For The Sisters- Immodesty And You Are The Bishop

[Scott Lloyd]

Poor Brigham Young wouldn't be allowed on his own campus... (or do you think they'd give him a beard card?)

This is not a new argument. It was fairly common back when I was a student there, so much so that it became trite. As I recall, President Oaks even referred to it in one of his talks -- and pretty much shot it down.

 

Edited to add:

 

Ah, with the miracle of Google, I was quickly able to find that address from President Oaks. Here is the relevant excerpt (notice he says he has grown weary of the argument, indicating that it had already become trite by then (1971)):

 

Beards and Long Hair

The rule against beards and long hair for men stands on a different footing. I am weary of having young people tell me how most of our Church leaders in earlier times wore beards and long hair, which shows that these are not inherently evil. Others argue that beards cannot be evil because they see bearded men enjoying the privileges of the temple. To me, this proposition seems so obvious that it is hardly worth mentioning. Unlike modesty, which is an eternal value in the sense of rightness or wrongness in the eyes of God, our rules against beards and long hair are contemporary and pragmatic. They are responsive to conditions and attitudes in our own society at this particular point in time. Historical precedents are worthless in this area. The rules are subject to change, and I would be surprised if they were not changed at some time in the future. But the rules are with us now, and it is therefore important to understand the reasoning behind them.

 

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[T-Shirt]

Please define "like purity".

 

Thanks in advance.

I don't understand the question.

[Scott Lloyd]

However sometimes we set up standards that are in excess of what the lord requires. (kind of like what the ancient Jews did during the time of Christ)

 

That's an easy way to rationalize ignoring any teaching that we don't like -- too easy, in fact. So, when the question comes up, we rely on and trust the Brethren to tell us what the Lord does require. That's their role.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Hello mfb...

Well, I'll give you some initial thoughts... I think if I were bishop, I'd make an appt with the girl and sit down with her for an honest and non-judgmental talk.  I'd point out what a fine young woman she is... and how I appreciate the strength of her testimony and her efforts to do things right... I'd explain that I was, therefore, surprised that she chose not to make a stronger commitment to live the modesty standards normally expected in the Church, particularly since she was planning on attending BYU.  I'd get out the questionnaire sent to me from BYU and share the portion with the question I was to answer as to whether she was now living the Honor Code... I would then explain the modesty standard expected at BYU under the Honor Code.  I would ask her if in her opinion her current standard met that requirement... and how best she thought I should answer that question honestly, particularly in view of the current way she chooses to dress.   I would explain that if I was to answer currently, that my answer would have to be that while she kept the Honor Code as to the Word of Wisdom and being an honest student, that I would not be able to give a positive answer in regard to dress/modesty standards.

I would ask her if there were not some steps we could take right now to solve this... etc etc., i.e., I would enlist her help as far as her making some changes right away so that I could be more positive in my response...  

 

GG

 

edit to add... the Honor Code at BYU was in place when I attended in 1959-60... it is in place now... and it applies to everyone, LDS and non-LDS alike.  If a person complains that it is too strict or that the Church shouldn't be able to dictate dress codes, they are always welcome to attend school elsewhere

Well stated, Garden Girl. I agree with what you've posted here.

 

And I say that as one who attended BYU through most of the '70s, who preferred to wear his hair long (but nevertheless complied with the BYU dress and grooming standards), and who resented it when older people put what I felt was too much emphasis on hair length on males. (To this day, I still hate haircuts.)

 

I will say here that with the matter of modesty, different considerations come to bear than with hair length, because immodesty is so closely related to and is often a precursor to sexual immorality, which is a serious sin.

 

Edited to add:

 

In the same Dallin H. Oaks talk I found to support my above post to Miserere Nobis, I found support for the point I'm making here as well. Here's a relevant excerpt:

 

Speaking of short skirts on the one hand and long hair and beards on the other, we should note that the reasons for these two requirements are different. Skirt lengths for women are a function of modesty. The ban on long hair and beards, on the other hand, is a question of symbolism and propriety. Let us examine these separately.

 

He then goes on to elaborate on the distinction, pretty much saying what I have restated here.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

OK now I will turn the tables here and ask the sisters here this one, and then I promise to sit back and shut up.

 

You sisters are now the Bishop.

 

You know that a young girl is applying for admission to BYU and soon will be required to follow the honor code which includes dressing modestly.

 

Her entire life as a young woman she has worn clothes which are too low, often sleeveless sometimes spaghetti-straps, and too short.

 

She could not wear garments with virtually ANY outfit she wears to church without exposing them- considerably.  She is a great young woman, has a great testimony and does everything right.

 

You are now called upon to answer a questionnaire on whether or not she is NOW living the standards of the BYU honor code.  If you say she is not, you could hurt her chances of getting into BYU. 

 

1-You have to say something to her to let her know what will be expected of her in terms of changing her behavior.

2-You also have to fill out the questionnaire

 

How do you handle it?  Please answer as if you are a man- not presuming that women can now be Bishops.  This is an actual problem I have faced in the past.

