For Those Who Have Left...

[Mustard]

If you have either left the church or have become decidedly a non-believer of the LDS church, how do you explain any past miracles or spiritual feelings. 

 

My question is just to see if you had past spiritual experience in the church and left, how do you explain these experiences? 

 

I am very curious to hear any honest replies,

 

Thanks.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Mustard

[Thinking]

If you are truly on the fence and are asking these questions, I predict a short life for this thread. The board guidelines don't allow "why I left the church" threads and this one is very close to that.

[Mustard]

I further edited the thread so that the question gets more attention then any intent:

 

If you left, how do you explain past spiritual experience within the church?

 

Thanks.

[mfbukowski]

A typical answer would probably be that it was all "just emotion".

 

That is typically the way I see antis attack spiritual experience.

[why me]

A typical answer would probably be that it was all "just emotion".

 

That is typically the way I see antis attack spiritual experience.

Or they claim that it was just a warm fuzzy. Whatever it is they claim, it is usually a denial that it was the Holy Ghost.

[why me]

If you have either left the church or have become decidedly a non-believer of the LDS church, how do you explain any past miracles or spiritual feelings. 

 

My question is just to see if you had past spiritual experience in the church and left, how do you explain these experiences? 

 

I am very curious to hear any honest replies,

 

Thanks.

Exmembers usually claim that their experience is not different from any other religious experience that members of other faiths have had. So, they tend to lump their experience together with the experiences that others claimed that they have had as catholics, protestants, hindi, muslim etc. to dilute their own spiritual experience away from the holy ghost. The exmember needs to rationalize their experience away to have peace of mind about the spiritual experiences they had in the lds church.

Edited February 18, 2014 by why me

[Brian 2.0]

I haven't left the church, but I would consider myself a non-believer I guess.  

 

As for the experiences I had, I do not deny that they happened.  I just now don't automatically connect that those experiences meant exactly what was being told to me that they meant.  I know when I served my mission a big part of our teaching was helping people "identify the spirit."  Sometimes during discussions we would say something like this, "Do you feel something different right now?  Do you feel peace and calm?  A feeling of joy and happiness?  That's the Holy Ghost telling you these things are true." 

 

I no longer believe that the last sentence I underlined follows so easily.  

 

Exmembers usually claim that there experience is not different from any other religious experience that members of other faiths have had. So, they tend to lump their experience together with the experiences that others claimed that they have had as catholics, protestants, hindi, muslim etc. to dilute their own spiritual experience away from the holy ghost. 

 

I know whyme meant that in a negative way, but I believe what he said to some degree.

 

EDIT:  I should also add that I never had any miraculous revelation or anything (I never heard voices or saw beings or anything like that).  It was more feelings of peace or perspective or joy or comfort.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[why me]

I haven't left the church, but I would consider myself a non-believer I guess.  

 

As for the experiences I had, I do not deny that they happened.  I just now don't automatically connect that those experiences meant exactly what was being told to me that they meant.  I know when I served my mission a big part of our teaching was helping people "identify the spirit."  Sometimes during discussions we would say something like this, "Do you feel something different right now?  Do you feel peace and calm?  A feeling of joy and happiness?  That's the Holy Ghost telling you these things are true." 

 

I no longer believe that the last sentence I underlined follows so easily.  

 

 

I know whyme meant that in a negative way, but I believe what he said to some degree.

 

 

I didn't mean it in a negative way at all. I was just going by what many exmembers have said about it. I see it as a way of rationalizing one's way out of a difficult situation: how to regulate spiritual experiences to a happening of the mind, a sort of pathos.

[Palerider]

The responses from "whyme" and "Bukowski" are fairly narrow and shallow unfortunately.

 

My question to help answer your question would be: If Mormons have the true church, how do they explain the miracles and spiritual experineces that occur in churches that supposedly have less truth than they do? 

 

The general response as we taught it in the mission field was that the Lord didn't restrict spiritual experiences or miracles from those who sincerley seek Christ even if they weren't in the "right" church.

 

The problem is that Mormons are incapable of taking this same principle and applying it to themselves to realize that the Lord might give THEM answers to their prayers, spiritual experiences and miracles, to bring them closer to Him even if THEY are the ones who aren't in the true church.  

[Brian 2.0]

I didn't mean it in a negative way at all. I was just going by what many exmembers have said about it. I see it as a way of rationalizing one's way out of a difficult situation: how to regulate spiritual experiences to a happening of the mind, a sort of pathos.

 

Sorry to misread you.  I agree this is a common response by exmembers from my experience as well.  In the end. an experience happened, period, and to deny it would be odd.  And other members of other religions have experiences, period, and to deny those would be odd as well.  Whether or not those experiences came from an external spiritual source is the point of debate I guess.  And what exactly those experiences even mean is another point of discussion.  

