For Those Who Have Left...

[ALarson]

It's bad form to judge other people's spiritual experiences and how they interpret them, in my view. I am not someone else, and I don't have any insight into how their brains or spirits operate. Unless someone else has that gift, it kind of sucks to criticize people for "rationalizing" their own experience.

This.

 

I know that I had some of my most spiritual experiences when I was not attending church and had stopped believing.  I never felt closer to my creator than at that time.  I even had church members say things to me like, "you've lost the spirit" or "you need to come back so you can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost again".  Members need to realize how highly offensive that is.

 

Again, you do not need to be an active member of the Mormon church to have spiritual experiences

[why me]

Whyme is an ex-mo expert. That's why he is here answering a question that wasn't directed to him.

After almost ten years on the mormon boards, I could consider myself an expert on ex-moism.

[jkwilliams]

After almost ten years on the mormon boards, I could consider myself an expert on ex-moism.

 

I'd say you're an expert at projection.

[jkwilliams]

This.

 

I know that I had some of my most spiritual experiences when I was not attending church and had stopped believing.  I never felt closer to my creator than at that time.  I even had church members say things to me like, "you've lost the spirit" or "you need to come back so you can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost again".  Members need to realize how highly offensive that is.

 

Again, you do not need to be an active member of the Mormon church to have spiritual experiences

 

I've had spiritual experiences since I left the church, some of which have been quite specific and direct. Am I supposed to ignore them if they contradict what people here think the spirit should be telling me?

[why me]

This.

 

I know that I had some of my most spiritual experiences when I was not attending church and had stopped believing.  I never felt closer to my creator than at that time.  I even had church members say things to me like, "you've lost the spirit" or "you need to come back so you can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost again".  Members need to realize how highly offensive that is.

 

Again, you do not need to be an active member of the Mormon church to have spiritual experiences

This could be true. However, either the book of mormon is what it claims to be or it isn't. In the book of mormon there is a promise. When a spiritual experience is given  based on that promise it says a lot about the truth claims of the lds church. Let me put it this way: if people did not have a spiritual experience when praying about the book of mormon the church would be a dead church. But countless millions have had such an experience.

[mfbukowski]

The view that all spiritual experiences lead TOWARD God who teaches us each individually the way we individually need to go to become closer to him takes into account all these comments.

 

And the idea that our journey continues in the spirit world - taught only by LDS- rings true if this is the case.

 

I think that in the eternities after all the learning is over we will all see that the church is the closest description of what we will all experience.

 

It's as simple as that.

Edited February 18, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Senator]

if people did not have a spiritual experience when praying about the book of mormon the church would be a dead church.

 

I guess the church should be dead to me then.

 

Huh, who would have thunk it...

[why me]

It's bad form to judge other people's spiritual experiences and how they interpret them, in my view. I am not someone else, and I don't have any insight into how their brains or spirits operate. Unless someone else has that gift, it kind of sucks to criticize people for "rationalizing" their own experience.

I think that they do rationalize their lds experiences when they decide to leave the church. That was my point. I have seen it many times on exmo boards. It becomes a mantra that religious people of various faiths have such experiences and so, my lds experience was not that special. It is a rationalization and gives such exmos a "warm fuzzy" when they leave the faith.

[why me]

I guess the church should be dead to me then.

 

Huh, who would have thunk it...

I think that if most people did not receive answers to their prayers about the book of mormon, it would be very difficult for the lds church to continue. It all comes down to the promise in the book of mormon and also about praying about the truthfulness of the lds church. If no answer comes to most of those that pray, the church would fall like a house of cards.

 

The lds church is a spiritual experience church.

Edited February 18, 2014 by why me

[jkwilliams]

I think that they do rationalize their lds experiences when they decide to leave the church. That was my point. I have seen it many times on exmo boards. It becomes a mantra that religious people of various faiths have such experiences and so, my lds experience was not that special. It is a rationalization and gives such exmos a "warm fuzzy" when they leave the faith.

 

I don't think you have any idea what other people feel or think. That makes you normal, I suppose, but it makes you wholly unqualified to pass judgment on how other people deal with what they have experienced. You don't know what their spiritual experience was or whether it is inappropriate to rationalize it. You seem to see what you want to see in us evil exmos. Maybe it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

[ALarson]

This could be true. However, either the book of mormon is what it claims to be or it isn't. In the book of mormon there is a promise. When a spiritual experience is given  based on that promise it says a lot about the truth claims of the lds church. Let me put it this way: if people did not have a spiritual experience when praying about the book of mormon the church would be a dead church. But countless millions have had such an experience.

