Too Sacred To Share?

[teddyaware]

Hello mbh and Teddy

 

You both have missed my point... mbh, you spoke of the Brethren thinking that a person has not really accepted Jesus Christ unless they are baptized into the Mormon Church... I stand by my view that this is incorrect (manual or no manual).... there are people of other faiths who have indeed accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer just as faithfully as we LDS, sometimes even more so when I think of some of the LDS I know...  when one of these people hears and accepts the gospel as we believe it to be, restored, and they are then baptized into the Church by someone with priesthood authority, that adds to their faith and understanding, and opens them to new light and understanding and the saving ordinances of Christ's restored church...  I firmly believe in the necessity of priesthood authority and the truthfulness and fulness of the gospel ... but I'm not so arrogant as to ever suggest that individuals of other faiths have not really accepted Jesus Christ.  And for those who didn't have the opportunity in this life hear the restored gospel, will be taught and given that opportunity beyond the veil.  And they will have agency... even there... to accept or not...

 

And that brings me to the statement that we are ordered to believe, etc... We put our doctrines and teachings forward... stating clearly that this is what we believe is necessary to progress and become exalted in God's Kingdom... persons are then able to choose to accept these things or not... but they are never ordered to do so... they make a choice based on their agency.  The Lord will judge how fully they understood...

 

GG

How could anybody argue with that? What you say is true and we are in agreement. I've known many people who truly believed, loved, and accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour before becoming LDS, and the Light of Christ inspired that fervent love and devotion to him. Becoming a Latter-day Saint makes it possible to deepen and broaden that pre-existing and very real relationship with the Lord. But even before becoming Latter-day Saints their faith in Him was real and authentic. He is the Light of the world and is the true light that lighteth every man and woman that cometh into the world. We shouldn't find it strange, then, that many people find the Saviour outside of the LDS Church. The Book of Mormon itself testifies of this fact...

"12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters." (1 Nephi 13)

"15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance;" (1 Nephi 13)

Edited January 7, 2014 by teddyaware

[Duncan]

I wish I could find those manuals.  Anyone have any idea where I could find the discussions we once had to present word for word during the 90s?  We had to memorize them.  I wish I remembered things I memorize now as well as I can still remember the discussions.  The second discussion during my time from 1995-1997 states, "Help the investigators understand that only by being baptized in the LDS church have they truly accepted Jesus Christ."  I don't see why this is so controversial.  You're actually saying you don't believe that's what the manual said? 

 

If there is life after death and it turns out that Mormonism wasn't the only Church with the authority to act in God's name, I'm going to be very angry and find myself screaming to God for justice, probably in vain.  I get the impression that this wouldn't bother mfbukowski.  It seems like he would say, it was still a good thing even if it wasn't true.  Perhaps I'll have to be able to say this to if I really want to be cured, but right now I can't see how one could not feel cheated if that's how the truth plays out. 

 

 

i lost so many flipcharts in the field. One time we had someone ask us if we baptized Saddam Hussein because the picture of the guy getting baptized looked exactly like him...

[saemo]

Hi there mormonnewb,

There are several examples throughout the scriptures where prophets testified they knew of things, revealed to them by revelation from God, that were to sacred to share. If you want, when I have more energy I'll reference them for you. But for now I'll share this one example from the Apostle Paul (note the strange turn of phrase Paul uses speaking of himself in the third person is an attempt on his part to not appear boastful):

"2 I knew a man (Paul speaking of himself) in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." (2 Corinthians 12)

Paul goes on to say, that he doesn't share his experiences because he doesn't want to be viewed as boasting. And, that if did think of boasting there is a thorn in his flesh, generally viewed as an unnamed particular person(s), that would persecute him. To keep from the appearance of boasting, he gives his own experience in the third person.

Beyond that, Paul is understood to be a Christian mystic, that is, one whose soul is in intimate union with Divinity. There have been and are Catholic mystics who find it difficult to share their experiences because there are not the words to describe their experiences. And, the experiences are not something that can be explained by human intellect. So the attempt is not made, or if it is, it falls short.