Edited February 18, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[Thinking]

I know when I served my mission a big part of our teaching was helping people "identify the spirit."  Sometimes during discussions we would say something like this, "Do you feel something different right now?  Do you feel peace and calm?  A feeling of joy and happiness?  That's the Holy Ghost telling you these things are true." 

 

I no longer believe that the last sentence I underlined follows so easily.

 

I wrote a similar post recently in another thread.

 

When I was a missionary, I was taught to recognize when the investigator was feeling something, then identify it as the spirit testifying that what we were teaching was true. I don't know if missionaries are taught the same tactic today. I now believe that I was manipulating an emotional response into a spiritual experience.

 

My parents believe very strongly that the LDS Church is God's Church and raised my siblings and me to believe the same. There were some very powerful emotional experiences which at the time I interpreted as being the spirit testifying to me that the LDS Church was true. I still remember the seminary activity that involved the students dying in a plane crash and being led to the spirit world (the chapel) where waiting for us were our parents all dressed in white. Wow, that was emotional! Eventually I began to notice that whatever happened was somehow a testimony of the LDS Church. If Brother X was in the hospital an received a priesthood blessing but died anyway, it was because the Lord wanted him to do missionary work on the other side. If Sister Y received a priesthood blessing and lived, it was a testimony of the miraculous healing power of the priesthood, or her work here on earth was not finished. If I prayed for something and received it, I was being blessed. If I didn't receive it, it was a trial. The one thing that caused me to be hesitant in reinterpreting these emotional responses was the fear of sinning against the Holy Ghost. If somehow the LDS Church is God's Church and I used to believe it, but change my mind, would I become a son of Perdition? I no longer worry about that.

[why me]

The responses from "whyme" and "Bukowski" are fairly narrow and shallow unfortunately.

 

My question to help answer your question would be: If Mormons have the true church, how do they explain the miracles and spiritual experineces that occur in churches that supposedly have less truth than they do? 

I commented on this in post 6. This is another way of rationalizing. My experience was meaningless because people of other faiths also claim spiritual experience. Thus, how can I trust my experience to be a true experience. This is quite a new tactic by critics and exmembers to have members doubt their spiritual experience.

 

I can't speak for other people and their experiences...I can only know my own experiences and what they were and how they influenced my own belief process especially when I received an answer that the church was true.

[why me]

I wrote a similar post recently in another thread.

 

 

My parents believe very strongly that the LDS Church is God's Church and raised my siblings and me to believe the same. There were some very powerful emotional experiences which at the time I interpreted as being the spirit testifying to me that the LDS Church was true.

Why were they emotional experiences and not spiritual experiences? Is this a way to downplay such experiences to the emotional by negating the spiritual?

[3DOP]

The responses from "whyme" and "Bukowski" are fairly narrow and shallow unfortunately.

 

My question to help answer your question would be: If Mormons have the true church, how do they explain the miracles and spiritual experineces that occur in churches that supposedly have less truth than they do? 

 

The general response as we taught it in the mission field was that the Lord didn't restrict spiritual experiences or miracles from those who sincerley seek Christ even if they weren't in the "right" church.

 

The problem is that Mormons are incapable of taking this same principle and applying it to themselves to realize that the Lord might give THEM answers to their prayers, spiritual experiences and miracles, to bring them closer to Him even if THEY are the ones who aren't in the true church.  

 

For the record, I was not giving a point for criticism of other posts, but the idea, new to me, that to be consistent to the position LDS often take with prayers, spiritual experiences, and miracles in other churches, then none of these are helpful in identifying the one true church.

[jkwilliams]

I don't rationalize them away. Perhaps those spiritual experiences were things I needed at the time; maybe they helped me navigate that part of my life better. Who knows?

 

Later experiences trump those earlier ones for me.

[Senator]

 

I can't speak for other people and their experiences...

 

Then why are you?

[Senator]

Sorry to misread you.   

 

Whyme is an ex-mo expert. That's why he is here answering a question that wasn't directed to him.

[Five Solas]

The Bible talks repeatedly about counterfeit signs and wonders (e.g., Matthew 24:24, 2 Thessalonians 2:9) and tells us not to believe every spirit (1 John 4:1).  So just because someone has a real spiritual experience...

 

--Erik

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I have not left. In fact I am fully active, pay tithing, hold two callings and consider myself completely orthoprax (though my home teaching is only 75%). I am however a heretic, I reject polygamy, am agnostic about the historicity of the Book of Mormon.  I think most of the stories in the Pentateuch are figurative, and that many if not most of the New and Old Testament writings are pseudepigraphal. 

