For Those Who Have Left...

[bcuzbcuz]

This could be true. However, either the book of mormon is what it claims to be or it isn't. In the book of mormon there is a promise. When a spiritual experience is given based on that promise it says a lot about the truth claims of the lds church. Let me put it this way: if people did not have a spiritual experience when praying about the book of mormon the church would be a dead church. But countless millions have had such an experience.

Countless millions? I would think the millions can be counted rather accurately. A discussion site may not be the best place for hyperbole.

Countless millions on other sites, talking about their religious experiences in faiths, other than Mormon, talk about spiritual experiences from God. Any idea how to sort and separate and arrange to explain such contradictory experiences?

Edited February 18, 2014 by bcuzbcuz

[why me]

To some, maybe many.

 

From my personal experience, I feel the "spiritual experience" mantra in the church to be over hyped.

I don't think that this is true. If one looks at the spiritual experience as recorded by eliza snow or lorenzo snow one would think otherwise. Not to mention the spiritual experiences of the people who heard Joseph Smith preach. Many early saints have recorded their experiences in their journals. The lds church is a spiritual experience church.

[Senator]

I don't think that this is true. If one looks at the spiritual experience as recorded by eliza snow or lorenzo snow one would think otherwise. Not to mention the spiritual experiences of the people who heard Joseph Smith preach. Many early saints have recorded their experiences in their journals. The lds church is a spiritual experience church.

 

Did I say, "according to Eliza Snow or Lorenzo Snow's spiritual experiences, the spiritual experience mantra in the church is over-hyped"?

 

No! I said according to my experience.

 

Do you see the difference?

[Anteojito]

My spiritual experiences were all I had left for a very long time. To this day, I am not really sure what they mean, whether it is confirmation bias, some sort of higher being guiding me along or what.

 

I have met many people of other religions that stated that they have had spiritual experiences confirming to them that their beliefs were true and from god. Are their experiences of less value than those of a Later Day Saint? Why would God make spiritual confirmations and emotional experiences so similar? 

 

I will say that when I finally made the decision to leave the church, I had a moment of clarity and peace that was stronger than anything I had felt during my my many years as a TBM. Was that of the devil? Was is of God telling my that I no longer needed the LDS church? Or was it just me being relieved that I finally made a decision? 

[omni]

I recently had one of the strongest if not the strongest spiritual experiences of my life...while watching a Hollywood film.  I am not an emotional person and almost never cry, but during a particular moment I started to bawl and my entire body filled with a warm and exhilarating euphoria.  This was not a sad moment in the film and I wasn't able to identify some overarching theme of eternal goodness, in fact I've heard many people describe the film as having a secular agenda.  Was this the Spirit or was it a natural reaction my body had to a film I really enjoyed?

 

Compare this experience to what happened during my faith crisis a couple of years ago.  As I could feel my shelf being overloaded and my testimony slipping away I pled with God to let me know if it was all true.  God promises us in Moroni that he will answer our prayers if we but ask him with a sincere heart and with real intent.  I did exactly as the scripture states and I tested that promise dozens, perhaps hundreds of times during this period, but not once did I receive an answer.  Not while on my knees in prayer, not while reading the scriptures, and not while attending church or the temple.  However, put on a good Disney movie or well-produced clip of an Olympic athlete overcoming adversity and bam!..there's a pretty good chance I'll feel the spirit.

 

This is not to say that God can't or doesn't use spiritual experiences to guide or bless people in their lives, only that I find this method of truth wholly unreliable.

Edited February 18, 2014 by omni

[Avatar4321]

For those who left: Come back. We miss you

[jkwilliams]

 

I will say that when I finally made the decision to leave the church, I had a moment of clarity and peace that was stronger than anything I had felt during my my many years as a TBM. Was that of the devil? Was is of God telling my that I no longer needed the LDS church? Or was it just me being relieved that I finally made a decision? 

 

Same here. I'm not sure about my experience, either, but as you say, it was a big relief and a huge weight off my shoulders. Of course, life got much more difficult after that, but at least I had peace about what I'd decided.

[3DOP]

I'd like you to expand on this a little.