That is what I see in this portion of his letter to the Corinthians.

[mfbukowski]

 

 

If there is life after death and it turns out that Mormonism wasn't the only Church with the authority to act in God's name, I'm going to be very angry and find myself screaming to God for justice, probably in vain.  I get the impression that this wouldn't bother mfbukowski.  It seems like he would say, it was still a good thing even if it wasn't true.  Perhaps I'll have to be able to say this to if I really want to be cured, but right now I can't see how one could not feel cheated if that's how the truth plays out. 

No you are not getting it.  

The whole point is that truth is not what you think it is in this kind of case.

Different beliefs can be true for different people.

Is a pair of pliers more true than vice grips?  Beliefs are tools to get you closer to God- because language cannot express what God is.

All we have is images stories and approximations, some work for you and others work for other people.

[teddyaware]

Paul goes on to say, that he doesn't share his experiences because he doesn't want to be viewed as boasting. And, that if did think of boasting there is a thorn in his flesh, generally viewed as an unnamed particular person(s), that would persecute him. To keep from the appearance of boasting, he gives his own experience in the third person.

Beyond that, Paul is understood to be a Christian mystic, that is, one whose soul is in intimate union with Divinity. There have been and are Catholic mystics who find it difficult to share their experiences because there are not the words to describe their experiences. And, the experiences are not something that can be explained by human intellect. So the attempt is not made, or if it is, it falls short.

That is what I see in this portion of his letter to the Corinthians.

We Latter-day Saints call inspired men like Paul Prophets, Seers and Revelators. While we do believe Paul was made privy to many of the mysteries of God, we don't use the term mystic to describe men and women with like spiritual gifts.  

[knowone]

Can someone explain to me the concept of "too sacred to share"; particularly, in the context of giving a testimony?  Just about every FT meeting, someone will get up and say, "Because of spiritual experiences too sacred to share, I KNOW ..."  To me, this is the Mormon equivalent of "Because I said so ..."

 

Where did this idea of "too sacred to share" even come from?  I don't remember any event in scripture being described as "too sacred to share."  In fact, our very own JS shared his experiences in significant detail.  Can you imagine how the sacred grove narrative would have caught on had he said, "I went into that grove and then had an experience that was too sacred to share, but I KNOW that the Church has been restored on earth"?  I can't imagine that there would be 15 Mormons today; nevertheless, 15 MILLION.

 

So when did this "too sacred to share" stuff start?  And why does it continue?  By it's very definition, a testimony is a description of sights, sounds and events.  "I saw two personages ..." "There was a bright light ..." "I heard a voice that said ..."  If you went into a court of law and said, "I KNOW the defendant is guilty because of an experience I had that was too sacred to share," the judge might arrest you for contempt.  She certainly wouldn't allow a jury to even consider what you had to say.

 

In the same light, imagine if a friend tried to convince you to dine at his favorite restaurant and said, "I've had experiences there that were too culinary to share, but I KNOW Applebee's is the true restaurant."  Would you run out and make reservations for your wedding anniversary?  Not if you want to stay married, I imagine.

 

So why do we think that our "too sacred to share" experiences should have any more influence in spreading the Gospel?  And, by the way, from whom are we keeping these experiences secret from?  Can we tell them to our spouses and close friends?  Are we just keeping them secret from those pearl-loving swine?

 

Can someone provide me an explanation, provided it's not too sacred to share?

 

1 timothy 6:20, - timothy is chastised by paul 'keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane & vain babblings'.

[BrianHales]

 9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.  (Alma 12:9.)

 

Here's a few teachings from early leaders you may have already seen:

 

 

Joseph Smith:

            The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord?  I can keep a secret till Doomsday.    (December 19, 1841.) DHC 4:478‑479.