 

Like Thinking, I began to notice that everything (positive or negative) was interpreted as a testimony of the church's truthfulness. I noted that my spiritual experiences weren't limited to things related to the church. I also began to notice the lack of the spirit as I considered some church teachings. As my views evolved, I interpreted my spiritual experiences more narrowly. A positive spiritual experience while reading the Book of Mormon, no longer meant that the church was "true", but meant that that story I was reading was "true" and had meaning for me. Similarly a positive spiritual experience while listening to Martin Luther King didn't mean that I had to accept his personal life choices, but that his message was "true" and had meaning for me.

 

I have since adopted an Alma 32 method in my faith. I apply principles in my life. Those that bear good fruit for me and those I love, I accept. Those that do not I reject. This has been quite liberating and scary as I am now responsible for my behavior, and I must decide what is right and what is wrong. At this point in my life, the church is still right for me, though at some point in the future it may not be.

 

I will add that I have never experienced a life changing spiritual epiphany (thinking day of pentacost, or Alma the Younger type experience), and despite years of prayers never had an individual conversion event that I interpreted to mean that this was the Lord's one true church. Perhaps my views would be different if I had.

Edited February 18, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[ALarson]

I went through years of inactivity when I first learned about and struggled with discovering things about the church that I had not been previously taught.  I am back now, but my beliefs have changed.

 

I think it's important to realize that spiritual and religion are not the same thing.  Many, many people are extremely spiritual who are not a member of any organized religion.  Many have a very spiritual, close relationship with their God but never physically attend church.

 

Spiritual experiences are not exclusive to Mormon church members.  Once someone leaves or goes inactive, these spiritual experiences do not stop if that person is still sincerely seeking them out and living a moral life.

 

So, one has to ask themselves if the spiritual experiences occurred only because they are a Mormon?

[Senator]

I have not left. In fact I am fully active, pay tithing, hold two callings and consider myself completely orthoprax (though my home teaching is only 75%). I am however a heretic, I reject polygamy, am agnostic about the historicity of the Book of Mormon.  I think most of the stories in the Pentateuch are figurative, and that many if not most of the New and Old Testament writings are pseudepigraphal. 

 

Like Thinking, I began to notice that everything (positive or negative) was interpreted as a testimony of the church's truthfulness. I noted that my spiritual experiences weren't limited to things related to the church. I also began to notice the lack of the spirit as I considered some church teachings. As my views evolved, I interpreted my spiritual experiences more narrowly. A positive spiritual experience while reading the Book of Mormon, no longer meant that the church was "true", but meant that that story I was reading was "true" and had meaning for me. Similarly a positive spiritual experience while listening to Martin Luther King didn't mean that I had to accept his personal life choices, but that his message was "true" and had meaning for me.

 

I have since adopted an Alma 32 method in my faith. I apply principles in my life. Those that bear good fruit for me and those I love, I accept. Those that do not I reject. This has been quite liberating and scary as I am now responsible for my behavior, and I must decide what is right and what is wrong. At this point in my life, the church is still right for me, though at some point in the future it may not be.

 

I will add that I have never experienced a life changing spiritual epiphany (thinking day of pentacost, or Alma the Younger type experience), and despite years of prayers never had an individual conversion event that I interpreted to mean that this was the Lord's one true church. Perhaps my views would be different if I had.

Wow SU. 

 

With the change of about 4 words, I could put my autograph underneath and call it mine.

 

Well said.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Wow SU. 

 

With the change of about 4 words, I could put my autograph underneath and call it mine.

 

Well said.

Good to know I'm not alone here.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

So much of this relies on how we choose to interpret the what happens to us. Different people respond and interpret the same events in many ways. Consider the Chinese parable:

 

Once upon the time there was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. “Such bad luck,” they said sympathetically.

 

“Maybe,” the farmer replied.

 

The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. “How wonderful,” the neighbors exclaimed.

 

“Maybe,” replied the old man.

 

The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

 

“Maybe,” answered the farmer.

 

The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son’s leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

 

“Maybe,” said the farmer.

[jkwilliams]

It's bad form to judge other people's spiritual experiences and how they interpret them, in my view. I am not someone else, and I don't have any insight into how their brains or spirits operate. Unless someone else has that gift, it kind of sucks to criticize people for "rationalizing" their own experience.

[why me]

The lds church is unique. In the book of mormon there is a promise that if one prays about the book's truthfulness, an answer will be given. This is an unique claim to make for any book. If Joseph wrote this book it would take absolute gall for him to write such a claim in a novel. And he would have known that people would get a blank if they prayed about it.

 

However, if the book was written by ancient prophets with such a claim, and people prayed about the book and countless people have received countless witnesses about its truthfulness and received spiritual experiences about it, it tells much about the book. And this is what makes the lds church rather unique.