President Monson Issued A Court Summons? Is This For Real?

[Duncan]

I am curious how you guys are finding new converts. But that's a topic for another thread. Would you be willing to discuss it?

 

 

yes! Don't hog!!!

[canard78]

Look, Joseph Smith was constantly in court.  In fact, when he was in Carthage, he bailed out on the original charge of the destruction of the Expositor, and was re-arrested on the charge of *treason*, since that was not a bailable offense.

 

I suspect that the church lawyers have eaten such court cases for breakfast, just another day at the office.

 

I love that this thread has come all the way back to the Carthage charges (in case you missed it cdowis, we had a three page tangent on Joseph's carthage charges at about page 25 when waiting for sheilauk to come back. I think kenngo even wrote a poem about it or something.

[Kenngo1969]

I love that this thread has come all the way back to the Carthage charges (in case you missed it cdowis, we had a three page tangent on Joseph's carthage charges at about page 25 when waiting for sheilauk to come back. I think kenngo even wrote a poem about it or something.

Well, it wasn't exactly a poem!

[The Nehor]

Then I think we should pray for our brother. Perhaps the Lord will do with him as He did with some others who tried to destroy his Church and bring him back with power.

 

I like Joseph Smith's prayer:

 

"Let thine anger be kindled against our enemies; and, in the fury of thine heart, with thy sword avenge us of our wrongs."

[Wiki Wonka]

I am curious how you guys are finding new converts. But that's a topic for another thread. Would you be willing to discuss it?

 

We can follow up in another thread if you wish, since this is off-topic. I'll just give the Reader's Digest answer here.

 

I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. The wards here are very diverse. In my home ward, we have a lot of folks from the Pacific islands. We also have a separate Chinese branch, a Spanish speaking branch and a Tongan ward. My home ward has baptisms relatively frequently. As a point of interest, our stake president (and several of our high councilors, including myself) are students of Church history, so there aren't really any historical questions that take them by surprise. In fact, when I write articles related to Church history, some of the first people that see them are in ward and stake leadership. (They are all very familiar with my work with FairMormon).

 

Finding new converts was actually the subject of our Saturday evening session of stake conference. The theme was, of course, "Hastening the Work." Elder Packer actually came down off the stand and interacted with everyone during the meeting, asking them questions. He talked about how important it is to pray for missionary opportunities. He then showed photos of a number of families in our stake (about six or seven of them) who had joined the church during the past year and described how each of them became familiar with the Church. One of families was in my ward - a family of five, mother, father and three teenage kids that were baptized about 8 months ago and are all active. When Elder Packer showed a picture of one family, he asked the person in the congregation who had initially contacted them to describe how he had met the family. It turns out that the man tries to have some sort of missionary opportunity each day, and he had simply handed the father a pass-along card. That ultimately led the the entire family taking the missionary lessons. Another family became familiar with the Church when their young daughter asked her friend to come listen to her sing in church. 

 

I am the high councilor assigned to our single adult ward. The Gospel Essentials class is actually larger than the Gospel Doctrine class because there are so many new members. All of these new folks are all fellowshipped by their friends, and we have an outstanding set of sister missionaries working in the ward. In fact, they just transferred one sister out and transferred two more back in to replace her, so there is now a triplet(?) of sister missionaries assigned to the singles ward. I believe that the two new ones are there to gain experience from the one who has been there a long time. We have baptisms in the singles ward every month.

 

The point is, I suppose, that the new converts are gained through prayer and fellowship. The missionaries in our stake don't really do any of the old fashioned tracting. But this is California, and I can't really speak for other areas.

 

WW

Edited February 19, 2014 by Wiki Wonka

[bjw]

We can follow up in another thread if you wish, since this is off-topic. I'll just give the Reader's Digest answer here.

 

I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. The wards here are very diverse. In my home ward, we have a lot of folks from the Pacific islands. We also have a separate Chinese branch, a Spanish speaking branch and a Tongan ward. My home ward has baptisms relatively frequently. As a point of interest, our stake president (and several of our high councilors, including myself) are students of Church history, so there aren't really any historical questions that take them by surprise. In fact, when I write articles related to Church history, some of the first people that see them are in ward and stake leadership. (They are all very familiar with my work with FairMormon).