 

Palerider. Hey.

 

You made a great observation. I was hurrying to write my post before work. If I wasn't clear, I intended to affirm the idea, which I had not considered before, that if one takes the position that God gives miracles and signs and wonders in all of the churches, none in any of the churches, including LDS, should think that these are the way God indicates where to make one's church affiliation.

 

I seldom start threads. One or two a year maybe. I recently started a thread on miracles. It was in November. There are claims by Catholics of miracles that make the believer in the miracle affirm distinctively Catholic doctrine. I had expected this to force the issue of saying that the miracles were either deceptions or even false signs "from the dark side". However, the most common response was that such miracles are pretty much everywhere. I had expected to defend and talk about miracles that were often verified by many witnesses. These weren't just healings or for good feelings that might appeal to anybody. They are doctrinally affirmative in favor of the Catholic faith. It seems hard to me to believe that the audible "voice" that spoke to Thomas Aquinas from the tabernacle, overheard by his companion, affirming that the hymns and prayers that that he had recently composed for the Church's liturgy could be from God if the doctrine Aquinas taught is false. I could find the "earwitness" account, but I paraphrase:

 

Thomas: Have I written correctly Lord, concerning your doctrine of the Eucharist?

Voice from the Tabernacle: You have spoken well my son.

 

Here was an honest inquiry from a man known to be humble and willing to be corrected, and God is so eager to keep people in every religion that He answers Thomas' question falsely? I can't believe in that. I could believe it was just a lie made up by St. Thomas' companion. I could believe it was the devil speaking. I do believe it was God speaking. I see reasonableness in all three of those positions. But I can't believe God gives all these religions similar miracles which result in keeping them scattered and divided from each other. Your observation, Palerider, shows the consistent position those need to take who hold that all religions get these kinds of miracles and experiences affirming all faiths. Miracles and interior locutions/experiences mean nothing to any of us if that is the case.

 

It appears to me that most seem to think that what happened to Thomas and these public miracles with multiple witnesses like the 80,000 at Fatima (20th and 21st Century prophecies about the Catholic Church) and Lourdes (confirming the Immaculate Conception) is common and happens everywhere. In the thread it was mentioned that Hindus and Buddhists and everybody else gets the same kind of confirmation of their own religion. I guess this is because because God is leading us where we want to go and He isn't very particular about where that is? I found it slightly frustrating at the time. Modern medicine was even cited as a miracle. I realized at that point  that we didn't even agree on the difference between scientific advancement and the interruption of nature by a supernatural power. I decided to just let it go. It seemed like I couldn't make myself understood. I think you touched on something this morning about this belief in universal miracles that I could have used at the time.

 

Rory

 

Here is the thread if anyone would be interested in revisiting it:

   

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62190-of-miracles-anti-miracles-and-what-they-might-mean/

 

PS: A disclaimer. Upon closer review, this particular thread does not appear to substantiate as thoroughly as I had hoped, my recollections of gaining the impression that it is common among LDS to believe that all faiths have equally verifiable and persuasive miracles and spiritual experiences. If necessary I'll do some more poking around. In any case, for those who hold that view (miracles for everyone), Palerider's argument would correctly invalidate all such evidence as a sign for the veracity of any particular religion. 

Edited February 18, 2014 by 3DOP

[Johnnie Cake]

 

For those who left: Come back. We miss you

 

For those still in...jump in the waters fine...

[boblloyd91]

Palerider. Hey.

 

You made a great observation. I was hurrying to write my post before work. If I wasn't clear, I intended to affirm the idea, which I had not considered before, that if one takes the position that God gives miracles and signs and wonders in all of the churches, none in any of the churches, including LDS, should think that these are the way God indicates where to make one's church affiliation.

