Tom Phillips Case Thrown Out

[Sanpitch]

I'm saying that a council could have convened in his absence upon his refusal to appear and excommunicated him.

Did I get something wrong on Tom Phillips?  I think he has been anointed, or is it the second anointing and cannot be excommunicated.  Just picking that up from reading else where.

[Kenngo1969]

Is there a procedure for excommunication by fiat by the FP/Twelve? As in, is it theoretically possible to happen without calling for, inviting to, and convening a disciplinary council if it comes from the highest level? The question is, could he have been excommunicated without notice or ability to appeal?

They are referring to him as a former member. He insists he is still a member and has not been excommunicated, or summoned to a council. Which is accurate?

While religious truth claims are not justiciable, the actions of a church's leadership on behalf of the organization might be. Generally speaking, if a plaintiff can establish that (1) a church has in place a formal, regularly-utilized procedure for taking actions that affect the status of its members as members, and (2) this procedure was not followed in the (ex-)member's case, the plaintiff may have a justiciable claim.  Since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has such procedures in place, if they were not followed in a given case, anyone wishing to maintain a cause of action against the Church for not following those procedures might well have a case.  As such, I highly doubt that the Church would excommunicate someone without notice or would deny someone an opportunity to appeal.  (Having said that, if someone ignores his leaders' attempt to summon him to a council and/or ignores any notice he receives after the fact of the council's actions, as long as Church leaders follow established procedure in those cases, they're in the clear.)

Edited March 20, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[why me]

So you are in favor of all converts signing a disclosure list say they know everything.

 

Perhaps they can initial each point to be sure. 

 

This list would, of course, have to be reviewed by all critics to test for completeness.

 

Maybe we should have them take a test to see if they know everything (they should be able to quote from the smoot hearnings)

 

Maybe a list of required reading (brodie? tanner?)

 

Maybe they should be tested once a year just to make sure they remember everything?

 

Maybe they should have a degree in mormon studies?

What I have found in all my years on the internet is just how this history thing is spun. Mormons need to be experts in their history. Investigators should take a history course and be given an exam on it. And they should revise their knowledge every two years. Such is the stance of the critics. Quite amazing when a person considers just how much the average person know about anything.

[cdowis]

Did I get something wrong on Tom Phillips?  I think he has been anointed, or is it the second anointing and cannot be excommunicated.  Just picking that up from reading else where.

Look up in google, and you will find where he has made that claim.  In his story there is no indication that his membership has been formally terminated.

[cdowis]

Is this about Mormonism being false or about whether certain facts were not disclosed to Tom. My parent's were not told that blacks could not hold the priesthood, neither were they told about Joseph's practice of polygamy or polyandry. Would they have joined had they known these things? My mother tells me, no.

I admire those who join the church already knowing the complexity of it's history. These are the strong ones. It does no good to hide historical truths ( as far as they can be ascertained) from investigators.

The church will just end up with more disgruntled, unhappy members.

 

How unfortunate are those who are social Mormons and not received a divine witness of JS and the Book of Mormon before joining the church.  You might read the parable of the sower, or the different soils.

[canard78]

the Judge probably said, "Oi, you plucky chap, You shan't be doing this! Are you a lulu? has your lorry gone into the high street? now, get out of my court room you pillock and spend the rest of your days watching Only Fools and Horses like the rest of the old age pensioners in the UK" but for three pages

 

For the record: this is exactly how we speak in the UK

[Scott Lloyd]

Did I get something wrong on Tom Phillips?  I think he has been anointed, or is it the second anointing and cannot be excommunicated.  Just picking that up from reading else where.

I was vaguely aware of that claim as well, but I'm not familiar with the procedure in such instances.

 

I only know that at least two documents from the Church now have identified him as a former member.

[Abulafia]

What I have found in all my years on the internet is just how this history thing is spun. Mormons need to be experts in their history. Investigators should take a history course and be given an exam on it. And they should revise their knowledge every two years. Such is the stance of the critics. Quite amazing when a person considers just how much the average person know about anything.

It's a tricky one, but right now there are a lot of hurt people who feel that the church has withheld salient information from them. That's the reality of the situation. Blaming them for being ignorant fools perhaps isnt the best policy for resolving the situation, and surely we all want the situation resolved.

[Scott Lloyd]

Look up in google, and you will find where he has made that claim.  In his story there is no indication that his membership has been formally terminated.

I wondering if there may have been a recent development that has not been disclosed thus far, either by the Church or by Phillips.

[Danzo]

and surely we all want the situation resolved.

 

Is that what you really want?

[Scott Lloyd]

It's a tricky one, but right now there are a lot of hurt people who feel that the church has withheld salient information from them. That's the reality of the situation. Blaming them for being ignorant fools perhaps isnt the best policy for resolving the situation, and surely we all want the situation resolved.

If you look at the allegations by Phillips in court documents, you will see that they all pertain to matters of faith and belief that ordinary members of the Church would be expected to know about: Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, human family being descended from Adam and Eve, etc.

 

That is why I asked you for specifics about what you think was not disclosed to Tom Philips that should have been.

 

If you haven't yet done so, please examine the documents and identify which, if any, of the allegations involve matters that are typically hidden from ordinary Church members or investigators.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Abulafia]

How unfortunate are those who are social Mormons and not received a divine witness of JS and the Book of Mormon before joining the church.  You might read the parable of the sower, or the different soils.

Yes indeed, but a divine witness that this might be intuitively a good path for you does not necessarily mean that one must then become a blindly obedient automaton. The way of Jesus is open to all and was for all, the church however has a more restrictive and factional view of who is and isn't on good soil.

