Abulafia Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Double post Edited March 24, 2014 by Abulafia
why me Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I have friends from my old ward, who sat down and had lunch with Tom on the day of the first hearing. I appreciate from first hand sources what Tom is about.Having said that, I do appreciate that there are people who think the church is so destructive that they want it to be destroyed. I'm not one of them, and I don't think Tom is either, but I could be wrong.I think that we need to see the actions for the words. This action by tom did not show good intent for the lds church. The church should excommunicate him because he is attempting to lead people away. But more importantly, he attempted to bring the person who leads the church to court. If not, it just may be difficult to understand why someone who cheats on a spouse can be exed but someone who attempts to lead people out of the church and who attempts to bring Monson to court gets a free pass. There needs to be some sense to it all. 2
reubendunn Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Tom Philips was my stake president in Coventry England. For him to say "I didn't know about....." is rather interesting to say the least. He was one of the more knowledgeable men in the stake at the time, and certainly knew about the Book of Mormon, tithing etc., as bishop and stake president, he would routinely ask about tithing to members seeking a temple recommend. He has a boulder sized chip on his shoulder for some reason, and, rather than do his own study, has chosen to cry "Foul" publically. The result being his 15 minutes of fame, and his nomination for Martyr of the Year, for his outstanding performance with the British Justice system. He knows better and has chosen to have selective memory about the very doctrines that he once defended and publically taught. 4
Abulafia Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Reuben, do you know what annoys me about this. I've heard at least 3 accounts of Tom's life now from his *friends*, that purportedly knew him. All basically demonizing the man.Have you listened to his Mormon Stories interview with John Dehlin. If you want to know what he went through, from the horses mouth, then listen to him. Edited March 24, 2014 by Abulafia
Abulafia Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I thought the 6000 year old earth was a silly one for him to put on the list, but if you listen to the discussion with John Dehlin, then for him it was a real problem. He went to people with questions and got short shrift. He takes the issues to his family and they can't cope.
Abulafia Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 The apostate narrative in the church can be incredibly damaging to families.
tsubotsubo Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Tom Philips was my stake president in Coventry England. Wow! Which ward were you in?
Popular Post Danzo Posted March 24, 2014 Popular Post Posted March 24, 2014 Excommunicating Tom for this, or pushing for his imprisonment on the basis that he abused the law, would be an utter and absolute PR disaster for the church, and they would be crazy to do it.Can you imagine...*Church excommunixates man for asking them to be more honest*I'm not saying I agree with Tom's use of the court system, but fundamentally I think that is at the heart of what he is trying to do. He is not a bad man. Can you imagine "Church excommunicates man for trying to imprison leader of church?" 5
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Tom Philips was my stake president in Coventry England. For him to say "I didn't know about....." is rather interesting to say the least. He was one of the more knowledgeable men in the stake at the time, and certainly knew about the Book of Mormon, tithing etc., as bishop and stake president, he would routinely ask about tithing to members seeking a temple recommend. He has a boulder sized chip on his shoulder for some reason, and, rather than do his own study, has chosen to cry "Foul" publically. The result being his 15 minutes of fame, and his nomination for Martyr of the Year, for his outstanding performance with the British Justice system. He knows better and has chosen to have selective memory about the very doctrines that he once defended and publically taught.That may be why he put the names of two other individuals on the court document -- because he himself could not honestly claim he did not know about these things but allegedly they could. To say it another way, he could not accurately or credibly cast himself as the victim in the prosecution he was bringing forward, so he attached their names as alleged victims. I agree about the boulder-sized chip. Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Reuben, do you know what annoys me about this. I've heard at least 3 accounts of Tom's life now from his *friends*, that purportedly knew him. All basically demonizing the man.Have you listened to his Mormon Stories interview with John Dehlin. If you want to know what he went through, from the horses mouth, then listen to him.And, of course, we can rely on him not to give a self-serving account.
stemelbow Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) And, of course, we can rely on him not to give a self-serving account. I don't know if it is the case, but if his family has kept quiet about all of this, I hope they remain so. In my mind, that he's so public about how bad they are, speaks more about him than them. Whatever the case, I could be way wrong about any of it. I would say though, it seems incredibly stupid and heartless to make public family grievances like this. Edited March 24, 2014 by stemelbow 1
Bob Crockett Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I agree, why excommunicate him, let him face the judgement bar of Christ in full fellowship.Both the NT and D&C require excommunication. I think most leaders would rather not.
Abulafia Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I don't know if it is the case, but if his family has kept quiet about all of this, I hope they remain so. In my mind, that he's so public about how bad they are, speaks more about him than them. Whatever the case, I could be way wrong about any of it. I would say though, it seems incredibly stupid and heartless to make public family grievances like this.Which just indicates to me that you haven't listened to his podcast.He obviously loves his family. He came to see the church as a wedge which divided them. This surely isn't an uncommon story when one partner loses faith.
Abulafia Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Can you imagine "Church excommunicates man for trying to imprison leader of church?"Unless you can show me where, the only talk of imprisonment came from church lawyers and was aimed at Tom. The judge ( perhaps Sheilauk can weigh in on this) deferred. I'm not trying to defend Tom's use of the court. It made me feel uneasy and I have been in two minds about it all along. But it was his decision, and he must have felt justified in taking the steps he took.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Unless you can show me where, the only talk of imprisonment came from church lawyers and was aimed at Tom. The judge ( perhaps Sheilauk can weigh in on this) deferred.I'm not trying to defend Tom's use of the court. It made me feel uneasy and I have been in two minds about it all along. But it was his decision, and he must have felt justified in taking the steps he took.I'm not acquainted with law in the UK. Is not imprisonment a possible penalty for criminal fraud (assuming the case had gone forward)?
