President Monson Issued A Court Summons? Is This For Real?

[Kenngo1969]

I'm predicting this will fairly soon fall off the public radar. It will have about as much staying power as Grant Palmer's weird story about the visits with the sitting General Authority who allegedly told him none of the Brethren believe in Mormonism and they are only in it for the money. Who's really talking about that anymore?

It's funny you should say that.  I mentioned Palmer earlier in this thread by way of comparison, stating that I suspected that his "evidence" and Phillips' "evidence" are about equally reliable.

[Tacenda]

Sheila, I don't know if you have read this. It is from an anti site so can't provide link, I believe Michelle gave the unlinked address in an above post though. I am wondering how you read the judge's motivation if Phillips' claims of the time spent is accurate, especially what is implied by the bolded parts.

"Phillips is of the view that his dealings with the Magistrates’ Court system should have taken only a few days but, instead, extended out to almost four months. He made his written submissions to the Court on 10 October 2013 and attended an oral hearing before the District Judge at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on 15 October 2013. The Court’s legal advisers went through Philips’ legal submissions on 15 October 2013.

Rulings and discussions about the service of summons continued until the District Magistrates’ Court issued its summonses to Monson on 31 January 2014. The process of deliberation leading up to the Court’s decision to authorize the summonses involved the judge putting every conceivable defense on behalf of Monson to Phillips. The judge conducted a very detailed assessment of the evidence backing up the allegations made by Phillips. Why the process took so long is unclear, although Phillips has his private opinions on this. He suspects there may have been procedural Interference attempted by the Mormon Church, which might help account for the fact that it took him over three months to get the case filing through the lower UK Magistrates’ Court to the point of the summonses being issued to Monson.

Phillips was concerned that Monson may have already known that something was brewing. He noted, for example, that arguments put to Phillips by a Clerk to the Justices (before Phillips finally prevailed in getting the Court to issue its summons) contained legalistic-sounding use of English vernacular concerning matters of arrest warrants and summonses that sounded, to Phillips, like they could have perhaps been provided by Mormon Church legal advisors.

Phillips was eventually notified by the Magistrates’ Court that the summons had been signed off on by the District judge. The summons was sent out to Monson from the UK via first-class post."

IMO, the essays being put on LDS.org which btw, appear to have no dates, no announcement, and buried in there under topical guide, just might be there to cover tracks, or look like the church has always been open with particular information. It's possible the church is doing whatever is necessary to prevent fallout that would hurt the church overall. Maybe the church did get wind of this early on.

[Calm]

Are you suggesting the British system is corrupt and the Church got wind of it through a court officer sharing confidential material?

The essays were announced BEFORE October Surprise was shared by Phillips online and have been in production for two years.

So how can something begun first be caused by something begun later?

Edited February 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[halconero]

IMO, the essays being put on LDS.org which btw, appear to have no dates, no announcement, and buried in there under topical guide, just might be there to cover tracks, or look like the church has always been open with particular information. It's possible the church is doing whatever is necessary to prevent fallout that would hurt the church overall. Maybe the church did get wind of this early on.

It's super easy for the average person from age 18-30 too find the original publishing date on an article even if it wasn't posted. On google chrome it takes me about 1 right click, and 2 left on my mouse and it will pull up the date (I don't have super hacker skills either, it's pretty common knowledge).

Furthermore, these essays were announced last summer.

In other words...not putting the dates on there, when they're so easy to find, wouldn't stop any investigation.

Tacenda, I know you have had, and continue to have struggles with doctrines and practices in the church. I totally understand and sympathize, because I've been there myself. It would be unwise to let these feelings cause either of us to look for conspiracy or coverup where there's evidence pointing us in the opposite direction.

[why me]

Are you suggesting the British system is corrupt and the Church got wind of it through a court officer sharing confidential material?

The essays were announced BEFORE October Surprise was shared by Phillips online and have been in production for two years.

So how can something begun first be caused by something begun later?

I think that people can get confused with what the critics are claiming. Some are claiming that the essays were a result of getting a tip off about the court case in the works. So, we now have the essays. I do believe that this is where tacenda is coming from.

 

I would hope that members would not so readily believe what they read on critic sites but....I think that this is wishful thinking. I do wish that members would put critic information under the cynical eyes too because some members tend to swallow the critics arguments very well. However, I am now talking in general terms and not about tacenda. I have no idea why she would imply what she implied...I just made a guess.

[Tacenda]

Hal and Cal, it is my simple minded deduction, as crazy as it is. Do we in fact know the timeline as well as we think?