 

Finding new converts was actually the subject of our Saturday evening session of stake conference. The theme was, of course, "Hastening the Work." Elder Packer actually came down off the stand and interacted with everyone during the meeting, asking them questions. He talked about how important it is to pray for missionary opportunities. He then showed photos of a number of families in our stake (about six or seven of them) who had joined the church during the past year and described how each of them became familiar with the Church. One of families was in my ward - a family of five, mother, father and three teenage kids that were baptized about 8 months ago and are all active. When Elder Packer showed a picture of one family, he asked the person in the congregation who had initially contacted them to describe how he had met the family. It turns out that the man tries to have some sort of missionary opportunity each day, and he had simply handed the father a pass-along card. That ultimately led the the entire family taking the missionary lessons. Another family became familiar with the Church when their young daughter asked her friend to come listen to her sing in church. 

 

I am the high councilor assigned to our single adult ward. The Gospel Essentials class is actually larger than the Gospel Doctrine class because there are so many new members. All of these new folks are all fellowshipped by their friends, and we have an outstanding set of sister missionaries working in the ward. In fact, they just transferred one sister out and transferred two more back in to replace her, so there is now a triplet(?) of sister missionaries assigned to the singles ward. I believe that the two new ones are there to gain experience from the one who has been there a long time. We have baptisms in the singles ward every month.

 

The point is, I suppose, that the new converts are gained through prayer and fellowship. The missionaries in our stake don't really do any of the old fashioned tracting. But this is California, and I can't really speak for other areas.

 

WW

I live in the San Joaquin Valley and Robert Packer of the 70 gave the same talk here too for Stake Conf, complete with the slides and going out into the audience.  (It was back in January).  I see what you're saying and I respect his (and yours) opinions, but I think that it sounded way too over-simplistic and rehearsed.  I think that seeing someone at Jamba Juice and giving them a pass-along card is definitely a good thing to do, but remember that many of these people have heard the things that have been spread all over the internet by people like Godmakers, Martin, Decker, Schnoebelen, Hannigraff, etc.  This, and the things mentioned in the President Monson conviction, are usually the first things that come to people's minds when you give them a pass-along card or free BoM, and that's just from my own experience from friends and family.

 

I don't think this is off-topic at all and I think it definitely pertains to this conviction.  If these things could be proven in a court of law the antis are hoping this will be sufficient ammo to keep people from joining the church.  It definitely has a bearing on new converts.  I think if, for example, the Book of Abraham issue was addressed by what the church has published regarding the findings pertaining to what is on the papyri, then it can clear President Monson of hiding this info and prove to potential converts that there is still a chance that Abraham composed a document called "The Book of Abraham" while in Egypt.

 

For instance, the church published a book through one of its subsidiaries called "One Eternal Round" by Hugh Nibley and Michael Rhodes.  In this book the translation of the text in Facsimile 2 was published, along with a defense of Joseph Smith's translation of the hieroglyphics and how it pertains to the Temple.  This proves the church believes Facsimile 2 is what Joseph Smith claimed it to be, and may be a sufficient counter to critics who try to use this issue to keep people from joining the church.

 

More than just a pass-along card, members need to be equipped with the ability to answer questions about the tougher issues.  In that respect, I think only good will come out of this court case.

[Wiki Wonka]

I live in the San Joaquin Valley and Robert Packer of the 70 gave the same talk here too for Stake Conf, complete with the slides and going out into the audience.  (It was back in January).  I see what you're saying and I respect his (and yours) opinions, but I think that it sounded way too over-simplistic and rehearsed.  I think that seeing someone at Jamba Juice and giving them a pass-along card is definitely a good thing to do, but remember that many of these people have heard the things that have been spread all over the internet by people like Godmakers, Martin, Decker, Schnoebelen, Hannigraff, etc.  This, and the things mentioned in the President Monson conviction, are usually the first things that come to people's minds when you give them a pass-along card or free BoM, and that's just from my own experience from friends and family.