[USU78]

Interesting question:

 

My understanding is that he raised money from donors for his court costs. Since it was obvious from the beginning that this suit would be thrown out, could an argument be made that he has committed fraud against those who donated to his legal fund?

 

But he honestly and truly believed he was right and he would succeed . . . oh . . . yeah . . . never mind.

[Abulafia]

If you look at the allegations by Phillips in court documents, you will see that they all pertain to matters of faith and belief that ordinary members of the Church would be expected to know about: Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, human family being descended from Adam and Eve, etc.

 

That is why I asked you for specifics about what you think was not disclosed to Tom Philips that should have been.

 

If you haven't yet done so, please examine the documents and identify which, if any, of the allegations involve matters that are typically hidden from ordinary Church members or investigators.

I'm aware of the 7 points. They wouldn't be ones that I would have chosen. Which makes it tricky. They do/did come up in seminary though, and I was definitely taught as factual a good number of those points.

[USU78]

I am not satisified, nor am I dissatisfied.   I criticize the practice of anonymous posting, including anonymous posting with one's real name hauled out once in a while, but I don't criticize any individual poster for the practice unless they're coming after me.  I am not in their shoes to do so.   I will criticize a bulk practice, and I think it unfair to say mean things about Mr. Phillips anonymously.

 

I guess you don't hold truck with Silence DoGood or Richard Saunders or . . . the owner of those two pseudonyms.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm aware of the 7 points. They wouldn't be ones that I would have chosen. Which makes it tricky. They do/did come up in seminary though, and I was definitely taught as factual a good number of those points.

So your chiding of the Church about not being forthright in its disclosures is not really relevant to the specific allegations made by Phillips in his court filing then. Am I right?

[Calm]

If the church had given fuller disclosure on it's history I'm sure Tom and the other complainants wouldn't have felt defrauded.

How many of Phillip's alleged fraud points actually dealt with history of the Church?

 

add-on:  I see Scott has got there first.

Edited March 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Abulafia]

Is that what you really want?

You are mistaking me for someone who thought the court case was a good idea. I was and remain in two minds about the whole thing, but watched with interest.

[Calm]

So unless there was an abnormality in procedure, he likely is not technically a former member yet.

Maybe a letter ended up in the wrong place (no, I don't think that, just making random comments due to burnout on something else)

Edited March 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Danzo]

You are mistaking me for someone who thought the court case was a good idea. I was and remain in two minds about the whole thing, but watched with interest.

 

Seriously, as someone who feels they weren't told enough by the church, what do you think should be disclosed to investigators before baptism to avoid feeling hurt?

[Abulafia]

So your chiding of the Church about not being forthright in its disclosures is not really relevant to the specific allegations made by Phillips in his court filing then. Am I right?

Not necessarily relevent to investigator discussions but certainly relevent to the basic premise that the church taught me, which is that *we believe in being honest*.

I wasn't taught a correct history which did involve some of Tom's points. I learned from a fellow student at college, about the papyrus being discovered and it being a common funerary text, I learned of the complexity of the martyrdom event from my own private studies, as well as the nature of the claims in the Nauvoo Expositor and the reasoning behind William Law's printing it in the first place. I was taught the narrative that Tom outlines.

I was also taught the tight translation theory of the Book of Mormon. That Joseph used the plates to translate through the medium of the urim and thumim. Crazy as it sounds, I thought that the Book of Mormon was a literal translation of the symbols on the plates.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

Seriously, as someone who feels they weren't told enough by the church, what do you think should be disclosed to investigators before baptism to avoid feeling hurt?

I've already pointed out two things in my previous post. Joseph's polyandry and polygamy, and that blacks could not hold the priesthood. (My parents joined in 1970)

The missionaries turned up at our door within days of my grandmother's death, so my mother was vulnerable anyway. I've since learned that the Elders would check the obituary columns. I'm not sure she would have let them in at any other time. We lived next to a Mormon Church for the first seven years of my life, and it was always known as that strange American religion.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Abulafia

[Duncan]

For the record: this is exactly how we speak in the UK

 

 

where are you from in Great Britain?, if you don't mind me asking

[cdowis]

I've already pointed out two things in my previous post. Joseph's polyandry and polygamy, and that blacks could not hold the priesthood. (My parents joined in 1970)

 

 

OK, so they never had heard that Mormons, specifically Brigham Young, practiced polygamy.  Even in the 70' s that was common knowledge.

 

And blacks could not hold the priesthood?  I guess they had never read the Bible -- only the Levites could hold the priesthood, Christ and the early church did not minister to the gentiles until Peter received a vision and revelation.

 

They apparently never received a divine witness of the Book of Mormon, and that JS as a prophet.

 

And now they blame the church.  How sad.

Edited March 20, 2014 by cdowis

[guerreiro9]

I was also taught the tight translation theory of the Book of Mormon. That Joseph used the plates to translate through the medium of the urim and thumim. Crazy as it sounds, I thought that the Book of Mormon was a literal translation of the symbols on the plates.

The problem with all the points you made is who gets to decide the "truth". I believe that the translation of the Book of Mormon was tightly controlled. Does that mean this is the "truth"? I don't know, no one knows, the only claim made is that it was by the gift and power of God.

I think Joseph using the plates to translate through the medium of the urim and thummim is a good description of the translation process.

No translation is a literal translation, the choice of words is always subjective, but I think it would be accurate to describe the Book of Mormon as an English translation of the symbols on the plates.

-guerreiro9