What do you mean by your first sentence above?  "Could be true?"  I know it's true because I experienced it.  But in your mind, that is different than the example you give regarding the praying about the Book of Mormon and having a spiritual experience?  

 

Why?

 

And, as far as the rest of your post, I have determined that the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be.  However, I do believe it is inspired scripture.

[jkwilliams]

I think that if most people did not receive answers to their prayers about the book of mormon, it would be very difficult for the lds church to continue. It all comes down to the promise in the book of mormon and also about praying about the truthfulness of the lds church. If no answer comes to most of those that pray, the church would fall like a house of cards.

 

In my mission, very few people who joined the church knew enough about the church to pray about it. Heck, quite a few people didn't even know they were joining a church or which one. People join the church for an infinite number of reasons, and answers to prayer is just one of them. If most people received answers to their prayers, the activity and retention rates would be much higher.

[rameumptom]

Alma 29:8 helps on other people in other religions receiving spiritual experiences.

 

For me, I could attempt to convince myself that my experiences are just a "piece of undigested potato" (as Ebenezer Scrooge would insist) and stop believing. OR I can accept the experience and enjoy it.

 

After all, if I find something that brings me happiness, with zero downside to it, why would I stop?  Is it better to be miserable/less happy with a secular view of things than to find a bit of joy in something ineffable?

[Senator]

 

The lds church is a spiritual experience church.

 

To some, maybe many.

 

From my personal experience, I feel the "spiritual experience" mantra in the church to be over hyped.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

 

After all, if I find something that brings me happiness, with zero downside to it, why would I stop?  Is it better to be miserable/less happy with a secular view of things than to find a bit of joy in something ineffable?

This is true as far as it goes, as long as we recognize that there are many people who are much happier with a secular view of things (or perhaps another religious tradition). There are many to whom the teachings of Mormonism have caused great pain.

[jkwilliams]

Alma 29:8 helps on other people in other religions receiving spiritual experiences.

 

For me, I could attempt to convince myself that my experiences are just a "piece of undigested potato" (as Ebenezer Scrooge would insist) and stop believing. OR I can accept the experience and enjoy it.

 

After all, if I find something that brings me happiness, with zero downside to it, why would I stop?  Is it better to be miserable/less happy with a secular view of things than to find a bit of joy in something ineffable?

Agreed. I'd be back in a heartbeat if the church made me happy with no downside.

[Johnnie Cake]

Confirmation bias...I expected miracles...and found them...prayed to find car keys and when I did...attributed the finding to God  rather than to me searching everywhere frantically.

 

 

I remember a prayer I offered in my youth.  I was a member of my Jr High band. ...we were to march in the Days of 47 parade but I had left part of my band uniform at school. I rode my bike to the school only to find it empty and all of the doors locked.  I prayed knowing that I needed that uniform to participate in the parade.  After praying I rechecked the doors I had previously tried and found one that was open, I entered the empty school got my uniform from my locker and left thanking God for opening that door so I could be in the parade.

 

Did God unlock that door?  Was there a janitor working that day who heard my pounding on the door and then left it somewhat ajar? I used to believe it was God...now I believe it was the janitor...funny but even as a non-believer I still get chills when reflecting on this experience...

[Brian 2.0]

Let me put it this way: if people did not have a spiritual experience when praying about the book of mormon the church would be a dead church. But countless millions have had such an experience.

 

This logic is applicable to a lot more than just the Book of Mormon.  If people did not have spiritual experiences that they should enter into polygamist relationships than the FLDS would be a dead church.  But it's not.  People have spiritual experiences that they should practice polygamy, but does that prove that God wants polygamy to be practiced in our day?

[Palerider]

I commented on this in post 6. This is another way of rationalizing. My experience was meaningless because people of other faiths also claim spiritual experience. Thus, how can I trust my experience to be a true experience. This is quite a new tactic by critics and exmembers to have members doubt their spiritual experience.

 

I can't speak for other people and their experiences...I can only know my own experiences and what they were and how they influenced my own belief process especially when I received an answer that the church was true.

 

Again your critical reading skills are lacking and you have sought to oversimplify what was written and change it to what you want it to say rather than what was truly said.

 

What I wrote takes NOTHING away from the very valid spiritual experiences that LDS members have. As a matter of fact it confirms them. But the subtlety that seems to escape you is that just because one has those experiences IN the LDS faith does not automatically translate to meaning that the LDS faith is the one true church.