 

I seldom start threads. One or two a year maybe. I recently started a thread on miracles. It was in November. There are claims by Catholics of miracles that make the believer in the miracle affirm distinctively Catholic doctrine. I had expected this to force the issue of saying that the miracles were either deceptions or even false signs "from the dark side". However, the most common response was that such miracles are pretty much everywhere. I had expected to defend and talk about miracles that were often verified by many witnesses. These weren't just healings or for good feelings that might appeal to anybody. They are doctrinally affirmative in favor of the Catholic faith. It seems hard to me to believe that the audible "voice" that spoke to Thomas Aquinas from the tabernacle, overheard by his companion, affirming that the hymns and prayers that that he had recently composed for the Church's liturgy could be from God if the doctrine Aquinas taught is false. I could find the "earwitness" account, but I paraphrase:

 

Thomas: Have I written correctly Lord, concerning your doctrine of the Eucharist?

Voice from the Tabernacle: You have spoken well my son.

 

Here was an honest inquiry from a man known to be humble and willing to be corrected, and God is so eager to keep people in every religion that He answers Thomas' question falsely? I can't believe in that. I could believe it was just a lie made up by St. Thomas' companion. I could believe it was the devil speaking. I do believe it was God speaking. I see reasonableness in all three of those positions. But I can't believe God gives all these religions similar miracles which result in keeping them scattered and divided from each other. Your observation, Palerider, shows the consistent position those need to take who hold that all religions get these kinds of miracles and experiences affirming all faiths. Miracles and interior locutions/experiences mean nothing to any of us if that is the case.

 

It appears to me that most seem to think that what happened to Thomas and these public miracles with multiple witnesses like the 80,000 at Fatima (20th and 21st Century prophecies about the Catholic Church) and Lourdes (confirming the Immaculate Conception) is common and happens everywhere. In the thread it was mentioned that Hindus and Buddhists and everybody else gets the same kind of confirmation of their own religion. I guess this is because because God is leading us where we want to go and He isn't very particular about where that is? I found it slightly frustrating at the time. Modern medicine was even cited as a miracle. I realized at that point  that we didn't even agree on the difference between scientific advancement and the interruption of nature by a supernatural power. I decided to just let it go. It seemed like I couldn't make myself understood. I think you touched on something this morning about this belief in universal miracles that I could have used at the time.

 

Rory

 

Here is the thread if anyone would be interested in revisiting it:

   

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62190-of-miracles-anti-miracles-and-what-they-might-mean/

 

PS: A disclaimer. Upon closer review, this particular thread does not appear to substantiate as thoroughly as I had hoped, my recollections of gaining the impression that it is common among LDS to believe that all faiths have equally verifiable and persuasive miracles and spiritual experiences. If necessary I'll do some more poking around. In any case, for those who hold that view (miracles for everyone), Palerider's argument would correctly invalidate all such evidence as a sign for the veracity of any particular religion. 

 

 

For me this is the greatest riddle that has caused me no end of speculation, concern, doubt fear, faith and hope. Why do sincere people get led in so many different directions.....of course the easy answer is the devil, but yet the question I still am wondering is at what point does God let a sincere person be deceived by the Devil. Taking Rory's example of Thomas Aquinas, he sincerely wanted to do what was right. I know people on my mission who right as they finished praying for help were visited by the missionaries. Was Luther deceived? were the children at Fatima deceived? was Joseph Smith deceived? what about Wesley, Calvin or Knox? I believe in God and the Devil, but sometimes when I look at the immensity of variety in spiritual experiences, I almost feel myself drifting towards agnosticism. Five Solas talked about the danger of false miracles and signs etc. I agree with this, yet at some point I start to wonder how hard it is to know God, how much does he want to save use (or conversely how much does he want to condemn us?) I have read accounts of people who claim that God revealed to them that Mormonism (or Catholicism, Pentecostalism etc.) is of the Devil, whereas others who read the same materials, attend the same services, say their prayers etc. get completely different results. Case in point: Cora Evans is a former LDS woman who left the Church and later became Catholic, where she had visions stigmata etc. Then there is David John, an early convert to the Church who was debating joining Mormonism when he had a dream encouraging him to do so. He followed John's admonition to "test the spirits" and prayed to know if the dream was from God, and if not to shut up the vision. Well he got the same dream and joined the Church. Even on this board we have individuals like Rod Headlee who is very open about the spiritual experiences that led him to the Church (which were a direct answer to prayer) or Palerider and 5 Solas who have went the opposite way with their spiritual experiences to a more Evangelical worldview.