[Avatar4321]

Wow.  in order to bring a criminal prosecution, a private citizen doesn't even have to show he has a prima facie case, but, rather, simply has to convince a judge that he's met a few technical legal requirements?!  It's even easier to indict a ham sandwich in the UK than it is in the US?!!

 

Those, Ma'am, are scary thoughts!!

 

Private citizens can file charges against individuals in Pennsylvania courts as well. They don't have to prove a prima facie case when the file the charges, they just have to follow legal procedure. The prima facie case is proved at the preliminary hearing for cases to be held to Common Pleas and reach trials. I would not be surprised if the UK is similiar in some regards.

[Tacenda]

I think that people can get confused with what the critics are claiming. Some are claiming that the essays were a result of getting a tip off about the court case in the works. So, we now have the essays. I do believe that this is where tacenda is coming from.

I would hope that members would not so readily believe what they read on critic sites but....I think that this is wishful thinking. I do wish that members would put critic information under the cynical eyes too because some members tend to swallow the critics arguments very well. However, I am now talking in general terms and not about tacenda. I have no idea why she would imply what she implied...I just made a guess.

No, I never read it anywhere. It just came to me. What is so wrong with what I said? Shouldn't the church do whatever possible to avoid a long drawn out court case?

[why me]

IMO, the essays being put on LDS.org which btw, appear to have no dates, no announcement, and buried in there under topical guide, just might be there to cover tracks, or look like the church has always been open with particular information. It's possible the church is doing whatever is necessary to prevent fallout that would hurt the church overall. Maybe the church did get wind of this early on.

I sometimes think that you see the lds church in conspiratorial terms. It is as if the church in salt lake has people involved in conspiracies to hide this and hide that...all the while holding secret damage control meetings.

[why me]

No, I never read it anywhere. It just came to me. What is so wrong with what I said? Shouldn't the church do whatever possible to avoid a long drawn out court case?

It is the way that you put it. Sometimes we need to give the lds church a better interpretation of what it is as a church. In your post, you had church members in the office building doing damage control, attempting to respond to a court case against them, so the church can be placed in a better light.

 

But people here are telling you...it could not have happened that way.

[MichelleD]

Are you suggesting the British system is corrupt and the Church got wind of it through a court officer sharing confidential material?

The essays were announced BEFORE October Surprise was shared by Phillips online and have been in production for two years.

So how can something begun first be caused by something begun later?

Tom Phillips has stated this:

"The CPS are aware of it. I reported the matter to the Serious Fraud Office and the police last April, and they are still investigating it. Typically, they take about two years on such a matter. That is why I went the pp [private prosecutor] route. I can't wait that long."

If this is true regarding the date and if the church was notified at that time, they've known since last April. Maybe Sheila can let us know if that would be the case.

[Scott Lloyd]

Tom Phillips has stated this:

"The CPS are aware of it. I reported the matter to the Serious Fraud Office and the police last April, and they are still investigating it. Typically, they take about two years on such a matter. That is why I went the pp [private prosecutor] route. I can't wait that long."

If this is true regarding the date and if the church was notified at that time, they've known since last April. Maybe Sheila can let us know if that would be the case.

cal said the essays have been in production for two years. Last April is not even a year ago.

[Tacenda]

I want to apologise, for some reason I thought the church had done an essay on the BoA recently, as part of the other essays rolling out. But when I go to the topical guide, I don't even find the Book of Abraham listed. I was correlating that biggy with the recent summons. ETA: Is there a list of all the essays showing what has been done and what is to come?

Edited February 15, 2014 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

Private citizens can file charges against individuals in Pennsylvania courts as well. They don't have to prove a prima facie case when the file the charges, they just have to follow legal procedure. The prima facie case is proved at the preliminary hearing for cases to be held to Common Pleas and reach trials. I would not be surprised if the UK is similiar in some regards.

That's interesting.  Thank you very much for the information.  Do you have a link to, say, a statute authorizing private prosecutions in Pennsylvania, and/or, say, a court information site discussing the "How-Tos"?  And do you have any idea how common private prosecutions are in PA?  By the way, to be fair, as I understand it, anyone in any U.S. jurisdiction can commence a prosecution by presenting evidence to a Grand Jury ... if the Grand Jury returns a true bill, which is probably pretty rare.

[ALarson]

cal said the essays have been in production for two years. Last April is not even a year ago.

Have they really been in production for two years?  I had not heard that.  Why did it take so long to get some written and released?  Just curious...