 

Other people in other faiths have experiences every bit as valid as you do in yours (although you cannot bear to believe it) and according to you, they aren't in the true church. However as missionaries we were taught that we were to recognize their experiences AS VALID because Heavenly Father doesn't restrict spiritual experiences from those who seek Him just because they aren't in the true church. That would be kind of stupid wouldn't it?

 

SO if an individual is in the LDS faith (which I and many others consider not to be true) Heavenly Father wouldn't restrict that individual from spiritual experiences, just because they were in a church that didn't teach the entire truth.

 

Here's a word picture for you:

 

"Joe Seeker is a baptist who has a witness of Christ and lives his life the best he's able. He knows that Christ is Lord and Savior because he reads the Bible and has prayed to Heavenly Father and it has been revealed to him that Jesus is the Christ, just as the Bible promises."

 

"Murphy Mormon has read the BofM and the Bible and God has witnessed to him that Jesus is the Christ and because he happened to be investigating or born into the LDS faith when he received his testimony, he now thinks the LDS faith must be the one and only true faith and that God was just having pity on Joe Seeker when he gave him his testimony or else deep down he thinks maybe Joe's experience is kind of phony and not nearly as valid as his own.

 

It never occurs to Murphy Mormon that maybe the Lord was having mercy on HIM when he gave him his testimony in spite of his not being in the true church either."

 

Although Murphy is well intentioned, it truly is a position of arrogance.................

Edited February 18, 2014 by Palerider

[Palerider]

For the record, I was not giving a point for criticism of other posts, but the idea, new to me, that to be consistent to the position LDS often take with prayers, spiritual experiences, and miracles in other churches, then none of these are helpful in identifying the one true church.

 

I'd like you to expand on this a little.

[jkwilliams]

I've met a lot of people with differing religious beliefs, but for the ones who really believe, it's invariably that they had some kind of spiritual experience that led them to believe. They may not put it in the same terms that Mormons do, and I don't know many religions that have something like Moroni's promise, but they have these experiences anyway. Years ago, when I was still a believer, an Evangelical anti-Mormon kept attacking Mormons for basing their beliefs on feelings. I asked him how he knew God lives. He said it was because he believes the Bible. I asked why he believed the Bible, and he started talking about contemporary evidence and so on. I said, "None of that tells me or you that the Bible is God's word. How do you know it's God's word?" He started talking about an experience he'd had in which he was filled with an overwhelming feeling of the presence of God, and he knew God lived and the Bible was God's word. I asked him if he would reduce that experience to mere "feelings," and he said, no, of course not. I then said that he should therefore refrain from reducing LDS spiritual experiences to mere feelings.

My point here is that these experiences happen to Mormons and non-Mormons and ex-Mormons and Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus and everyone else. They may not describe them in the same way that we have been taught, but they are the same kinds of experiences, nonetheless. People in this thread who say that those of us who have left have turned our backs on the spirit are speaking of things they cannot know. I respect other people's spiritual experiences, but I expect the same for mine in return.

[Palerider]

The lds church is unique. In the book of mormon there is a promise that if one prays about the book's truthfulness, an answer will be given. This is an unique claim to make for any book. If Joseph wrote this book it would take absolute gall for him to write such a claim in a novel. And he would have known that people would get a blank if they prayed about it.

 

However, if the book was written by ancient prophets with such a claim, and people prayed about the book and countless people have received countless witnesses about its truthfulness and received spiritual experiences about it, it tells much about the book. And this is what makes the lds church rather unique.

 

What you leave out here (because the church doesn't want to keep track of such things) are the "countless" people who have sincerely read the BofM and prayed about it and got a big fat ZERO in response.  

 

I have read the BofM cover to cover 7 times plus having studied it as lesson material and have never had a confirming witness that it was ancient scripture. Always got a bit of a weird feeling from it that maybe it was ginned up by the hand of man. 

 

Sure, it has some scripture borrowed from the Bible and it makes an attempt to clarify through commentary some of the puzzles in Christianity but it always ends up making them somewhat more murky or creating new questions that have even more difficult answers.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Palerider

[Palerider]

After almost ten years on the mormon boards, I could consider myself an expert on ex-moism.

 

Delusions of grandeur.............

[jkwilliams]

Delusions of grandeur.............

Yup. There's something oddly amusing about being lectured about Mormonism by someone who doesn't actually participate in the LDS church. Delusions of grandeur are better than delusions of light cotton.

[Palerider]

Yup. There's something oddly amusing about being lectured about Mormonism by someone who doesn't actually participate in the LDS church. Delusions of grandeur are better than delusions of light cotton.

 

Never mind...........

Edited February 18, 2014 by Palerider