 

Hyrum Smith:

   And again I say unto you, an elder has no business to undertake to preach mysteries in any part of the world, for God has commanded us all to preach nothing but the first principles unto the world.  Neither has any elder any authority to preach any mysterious thing to any branch of the church unless he has a direct commandment from God to do so.  Let the matter of the grand councils of heaven, and the making of gods, worlds, and devils entirely alone: for you are not called to teach any such doctrine -- for neither you nor the people are capacitated to understand any such principles -- less so to teach them.  For when God commands men to teach such principles the saints will receive them.  Therefore beware what your teach! for the mysteries of God are not given to all me; and unto those to whom they are given they are placed under restrictions to impart only such as God will command the; and the residue is to be kept in a faithful breast, otherwise he will be brought under condemnation.  By this God will prove his faithful servants, who will be called and numbered with the chosen.  (Excerpt from a letter "To the brethren of the Church..." from Hyrum Smith printed in the Times and Seasons vol. 5 no. 6 [March 15, 1884] p. 474; emphasis added.)

 

 

JD 4:371‑372   Brigham Young  June 28, 1857  SLC

            There is one principle that I wish the people would understand and lay to heart.  Just as fast as you will prove before your God that you are worthy to receive the mysteries, if you please to call them so, of the kingdom of heaven ── that you are full of confidence in God ── that you will never betray a thing that God tells you that you will never reveal to your neighbor that which ought not to be revealed, as quick as you prepare to be entrusted with the things of God, there is an eternity of them to bestow upon you.  Instead of pleading with the Lord to bestow more upon you, plead with yourselves to have confidence in yourselves, to have integrity in yourselves, and know when to speak and what to speak, what to reveal, and how to carry yourselves and walk before the Lord.  And just as fast as you prove to Him that you will preserve everything secret that ought to be ── that you will deal out to your neighbors all which you ought, and no more, and learn how to dispense your knowledge to your families, friends, neighbors, and brethren, the Lord will bestow upon you, and give to you, and bestow upon you, until finally he will say to you, "You shall never fall; your salvation is sealed unto you; you are sealed up unto eternal life and salvation, through your integrity."

 

JD 4:288   Brigham Young  March 25, 1857  SLC

            Now I want to tell you that which, perhaps, many of you do not know.  Should you receive a vision of revelation from the Almighty, one that the Lord gave you concerning yourselves, or this people, but which you are not to reveal on account of your not being the proper person, or because it ought not to be known by the people at present, you should shut it up and seal it as close, and lock it as tight as heaven is to you, and make it as secret as the grave.  The Lord has no confidence in those who reveal secrets, for He cannot safely reveal Himself to such persons.  It is as much as He can do to get a particle of sense into some of the best and most influential men in the Church, in regard to real confidence in themselves.  They cannot keep things within their own bosoms.

            They are like a great many boys and men that I have seen, who would cause even a sixpence, when given to them, to become so hot that it would burn through the pocket of a dew vest, or pair of pantaloons, if they could not spend it.  It could not stay with them; they would feel so tied up because they were obliged to keep it, that the very fire of discontent would cause it to burn through the pocket, and they would lose the sixpence.  This is the case with a great many of the Elders of Israel, with regard to keeping secrets.  They burn with the idea, " O, I know things that brother Brigham does not understand." Bless your souls, I guess you do.  Don't you think that there are some things that you do not understand?  "There may be some things which I do not understand." That is as much as to say, "I know more than you." I am glad of it, if you do.  I wish that you knew a dozen times more.  When you see a person of that character, he has no soundness within him.

            If a person understands God and godliness, the principles of heaven, the principle of integrity, and the Lord reveals anything to that individual, no matter what, unless He gives permission to disclose it, it is locked up in eternal silence.  And when persons have proven to their messengers that their bosoms are like the lock‑ups of eternity, then the Lord says, I can reveal anything to them, because they never will disclose it until I tell them to.  Take persons of any other character, and they sap the foundation of the confidence they ought to have in themselves and in their God.