I think that MichelleD was just saying that the church could have known about this as early as last April (which IIRC, was before the first essay was released, is that correct?). Now I need to go check...

Edited February 15, 2014 by ALarson

[Five Solas]

http://history.lds.org/article/thomas-s-monson-testimony?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=16&topic=resources

Appreciate the list, calmoriah.  Are there any standouts here you'd recommend if someone wanted to understand the worldview and theology of Thomas S. Monson? 

 

I notice most of these resources are pretty old, dating back when we understood Native Americans were "Lamanites" and blacks couldn't hold the priesthood and there wasn't much quibbling over what constituted "doctrine" vs. mere "policy."  (Do you remember those days?  I still do...)  No doubt Monson has distanced himself along with the LDS majority--which means reading his works from 2 to 4 decades ago isn't going to be as helpful as more recent work (the 2007 reprint of 1977's "In Search of the Christmas Spirit" notwithstanding).

 

If you have a book recommendation, I'll make time for it. 

 

--Erik

 

PS.  Kenngo, are you giving up & conceding my points?  (post # 695 )

;0)

[MichelleD]

Have they really been in production for two years?  I had not heard that.  Why did it take so long to get some written and released?  Just curious...

I think that MichelleD was just saying that the church could have known about this as early as last April (which IIRC, was before the first essay was released, is that correct?). Now I need to go check...

Yes, I was just saying that I don't think there was a leak or that the British system is corrupt. I simply stated that the church could have known about this case as early as last April.

Calmoriah, what's your source for the information that the church was working on the essays 2 years before they started releasing them? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to know more about that. Thanks.

[JulieM]

Have they really been in production for two years?  I had not heard that.  Why did it take so long to get some written and released?  Just curious...

I think that MichelleD was just saying that the church could have known about this as early as last April (which IIRC, was before the first essay was released, is that correct?). Now I need to go check...

I think that the 13 Essays were announced in June of 2013. So, yes, that would have been after April. I had not heard that the essays had been in production for 2 years. I would also ask why they would take two years to write. Maybe the leaders had been discussing producing something like them for a couple of years before they were actually written? That makes more sense to me.

[Thinking]

Yes, of course there's more than one type of fraud.  While it may be unfair, in the minds of some, that Ponzi schemes...get what they consider to be an inordinate amount of public and media attention, the fact of the matter remains: it is precisely because of the amount of public and media attention this kind of scheme gets that it is most closely associated in the public mind with the word "fraud."

 

If this is true, then why were you the first poster in this thread (801st post) to make such an obvious connection between fraud and Ponzi scheme?

[Kenngo1969]

I think that the 13 Essays were announced in June of 2013. So, yes, that would have been after April. I had not heard that the essays had been in production for 2 years. I would also ask why they would take two years to write. Maybe the leaders had been discussing producing something like them for a couple of years before they were actually written? That makes more sense to me.

I don't know for sure, I'm simply speculating based on similar projects (on unrelated subjects and in unrelated areas) that I've been involved in.  Since (if what others have said is accurate) multiple people were involved in researching, drafting, editing, and rewriting the essays, it takes quite a bit of time to achieve sufficient consensus to go forward with the final project.  One might say, "Perhaps we should add in something about [x]," another says, "Perhaps we should take out this part about [y]," and still another says, "We need to reword the part about [z]," and so on.  If that's the sort of process that took place, and if a large enough group of people were involved (or even a small but very a-n-a-l group of people ) I can easily see how that would be the case.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Wiki Wonka]

Are you suggesting the British system is corrupt and the Church got wind of it through a court officer sharing confidential material?

The essays were announced BEFORE October Surprise was shared by Phillips online and have been in production for two years.

So how can something begun first be caused by something begun later?

 

Perhaps the essays were prepared in response to predictions of the "Mormon Apocalypse?" Mr. Phillips has been predicting it since the beginning of 2013:

 

• January 3, 2013: "I prophesy, in the honorable name of Jesus Smith, that 2013 will be the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse' . The gig is up."
• January 17, 2013: "That's why I believe 2013 is the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse' . They have been so inept at dealing with past crises, they haven't a hope of dealing with the big ones that are coming."
• February 10, 2013: "The "pro-truthers" will ultimately overcome the "anti-truthers". The Mormon Apocalypse is coming."
• June 5, 2013: "Yes, now looking forward to the 'Mormon Apocalypse' . With my inert evolutionary given gift of prophesy I hereby prophesy that 2013 will close as 'the beginning of the Mormon Apocalypse'. Not only will TSCC shoot themselves in the foot with the strategy outlined by Jesus Smith, there are more damaging events to yet unfold this year. Watch for big news before October Conference."
• June 19, 2013: "I prophesy, in the inspired name of Jesus Smith (my friend David Twede, Exmo of the year 2012), that 2013 will be looked back on as the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse' ."
• June 23, 2013: "I could only take two minutes of Holland's sickly nonsense. Lying, deceitful, egotistical apostle. The Mormon Apocalypse is coming."