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Unless you can show me where, the only talk of imprisonment came from church lawyers and was aimed at Tom. The judge ( perhaps Sheilauk can weigh in on this) deferred.I'm not trying to defend Tom's use of the court. It made me feel uneasy and I have been in two minds about it all along. But it was his decision, and he must have felt justified in taking the steps he tookWhen you detest something or somebody it's easy to feel justified about going after them. No surprise there. What is in question is whether he is right to feel justified. Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Danzo Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Unless you can show me where, the only talk of imprisonment came from church lawyers and was aimed at Tom. The judge ( perhaps Sheilauk can weigh in on this) deferred.I'm not trying to defend Tom's use of the court. It made me feel uneasy and I have been in two minds about it all along. But it was his decision, and he must have felt justified in taking the steps he took. He brought a criminal charge against a person the penalty for being found guilty is imprisonment. Hence, tom was trying to send the prophet to prison. It wasn't a civil lawsuit, it wasn't against the church, it was a criminal indictment against a person, the church was not indicted. Edited March 24, 2014 by Danzo 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Which just indicates to me that you haven't listened to his podcast.He obviously loves his family. He came to see the church as a wedge which divided them. This surely isn't an uncommon story when one partner loses faith.It was he who changed, not they. When one family member apostatizes and the others remain faithful, it's inevitable that there will be a divide.
BlueDreams Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Reuben, do you know what annoys me about this. I've heard at least 3 accounts of Tom's life now from his *friends*, that purportedly knew him. All basically demonizing the man.Have you listened to his Mormon Stories interview with John Dehlin. If you want to know what he went through, from the horses mouth, then listen to him. I haven't listened to the interview and know very little about the guy, minus what I've read from time to time. So I don't have enough to dive deep into his overall character. But What I do know and study are systems. And I would be extremely loathe to discredit multiple accounts of people that knew him for his own account. The way he word things, makes most things look like his problems just happen to him....there's little acknowledgment of his own capacity to work things out for himself. The lawsuit for something most find at least bordering as ludicrous, to me points out that at the very least he's got quite a skewed perspective on things. Though the apostate narrative can be damaging to families (ie. they must have wanted to do a,b, or c, etc.), I very much doubt that that's the bulk of what's causing his problems with past relationships. He's made a series of decisions that definitely would alienate him from his LDS family/friends, publicly. As well as leaves him to pariah status for probably a good number of LDS as well (don't have the highest opinion of the dude from what I've seen). I doubt that his behavior on a more personal basis has helped much if this is just the stuff we get to see in public. After all, if this is his way of "trying to make the church more honest" then he's obviously got a problem with execution for betterment...that is beyond overkill. And personally, I wouldn't say Reuben's comments fit the definition for demonizing....they weren't all that awful. With luv,BD 4
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I haven't listened to the interview and know very little about the guy, minus what I've read from time to time. So I don't have enough to dive deep into his overall character. But What I do know and study are systems. And I would be extremely loathe to discredit multiple accounts of people that knew him for his own account. The way he word things, makes most things look like his problems just happen to him....there's little acknowledgment of his own capacity to work things out for himself. The lawsuit for something most find at least bordering as ludicrous, to me points out that at the very least he's got quite a skewed perspective on things. Though the apostate narrative can be damaging to families (ie. they must have wanted to do a,b, or c, etc.), I very much doubt that that's the bulk of what's causing his problems with past relationships. He's made a series of decisions that definitely would alienate him from his LDS family/friends, publicly. As well as leaves him to pariah status for probably a good number of LDS as well (don't have the highest opinion of the dude from what I've seen). I doubt that his behavior on a more personal basis has helped much if this is just the stuff we get to see in public. After all, if this is his way of "trying to make the church more honest" then he's obviously got a problem with execution for betterment...that is beyond overkill. And personally, I wouldn't say Reuben's comments fit the definition for demonizing....they weren't all that awful. With luv,BDVery well said -- except that it wasn't a lawsuit, it was a criminal prosecution brought by a private party under the laws of the UK.
stemelbow Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Which just indicates to me that you haven't listened to his podcast.He obviously loves his family. He came to see the church as a wedge which divided them. This surely isn't an uncommon story when one partner loses faith. I did not say he doesn't love his family. I do believe I listened to the podcast. Incidentally as I've tried to relocate it at Mormonstories I can't get it come up. There are always different perspectives. Its a shame he seems to be the impetus that has made this all public. Its a shame it's public at all. Edited March 24, 2014 by stemelbow 1
Abulafia Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) I've seen a link somewhere to it. http://.co.uk/2012/09/01/john-dehlin-interviews-tom-phillips/Please don't take my linking to Bobby's site as an indication that I support his methods. I don't. Edited March 24, 2014 by Nemesis Link to temple content removed
stemelbow Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) I've seen a link somewhere to it.http://.co.uk/2012/09/01/john-dehlin-interviews-tom-phillips/Please don't take my linking to Bobby's site as an indication that I support his methods. I don't.I do believe Dehlin took down or did not post the interview to Mormonstories because he knew it was something most LDS would not appreciate. Edited March 24, 2014 by Nemesis Link to temple content removed 1
Avatar4321 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Both the NT and D&C require excommunication. I think most leaders would rather not. I would also say that excommunication would be a mercy and the Church is in the business of providing mercy to others. I wish he would repent instead. Thankfully the decision on excommunication isnt up to me. 1
Avatar4321 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Unless you can show me where, the only talk of imprisonment came from church lawyers and was aimed at Tom. The judge ( perhaps Sheilauk can weigh in on this) deferred.I'm not trying to defend Tom's use of the court. It made me feel uneasy and I have been in two minds about it all along. But it was his decision, and he must have felt justified in taking the steps he took. Why would you bring criminal charges against someone if you aren't trying to imprison them?
Recommended Posts