, maybe even wanting to be vindicated.

 

Then they should demand an apology from God if they must. I have done this. It is a strange experience to come before an omnipotent God with a list of grievances. We even have a book in the Old Testament about it. He is the One who asked it of you. He is the One who allowed the conditions that allow for doubt. He is the One who has chosen not to give us definitive proof of the Book of Abraham or the Book of Mormon.

 

I hope those who suffer have the ability to stop picking on servants and take their anger to the One who gave the commands. It is cowardice to abuse the messenger and ignore the one in charge. Picking on men from a safe distance is easy; if you mean it try it in prayer. Only God can heal their wounds in any case so the sooner they haul their case before Him the sooner they can find reconciliation and be made whole.

[sdc999]

this poor Tom Phillips guy can't catch a break.  When he was an active Stake President, Bishop, ect,  the mormon people loved and adored him and the anti mormon people thought he was a whack job for believing the hype.  Now, fast forward,  because he has left the church and fights against it, the mormons who once thought highly of him think he is inarticulate, stupid, childish.  

News alert:  He's the same guy - just fighting for a different cause now.  Right? Wrong?  His character is the same.  Everybody loves to attach themselves to someone with the same opinion and will only look at the virtues and overlook the flaws.  The flaws were there before - maybe someone who prayed, placed hands, annointed, etc...  just plain failed. 

[Avatar4321]

It's a tricky one, but right now there are a lot of hurt people who feel that the church has withheld salient information from them. That's the reality of the situation. Blaming them for being ignorant fools perhaps isnt the best policy for resolving the situation, and surely we all want the situation resolved.

 

People can and do get offended at others for no reason. Why should we need to change because he has a problem accepting the truth?

 

We have a great work to do. We have to share the Gospel and work our our salvation. If someone is going to get offended because we do that, that's not something we can fix.

[sdc999]

This is not a new thing. Many "golden" members have fallen and I expect they will continue to do so. I saw a counselor in a Stake Presidency who I admired and learned much from fall within a period of a few weeks. He went from one of the strongest men I knew to someone plagued with doubts and fear.

 

Fallen is an inner church term..    Jumped ship is an out of church term.

 

 

 

There was no whitewash. I do not think leaders owe members an apology because members are ignorant. Where did the idea come from that the church has to grab every member like a child and give them a doctorate level education in the gospel? It wouldn't work anyways.

 

Members ignorant?   So when specific questions are asked and incorrect answers are given.  I think that either makes a bishop a liar or ignorant.

 

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

News alert:  He's the same guy - just fighting for a different cause now.  Right? Wrong?  His character is the same.

 

I disrespectfully disagree. People change....a lot. Character changes.....a lot.

 

The entire gospel is based around the death of our character and the rebirth of a better. The fearless evangelist Paul is not the same character as Saul who consented to the killing of Christians. Alma the Younger was not the same man when he preached the gospel and watched the faithful killed before his eyes as he was when he traveled out seeking to destroy the church.

 

I am not who I was 5 years ago or even 1 year ago.

[Avatar4321]

this poor Tom Phillips guy can't catch a break.  When he was an active Stake President, Bishop, ect,  the mormon people loved and adored him and the anti mormon people thought he was a whack job for believing the hype.  Now, fast forward,  because he has left the church and fights against it, the mormons who once thought highly of him think he is inarticulate, stupid, childish.  

News alert:  He's the same guy - just fighting for a different cause now.  Right? Wrong?  His character is the same.  Everybody loves to attach themselves to someone with the same opinion and will only look at the virtues and overlook the flaws.  The flaws were there before - maybe someone who prayed, placed hands, annointed, etc...  just plain failed. 

 

I seriously hope he wasnt making decisions like filing frivolous lawsuits while he was a member. I doubt he is the same guy at all. People change.

[The Nehor]

Fallen is an inner church term..    Jumped ship is an out of church term.

 

And?

 

Members ignorant?   So when specific questions are asked and incorrect answers are given.  I think that either makes a bishop a liar or ignorant.

 

Quite possibly. I am not sure what specific instance you are referring to here though and it has nothing to do with what I said.

 

If you can't cope with fallible people occasionally getting it wrong then become so righteous that you get the truth poured out directly from the source. If you can't then be a little more humble and seek truth yourself. If you can't do that then you will never enter into the highest glory.

 

Members who spend their time carping about leaders are going to get a rude awakening come Judgment Day when they are held to the impossible standard they insisted others must meet.

[Duncan]

And?

 

 

Quite possibly. I am not sure what specific instance you are referring to here though and it has nothing to do with what I said.

 

If you can't cope with fallible people occasionally getting it wrong then become so righteous that you get the truth poured out directly from the source. If you can't then be a little more humble and seek truth yourself. If you can't do that then you will never enter into the highest glory.

 

Members who spend their time carping about leaders are going to get a rude awakening come Judgment Day when they are held to the impossible standard they insisted others must meet.

 

 

Luke 11:46 "for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers."

[Danzo]

Possibly you think we're all silly. Some have paid thousands toward tithing, spent many hours on callings away from their family. Maybe curtailed a life dream due to church. Made certain decisions, they wouldn't have if it weren't for the church. And now can't move on and have become stagnant, maybe even wanting to be vindicated.

We believe in being honest....and the church may not have been completey that, due to worrying about hurting someone's testimony and appearing more mainstream possibly.

I have paid thousands toward tithing, spent many hours on callings away from my family, curtailed life's dreams due to the the church and made certain decisions that I wouldn't have if it weren't for the church.

 

I feel that this has blessed me.

 

Don't tell me the "church" lies.  The church is an organization, not a person, if there has been dishonesty, then a human is being dishonest.