 

I don't think this is off-topic at all and I think it definitely pertains to this conviction.  If these things could be proven in a court of law the antis are hoping this will be sufficient ammo to keep people from joining the church.  It definitely has a bearing on new converts.  I think if, for example, the Book of Abraham issue was addressed by what the church has published regarding the findings pertaining to what is on the papyri, then it can clear President Monson of hiding this info and prove to potential converts that there is still a chance that Abraham composed a document called "The Book of Abraham" while in Egypt.

 

For instance, the church published a book through one of its subsidiaries called "One Eternal Round" by Hugh Nibley and Michael Rhodes.  In this book the translation of the text in Facsimile 2 was published, along with a defense of Joseph Smith's translation of the hieroglyphics and how it pertains to the Temple.  This proves the church believes Facsimile 2 is what Joseph Smith claimed it to be, and may be a sufficient counter to critics who try to use this issue to keep people from joining the church.

 

More than just a pass-along card, members need to be equipped with the ability to answer questions about the tougher issues.  In that respect, I think only good will come out of this court case.

 

President Monson conviction???? Jumping ahead a bit?

[sheilauk]

With gratitude for the cogent, helpful legal analysis provided by SheilaUK on this thread, here's another spot in Cyber space where such analysis has taken place (albeit by a Yank ).  I'd be interested to know Sheila's thoughts on it after she's had a chance to review it.  http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fairldsblog+%28FAIR+Blog%29

 

A good article, which sets out matters concisely.

 

(I was already familiar with it, Steve Densley asked for my views and I checked it before publication!)

[Kenngo1969]

A good article, which sets out matters concisely.

 

(I was already familiar with it, Steve Densley asked for my views and I checked it before publication!)

Ahhh, so you worked ahead, as good, well-motivated pupils are wont to do!  Thanks for the input!

[Scott Lloyd]

A good article, which sets out matters concisely.

 

(I was already familiar with it, Steve Densley asked for my views and I checked it before publication!)

You are ubiquitous indeed, Sheila.

[Scott Lloyd]

More than just a pass-along card, members need to be equipped with the ability to answer questions about the tougher issues.  In that respect, I think only good will come out of this court case.

This is true enough, I suppose, but I would hasten to say that for some people, it is not necessary to have every single argument from a critic rebutted conclusively before they can gain a testimony. Some people will get the spiritual witness and, when the occasional criticism crops up, say that they know the restored gospel is true, nevertheless they don't know the meaning of all things.

 

Edited to add:

 

I'm in that category, actually.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

This is true enough, I suppose, but I would hasten to say that for some people, it is not necessary to have every single argument from a critic rebutted conclusively before they can gain a testimony. Some people will get the spiritual witness and, when the occasional criticism crops up, say that they know the restored gospel is true, nevertheless they don't know the meaning of all things.

 

Edited to add:

 

I'm in that category, actually.

I think a lot of us are.  As I have often said, questions about events surrounding the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, as well as about the main characters in the drama, are inevitable.  But doubt and faith are choices.  And when questions crop up, if we listen, the Lord can tell us exactly what He told Oliver Cowdery: "Cast your mind back to the time when you received your spiritual witness. Did I not speak peace to your mind?  What greater witness can you have than from God?"

[Wiki Wonka]

This is true enough, I suppose, but I would hasten to say that for some people, it is not necessary to have every single argument from a critic rebutted conclusively before they can gain a testimony. Some people will get the spiritual witness and, when the occasional criticism crops up, say that they know the restored gospel is true, nevertheless they don't know the meaning of all things.

 

Edited to add:

 

I'm in that category, actually.

 

In the particular case I mentioned, the family that joined after receiving a pass-along card is in my home ward. They joined because they received a spiritual witness after receiving the missionary lessons. They are a very humble family. When I was in the bishopric, I would sometimes go over to the chapel on Thursday night for meetings, and this entire family would be there cleaning the building. We normally assigned people to clean it on Saturdays. I asked them who had asked them to do this, and why were they doing it on Thursdays. They said that nobody asked them - they just wanted to help, so they decided to come over on Thursday evenings and clean the chapel. That's the type of people they are.

[bjw]

President Monson conviction???? Jumping ahead a bit?

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like he had already been convicted, I just thought that under English Law a differentiation had to be made to separate "conviction" from "law suit" in a court trial.  I guess "trial" would be a better word to use.  