 

I get confused and discouraged with all this and hope God will eventually let me and my family know that he loves them and doesn't want to hurt them    

Edited February 19, 2014 by boblloyd91

[flameburns623]

The responses from "whyme" and "Bukowski" are fairly narrow and shallow unfortunately. My question to help answer your question would be: If Mormons have the true church, how do they explain the miracles and spiritual experineces that occur in churches that supposedly have less truth than they do?  The general response as we taught it in the mission field was that the Lord didn't restrict spiritual experiences or miracles from those who sincerley seek Christ even if they weren't in the "right" church. The problem is that Mormons are incapable of taking this same principle and applying it to themselves to realize that the Lord might give THEM answers to their prayers, spiritual experiences and miracles, to bring them closer to Him even if THEY are the ones who aren't in the true church.

All Truth is God's Truth, all Wisdom, all Beauty, all Love: Divine.

[jkwilliams]

For those still in...jump in the waters fine...

 

I miss some members, but I don't miss the church. I certainly don't miss how I felt about myself as a believing Mormon. If I were convinced the church was true, I'd still have a hard time going back to the self-loathing.

[Anteojito]

I miss some members, but I don't miss the church. I certainly don't miss how I felt about myself as a believing Mormon. If I were convinced the church was true, I'd still have a hard time going back to the self-loathing.

 

 

What would it take to convince you the church is true?

[Five Solas]

Since boblloyd91 brought up Calvin, it's worth noting he gave this question considerable thought as well and concluded (Institutes, Book 1, Chapter 9)--

 

But what kind of Spirit did our Saviour promise to send? One who should not speak of himself, (John 16: 13) but suggest and instil the truths which he himself had delivered through the Word. Hence the office of the Spirit promised to us, is not to form new and unheard-of revelations, or to coin a new form of doctrine, by which we may be led away from the received doctrine of the gospel, but to seal on our minds the very doctrine which the gospel recommends.

The Holy Spirit is recognized in his agreement with Scripture

Hence it is easy to understand that we must give diligent heed both to the reading and hearing of Scripture, if we would obtain any benefit from the Spirit of God, (just as Peter praises those who attentively study the doctrine of the prophets, [2 Pet. 1:19] though it might have been thought to be superseded after the gospel light arose) and, on the contrary, that any spirit which passes by the wisdom of God's Word, and suggests any other doctrine, is deservedly suspected of vanity and falsehood. Since Satan transforms himself into an angel of light, what authority can the Spirit have with us if he be not ascertained by an infallible mark?

 

While LDS will likely be appalled by Calvin's reasoning and see it as a direct assault against their "Restored Gospel" (which I suppose it must be)--I actually find it comforting to know we have a basis to ascertain whether a spiritual experience is from God--it's found in God's Word, the Bible.

 

--Erik

 

[jkwilliams]

What would it take to convince you the church is true?

 

I'd probably have to forget everything I know about the church. And I'd have to ignore the spiritual promptings that led me out in the first place.

[Palerider]

Palerider. Hey.

 

You made a great observation. I was hurrying to write my post before work. If I wasn't clear, I intended to affirm the idea, which I had not considered before, that if one takes the position that God gives miracles and signs and wonders in all of the churches, none in any of the churches, including LDS, should think that these are the way God indicates where to make one's church affiliation.

 

I seldom start threads. One or two a year maybe. I recently started a thread on miracles. It was in November. There are claims by Catholics of miracles that make the believer in the miracle affirm distinctively Catholic doctrine. I had expected this to force the issue of saying that the miracles were either deceptions or even false signs "from the dark side". However, the most common response was that such miracles are pretty much everywhere. I had expected to defend and talk about miracles that were often verified by many witnesses. These weren't just healings or for good feelings that might appeal to anybody. They are doctrinally affirmative in favor of the Catholic faith. It seems hard to me to believe that the audible "voice" that spoke to Thomas Aquinas from the tabernacle, overheard by his companion, affirming that the hymns and prayers that that he had recently composed for the Church's liturgy could be from God if the doctrine Aquinas taught is false. I could find the "earwitness" account, but I paraphrase:

 

Thomas: Have I written correctly Lord, concerning your doctrine of the Eucharist?