 

In my experience, the leaders of the church have been very honest. I haven't caught anyone in a lie, which one has lied to you?

[Tacenda]

I have paid thousands toward tithing, spent many hours on callings away from my family, curtailed life's dreams due to the the church and made certain decisions that I wouldn't have if it weren't for the church.

I feel that this has blessed me.

Don't tell me the "church" lies. The church is an organization, not a person, if there has been dishonesty, then a human is being dishonest.

In my experience, the leaders of the church have been very honest. I haven't caught anyone in a lie, which one has lied to you?

None have lied to me personally. But some say they have borne false witness.

I don't understand how some can disbelieve and some believe, with the same information. It's hell when you've given up religion and next on it's heels is non belief of anything else.

[Danzo]

None have lied to me personally. But some say they have borne false witness.

 

Who has borne false witness?

[Abulafia]

Cdowis, I appreciate you will not agree with me, but I think in a very real sense Tom is the church's creation.

In the investigator discussions, the investigator is asked to get a divine witness of the Book of Mormon using the Moroni scripture. The rationale is that if the Book of Mormon is true (which is understood to mean historically as well as spiritually true) then Joseph Smith is a prophet and the church is truly Jesus' restored church.

Once one is in then one is discouraged from reading any literature that would contradict or question that narrative. That would be from Satan who would try and lead you away from the church. Unbelievable as it sounds, my mother was advised not fo read CS Lewis for her religious enlightenment, but to stick to church sources.

With all good intentions, the way the missionaries framed the discussions and the way the members encouraged mum to limit herself to only church sources, would lead to someone who puts a bubble around themselves, a protective bubble that would keep them active and believing, but would stop questioning. Tom in a sense is the result. Someone who lived in this wonderful, protective bubble of belief for years and then switched the rational part of his brain on, and started to think outside the box he was given for his own spiritual protection.

I am not sure of the wisdom of using the courts to seek redress, but I understand Tom, because most of us who allowed ourselves to even consider that the church wasn't everything it said it was, do feel an enormous sense of loss and a feeling of being lied to, perhaps over issues that would be considered minutiae for some, and important to others.

Ultimately, I guess one could completely blame Tom, and he does bear blame, but to only blame Tom, misses the opportunity to correct mistakes on the other side of the fence, ie church practice, however well intentioned. If the leaders want a loyal people then they must be honest with them.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Abulafia

[why me]

Cdowis, I appreciate you will not agree with me, but I think in a very real sense Tom is the church's creation.

In the investigator discussions, the investigator is asked to get a divine witness of the Book of Mormon using the Moroni scripture. The rationale is that if the Book of Mormon is true (which is understood to mean historically as well as spiritually true) then Joseph Smith is a prophet and the church is truly Jesus' restored church.

 

I suppose that we are all someone's or something's creation. Hard to avoid it. But how Tom has handled the situation is his own doing. We all have choices and he chose his course. It didn't have to be this way. He didn't need to bring this case to court. He didn't need to seek support in doing it. But he did. It was his creation.

 

I suppose that I can blame my mother for who I am now. I am her creation. So, what should I do if this raising was not the best? I can hopefully make the right decisions for myself without revenge or hard feelings. I can cowboy up and be the best person I can be. It does come down to me in the end. So, it is with Tom.

Edited March 21, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Once one is in then one is discouraged from reading any literature that would contradict or question that narrative. That would be from Satan who would try and lead you away from the church. Unbelievable as it sounds, my mother was advised not fo read CS Lewis for her religious enlightenment, but to stick to church sources.

With all good intentions, the way the missionaries framed the discussions and the way the members encouraged mum to limit herself to only church sources, would lead to someone who puts a bubble around themselves, a protective bubble that would keep them active and believing, but would stop questioning. Tom in a sense is the result. Someone who lived in this wonderful, protective bubble of belief for years and then switched the rational part of his brain on, and started to think outside the box he was given for his own spiritual protection.

 

I don't think that his is true. With the internet people have a broad sense of knowledge. I think that what happened in the internet war was that the church was caught off guard. It is now correcting their mistakes in not taking the internet seriously. The mormon church comes down to this: who wrote the book of mormon? And we only have three possibilities: joseph smith, sidney rigdon or ancient prophets. A person must choose one of the three. What facts do you wish to them to know about this?

 

What do you believe? I don't need an answer. But it really does come down to this question. All the rest is fluff and the interpretation of it. No history is perfect.

Edited March 21, 2014 by why me

[why me]

I've already pointed out two things in my previous post. Joseph's polyandry and polygamy, and that blacks could not hold the priesthood. (My parents joined in 1970)

 

I joined in 1975 and knew that blacks could not hold the priesthood. I heard it in sunday school or with the members. Or maybe I heard it from the missionaries. I was attending sunday school before I was baptized. So, I got some of the facts.  Polygamy I am not so sure. It was in the magazines at that time and so I must have heard it. But during the missionary discussions...maybe not. But then, I wasn't expecting to get a history class either. I just remember that I had a spiritual experience that I could not deny and after that it did not matter if I read about joseph's polygamy in the ensign or heard that blacks could not hold the priesthood. My spiritual experience trumped church history.

[Danzo]

Unbelievable as it sounds, my mother was advised not fo read CS Lewis for her religious enlightenment, but to stick to church sources.

 

 

This is very unbelievable.  You do realize that CS Lewis is probably the most quoted Non LDS author in General Conference.

 

Although I do not doubt that your mother had this experience, it is hard for most of us to believe that whoever told her this represented the church in any way. For your mother to believe it, would mean that she hadn't been listening to general conference. 

Edited March 21, 2014 by Danzo