[bjw]

This is true enough, I suppose, but I would hasten to say that for some people, it is not necessary to have every single argument from a critic rebutted conclusively before they can gain a testimony. Some people will get the spiritual witness and, when the occasional criticism crops up, say that they know the restored gospel is true, nevertheless they don't know the meaning of all things.

 

Edited to add:

 

I'm in that category, actually.

Me too.  I'm actually glad that I received a strong testimony before learning about a lot of these things, so that later when I would talk to my Bishop and go on FAIR and this board I already had a strong foundation to build on.  It's too bad that with the internet more and more people are learning about the controversies first before they can learn both sides and decide for themselves.  

[Calm]

Criminal charges or summons are better phrases IMO because that is exactly where the case is at right now. It may never get to trial.

[Scott Lloyd]

Me too.  I'm actually glad that I received a strong testimony before learning about a lot of these things, so that later when I would talk to my Bishop and go on FAIR and this board I already had a strong foundation to build on.  It's too bad that with the internet more and more people are learning about the controversies first before they can learn both sides and decide for themselves.  

But Internet access makes them just as able to learn both sides as they are to learn about the controversies in the first place.

 

Which is why I get a bit bewildered when I encounter people who are aware of a controversy but show no evidence of having made the effort to check out the other side.

[frank_jessop]

The fairblog article by the "yankee lawyer" isn't very impressive to me.

[Avatar4321]

The fairblog article by the "yankee lawyer" isn't very impressive to me.

 

What were your issues with it? It seemed to address the issues quite well IMHO

[Kenngo1969]

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like he had already been convicted, I just thought that under English Law a differentiation had to be made to separate "conviction" from "law suit" in a court trial.  I guess "trial" would be a better word to use.  

You're getting warmer.  The case hasn't been set for trial yet (and frankly, I'm hoping the Crown Prosecution Service will take it over, and will let it die the swift (albeit painless) death it deserves).

 

P.S.: To be fair, the idea of private prosecution is all but totally foreign to me, and frankly, I cannot conceive someone laying a criminal complaint and summons against President Thomas S. Monson, so when I first heard of the proceeding, I, like many others, referred to it as a "lawsuit." 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[frank_jessop]

What were your issues with it? It seemed to address the issues quite well IMHO

 

I think it glosses over certain aspects. I will not go into it further. It was not information one could not have learned from news articles on the case.

[Kenngo1969]

The fairblog article by the "yankee lawyer" isn't very impressive to me.

 

What were your issues with it? It seemed to address the issues quite well IMHO

 

Yes, I'd like to know that, myself, Mr. Jessop.

[Kenngo1969]

Me too.  I'm actually glad that I received a strong testimony before learning about a lot of these things, so that later when I would talk to my Bishop and go on FAIR and this board I already had a strong foundation to build on.  It's too bad that with the internet more and more people are learning about the controversies first before they can learn both sides and decide for themselves.  

Ironically, that's how Mormon"Think's" purveyors initially billed the site: as someplace where people could go to get a "balanced look" (supposedly [my words]) at "both sides" (again, my words) of controversial issues relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I think this criminal complaint has put the lie to that bit of attempted salesmanship by sophistry ... forever.

[Kenngo1969]

I think it glosses over certain aspects. I will not go into it further. It was not information one could not have learned from news articles on the case.

Ah, yes, well ... if we're not seeing the same things you apparently are when you read those "news articles on the case," I guess we'll just have to use our imaginations, then, won't we?

[bjw]

Ironically, that's how Mormon"Think's" purveyors initially billed the site: as someplace where people could go to get a "balanced look" (supposedly [my words]) at "both sides" (again, my words) of controversial issues relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I think this criminal complaint has put the lie to that bit of attempted salesmanship by sophistry ... forever.

I remember when I first went on that site and watched a few of their videos, I got the impression that it was ran by current Mormons who were just exploring what critics were saying about the church.  I remember one video saying something like "we as Mormons have been taught not to lie" or something like that, I think it was on one of the Book of Abraham videos.  I think that someone not following the issues would have been given the idea that these were members beginning to have doubts.  

 

Now that they have done this criminal complaint, it should be interesting to see how they market their videos in the future.