I know you're looking for responses from women on this, but If that is indeed a question that a bishop is required to answer, then the only responsible and fair thing for a bishop to do is to make sure young women in the ward are warned of this well in advance of their ever applying for admission to Church schools. It ought to be emphasized not just in interviews but in talks and lessons as well.

[mercyngrace]

I don't understand the question.

The perhaps you should read what was stated and then printed in this month's Ensign. 

 

P.S. I'm not "some" nor do I insist on beating strawmen. I'm "one" and I prefer to dance with them while singing along yellow brick roads...

Edited February 25, 2014 by mercyngrace

[Danzo]

That's an easy way to rationalize ignoring a teaching that we don't like -- too easy, in fact. So, when the question comes up we rely on and trust the Brethren to tell us what the Lord does require.

 

It does make it easy to rationalize. However, I don't think think we need to in this case.  The dress code standards at BYU or a church dance are not required by the lord. They are just required by those institutions, (which is fine.) If I understand them right (I didn't go to BYU) they are invented by some student committees.  Admission to BYU is not required to enter the celestial kingdom, nor is admission to a church dance required. 

 

I don't think anyone in the church thinks you less worthy if you didn't shave today.

[mfbukowski]

 

ETA: I'm not seeing how this relates back to the other modesty thread.

Thanks for your excellent reply.

The issue was how does a crusty old guy who tries hard to be a realist and be plain spoken, and who never worried about political correctness, who somehow gets called to be Bishop talk to an innocent young lady without causing the hullabaloo poor old Elder C. got himself into.

 

Looking for some training here.  So far only 3 sisters have replied, and all were GREAT answers and illuminating.

 

I will create an incentive here, - every sister gets a rep point as long as they last, just for responding! 

[mfbukowski]

Hello mfb...

Well, I'll give you some initial thoughts... I think if I were bishop, I'd make an appt with the girl and sit down with her for an honest and non-judgmental talk.  I'd point out what a fine young woman she is... and how I appreciate the strength of her testimony and her efforts to do things right... I'd explain that I was, therefore, surprised that she chose not to make a stronger commitment to live the modesty standards normally expected in the Church, particularly since she was planning on attending BYU.  I'd get out the questionnaire sent to me from BYU and share the portion with the question I was to answer as to whether she was now living the Honor Code... I would then explain the modesty standard expected at BYU under the Honor Code.  I would ask her if in her opinion her current standard met that requirement... and how best she thought I should answer that question honestly, particularly in view of the current way she chooses to dress.   I would explain that if I was to answer currently, that my answer would have to be that while she kept the Honor Code as to the Word of Wisdom and being an honest student, that I would not be able to give a positive answer in regard to dress/modesty standards.

I would ask her if there were not some steps we could take right now to solve this... etc etc., i.e., I would enlist her help as far as her making some changes right away so that I could be more positive in my response...  

 

GG

 

edit to add... the Honor Code at BYU was in place when I attended in 1959-60... it is in place now... and it applies to everyone, LDS and non-LDS alike.  If a person complains that it is too strict or that the Church shouldn't be able to dictate dress codes, they are always welcome to attend school elsewhere

[mercyngrace]

Thanks for your excellent reply.

The issue was how does a crusty old guy who tries hard to be a realist and be plain spoken, and who never worried about political correctness, who somehow gets called to be Bishop talk to an innocent young lady without causing the hullabaloo poor old Elder C. got himself into.

 

Looking for some training here.  So far only 3 sisters have replied, and all were GREAT answers and illuminating.

 

I will create an incentive here, - every sister gets a rep point as long as they last, just for responding! 

Mark,

 

Somehow, I think you do just fine I know you are a softie in spite of how you like to play it on this message board from time to time. 

 

And you know I love ya!

 

Cate

[Scott Lloyd]

It does make it easy to rationalize. However, I don't think think we need to in this case.  The dress code standards at BYU or a church dance are not required by the lord. They are just required by those institutions, (which is fine.) If I understand them right (I didn't go to BYU) they are invented by some student committees.  Admission to BYU is not required to enter the celestial kingdom, nor is admission to a church dance required. 

 

I don't think anyone in the church thinks you less worthy if you didn't shave today.

However, it is the Brethren who serve as the trustees for "those institutions." It is they who set the dress and grooming standards. And while shaving may not be a requirement for entrance to the Celestial Kingdom, obedience and compliance in this specific venue (enrollment at Church schools) may very well have a bearing on it.

[mfbukowski]

Mark,

 

Somehow, I think you do just fine I know you are a softie in spite of how you like to play it on this message board from time to time. 

 

And you know I love ya!

 

Cate

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks for your excellent reply.

The issue was how does a crusty old guy who tries hard to be a realist and be plain spoken, and who never worried about political correctness, who somehow gets called to be Bishop talk to an innocent young lady without causing the hullabaloo poor old Elder C. got himself into.

 

Looking for some training here.  So far only 3 sisters have replied, and all were GREAT answers and illuminating.

 

I will create an incentive here, - every sister gets a rep point as long as they last, just for responding! 

What about me? I thought I gave a good one too. (mercyngrace even gave me a rep point for it.)

 

Is this a case of reverse discrimination?