Voice from the Tabernacle: You have spoken well my son.

 

Here was an honest inquiry from a man known to be humble and willing to be corrected, and God is so eager to keep people in every religion that He answers Thomas' question falsely? I can't believe in that. I could believe it was just a lie made up by St. Thomas' companion. I could believe it was the devil speaking. I do believe it was God speaking. I see reasonableness in all three of those positions. But I can't believe God gives all these religions similar miracles which result in keeping them scattered and divided from each other. Your observation, Palerider, shows the consistent position those need to take who hold that all religions get these kinds of miracles and experiences affirming all faiths. Miracles and interior locutions/experiences mean nothing to any of us if that is the case.

 

It appears to me that most seem to think that what happened to Thomas and these public miracles with multiple witnesses like the 80,000 at Fatima (20th and 21st Century prophecies about the Catholic Church) and Lourdes (confirming the Immaculate Conception) is common and happens everywhere. In the thread it was mentioned that Hindus and Buddhists and everybody else gets the same kind of confirmation of their own religion. I guess this is because because God is leading us where we want to go and He isn't very particular about where that is? I found it slightly frustrating at the time. Modern medicine was even cited as a miracle. I realized at that point  that we didn't even agree on the difference between scientific advancement and the interruption of nature by a supernatural power. I decided to just let it go. It seemed like I couldn't make myself understood. I think you touched on something this morning about this belief in universal miracles that I could have used at the time.

 

Rory

 

Here is the thread if anyone would be interested in revisiting it:

   

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62190-of-miracles-anti-miracles-and-what-they-might-mean/

 

PS: A disclaimer. Upon closer review, this particular thread does not appear to substantiate as thoroughly as I had hoped, my recollections of gaining the impression that it is common among LDS to believe that all faiths have equally verifiable and persuasive miracles and spiritual experiences. If necessary I'll do some more poking around. In any case, for those who hold that view (miracles for everyone), Palerider's argument would correctly invalidate all such evidence as a sign for the veracity of any particular religion. 

 

Gotcha.

 

I'm going to quote from a book (true story) written a couple of years ago about a very young Afghan girl who went through some pretty terrible stuff after the Talliban took control of Afghanistan. A number of her family members were killed and she lived in fear for her life and in dire circumstances for a number of years. On top of that she accidently stepped on a land mine and the greater part of her leg was blown off and she nearly died.

 

In the midst of her troubles, this is what she wrote. I'm sure it will have a familiar ring to those of you who have experienced something similar when it comes to approaching Heavenly Father. I highly recommend it as an excellent read.

 

The Story of My Life

An Afghan girl on the other side of the sky

Farah Ahmedi with Tamim Ansary

Simon and Schuster

 

“Strangely enough, whenever I was absorbed in private prayer, I felt I had company. I felt somebody’s presence and tenderness embracing me…….Late at night I went out at the darkest hour, two or three a.m., with my Precious-Koran in hand. I performed namaz, and then afterword, looking up at the stars, I talked to God. So many stars were shining up there in the darkness—shining down on me! I remember the wonderful things my second grade teacher had told me, about the sky being so large and the stars being bigger than Earth and looking small only because they were so inconceivably far away, and in those moments the grandeur of the universe exalted me and I felt the power of God.

And I felt His nearness, too, and I had no trouble confessing my troubles to him as intimately as I might to a loving friend. I silently said, “Allah-dear, my mother is suffering so! When will she be released from her hardships?” I said, “God-dear, this leg of mine is wearing away. When it’s gone, what will I do? Without my leg, I’m hardly even a person. I can’t even get myself to the bathroom. When my prosthetic is gone, what am I going to do?”

  No sooner had I posed such questions in my heart than I felt a warmth glowing and growing from the middle of me, and I knew that God was listening to me, that God was nearby, very close indeed, an invisible light, a bodiless friend, a smiling power. I had such a strong feeling about God being there.”

 

My point is that when we sincerely reach for God, He leads us regardless of what our "religion" might be. He may lead us to Mormonism and then well beyond to even more truth.