And now.....it's here!

 

WW

Edited February 15, 2014 by Wiki Wonka

[ALarson]

Perhaps the essays were prepared in response to predictions of the "Mormon Apocalypse?" Mr. Phillips has been predicting it since the beginning of 2013:

 

• January 3, 2013: "I prophesy, in the honorable name of Jesus Smith, that 2013 will be the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse' . The gig is up."
• January 17, 2013: "That's why I believe 2013 is the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse' . They have been so inept at dealing with past crises, they haven't a hope of dealing with the big ones that are coming."
• February 10, 2013: "The "pro-truthers" will ultimately overcome the "anti-truthers". The Mormon Apocalypse is coming."
• June 5, 2013: "Yes, now looking forward to the 'Mormon Apocalypse' . With my inert evolutionary given gift of prophesy I hereby prophesy that 2013 will close as 'the beginning of the Mormon Apocalypse'. Not only will TSCC shoot themselves in the foot with the strategy outlined by Jesus Smith, there are more damaging events to yet unfold this year. Watch for big news before October Conference."
• June 19, 2013: "I prophesy, in the inspired name of Jesus Smith (my friend David Twede, Exmo of the year 2012), that 2013 will be looked back on as the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse' ."
• June 23, 2013: "I could only take two minutes of Holland's sickly nonsense. Lying, deceitful, egotistical apostle. The Mormon Apocalypse is coming."

And now.....it's here!

 

WW

Funny!  I'm extremely underwhelmed 

 

(Wiki Wonka, thank you for posting those dates and quotes.)

[Abulafia]

I don't like Tom's tone in those posts Wikiwonka, but wow, you went quote mining.  How long did that take!

[Kenngo1969]

 [Abulafia, Post #726]:

 

Here's the direct link to the Radio Show.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b03tr7hm 

The segment starts at about 20.00 minutes in.

 

I gave the segment of BBC Radio 4 personality Nick Clegg’s show regarding this case, which Abulafia linked to, above, a listen.  About Phillips’ contention with respect to the Book of Abraham, there would have to be broad consensus, at least, on the prospect that we have the papyri from which Joseph Smith alleged to have translated the Book of Abraham in order for Phillips even to have a fraud case on that basis, much less to prevail.  There is no such consensus.  (And even if there were, would [or should] something less than near unanimity be sufficient to sustain a criminal prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt?  I don’t think so.)

 

And I agree with Mr. Frank Cranmer that, while Phillips, et al, might wish to draw a bright, clear line between theology on the one hand and “fact” on the other, it’s difficult (if not impossible) to do so in matters of religion.  Mr. Cranmer asks, “If [Thomas S. Monson believes] it [i.e., believes what the Church teaches] . . . is it dishonest?”  Perhaps Grant Palmer and one of his sources, the [conveniently-anonymous] Seventy—who allegedly told him that the First Presidency and the Twelve all know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a fraud; they simply feel the need to keep up the charade for members’ benefit—will be called as witnesses?

 

And, consistent with what both I and others have consistently pointed out on this thread, Mr. Cranmer also raises the question whether matters which are dependent less on facts (contrary to Phillips’ assertion) and more on faith are “justiciable at all.”  I don’t believe they are.  As Nick Clegg also pointed out If this prosecution is successful, what’s to stop disaffected members of any religion from mounting a similar one?

Edited February 15, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

I think that the 13 Essays were announced in June of 2013. So, yes, that would have been after April. I had not heard that the essays had been in production for 2 years. I would also ask why they would take two years to write. Maybe the leaders had been discussing producing something like them for a couple of years before they were actually written? That makes more sense to me.

I don't know what the schedule was, but I do know that the wheels of Correlation turn slowly with all the drafts, reviews and  sign-offs that must be done. Preserving the purity of the doctrine is a careful process.

Moreover, the notion strikes me as beyond strange that the Church would let one fanatical apostate control its timing as has been alleged. It's my hunch that Phillips is viewed as just one more yapping dog as the caravan moves forward.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Scott Lloyd