[Scott Lloyd]

Anyone else remember when we weren't allowed to wear shorts, not even the knee length ones? Or is that still the case?

I recall a joke that was going around campus clear back in the mid-sixties, when my brother attended. It went like this:

 

There's a proposal to allow students to wear knee-length denims. But a group is sponsoring a petition to oppose this. They call themselves the Anti-Knee-high Levi's.

[mercyngrace]

I recall a joke that was going around campus clear back in the mid-sixties, when my brother attended. It went like this:

 

There's a proposal to allow students to wear knee-length denims. But a group is sponsoring a petition to oppose this. They call themselves the Anti-Knee-high Levi's.

 

That joke was still going strong during my days at the Y in the late 80s, early 90s. 

[Calm]

I agree with the other suggestions, with the bishop choosing specifics depending on the level of the relationship with the girl.

The girls should have been made aware of the honour code at BYU prior to the interview. I can see that being able to be taught in lessons that dealt in part with preparation for college or other choices in one's future. If the bishop does not have a secure enough relationship to have a discussion about modesty or it is likely the girl is sensitive about criticism, then I would suggest having one of the young woman's leaders have that part of the discussion with her...if possible at least a month in advance so she can suggest the young woman work on changing her wardrobe until the time of the interview if she is interested in attending BYU and she can offer to help her, including if there are financial issues.

That way if there is awkwardness with the bishop, he can approach it very practically as simply meeting or not the requirements of attending BYU and avoid any judgments that might come across to the young woman as commenting on her sexuality.

As to long hair on men, not a common topic at church for obvious reasons but in other contexts conversations I have had with women and girls (back to my high school days) as well as my own opinion would seem to indicate to me that once a man's hair gets past a certain point it has become a sexual statement much like the exposure of rather fit stomach and chest muscles, tight pants and tshirts, etc. So if modesty is about teaching how to help others avoid inappropriate sexual thoughts, than long hair on guys should be included in the category IMO.

Edited February 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

As to long hair on men, not a common topic at church for obvious reasons but in other contexts conversations I have had with women and girls (back to my high school days) as well as my own opinion would seem to indicate to me that once a man's hair gets past a certain point it has become a sexual statement much like the exposure of rather fit stomach and chest muscles, tight pants and tshirts, etc. So if modesty is about teaching how to help others avoid inappropriate sexual thoughts, than long hair on guys should be included in the category IMO.

An interesting perspective, one I have never heard until now.

 

It does clash a bit with what I said earlier and with what Elder Oaks has said (at least back in 1971).

 

But then it's safe to say neither of us has ever viewed this from a female perspective.

 

Edited to add:

 

From this, can I conclude I was sexier when I grew my hair out? 

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

But then it's safe to say neither of us has ever viewed this from a female perspective.

I think that's the whole problem- we don't fully KNOW the female perspective. I have never been a teenage girl and when I was that age found them totally mysterious. Now with three daughters now adults, I can see it, but I would have said things like that to them without a blink of an eye from any of them. I guess it is expected that Dads will say that, but if it comes from a GA, it is a whole different ball game.

This is not exactly stuff they teach in school, or in church or anywhere else that I know of- "How to Be a Sensitive Male Dealing with Issues You Don't Comprehend, 101."

Poor Elder C just blundered right into it, not even comprehending the degree of sensitivity required here, as many of us guys with good intentions might have done. And I am sure Bishops across the church are in the same boat.

[mfbukowski]

Oh and I gave you a point for a good joke, not because you begged for it. 

[Calm]

 

From this, can I conclude I was sexier when I grew my hair out? 

Well, many women would likely conclude you were trying to be at the very least.

[mfbukowski]

So if modesty is about teaching how to help others avoid inappropriate sexual thoughts, than long hair on guys should be included in the category IMO.

So you are saying that women find long haired guys sexy?  I guess that's the Fabio thing?

 

See, I really AM dumb about this stuff I guess....  

[Calm]

Just google "hot guys with long hair" and read some of the comments from women if you feel the need for an education...though beware as well.

And yes it is the Fabio thing...but for me any physical attractiveness is outweighed by the selfconsciousness of the man, over all not something I appreciate.

But the length of hair becoming sexual does vary from woman to woman. Some I've known don't have to have it very long. It is much like clothing for some, anything outside the standard no matter how small a 'violation' is considered flaunting it.

Edited February 26, 2014 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

Oh and I gave you a point for a good joke, not because you begged for it. 

I'll take what I can get.

[T-Shirt]

The perhaps you should read what was stated and then printed in this month's Ensign. 

 

P.S. I'm not "some" nor do I insist on beating strawmen. I'm "one" and I prefer to dance with them while singing along yellow brick roads...

Sorry, I still don't understand the question.  By the way, I have read the article.  You and others on this board continue to claim Elder Calister said something he didn't.  If you don't like what he said, you should, at least, disagree with what he actually said and not some propped up strawman.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, many women would likely conclude you were trying to be at the very least.

Kind of makes me want to talk to some of my high school classmates to see what they were thinking.

 

On second thought, I'm probably better off not knowing.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Scott Lloyd