Wiki Wonka Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I don't like Tom's tone in those posts Wikiwonka, but wow, you went quote mining. How long did that take! It takes as long as it takes to type the words "Mormon Apocalypse" in the search engine on a particular message board.
frank_jessop Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 In my opinion, the only count that might survive summary argument from a Church representative, who is versed in English law, would be the Book of Abraham. All the others seem too much in the realm of "faith" than in anything reasonably falsifiable - if the other counts were so readily and easily falsifiable then I would think people would be leaving the Church in droves. Of course this is presuming that English courts use the standard "reasonable doubt" or "perponderance of the evidence". Gold Plates - faith basedWhy Joseph Smith was killed - angry mob (I have never heard that the mob attacked because JS would not renounce his faith)6000 year old earth - I do have not been lead to believe the Chruch teaches this, IIRC the Bible Dictionary has a disclaimer. I forget the other counts. I do think the Church takes this matter seriously and isn't flippant or thinks "just another yapping dog". A legal summons is a serious thing, and being a flippant or cavieler about it can have harsh consequences.
Chaos Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 This a very long thread, posts containing nothing but off-topic banter, squabbling, and board nannying are being removed.
BCSpace Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) I want to apologise, for some reason I thought the church had done an essay on the BoA recently, as part of the other essays rolling out. But when I go to the topical guide, I don't even find the Book of Abraham listed. I was correlating that biggy with the recent summons. ETA: Is there a list of all the essays showing what has been done and what is to come? All the 'essays' (Do people call them 'essays' because they don't accept them as doctrine?) do, for the most part, is repeat old information and things the Church has already addressed. In the case of the BoA, for example, there already has been a series of 'essays' and that was LONG ago: TimelineA review of the time-line of the papyri demonstrates that the Church quickly publicized the nature of the JSP in the official magazine of the time, The Improvement Era. There were 11 fragments discovered and given to the church. The Church was very quick in releasing this information to the membership and the world.November 27, 1967 Church receives papyri.December 10–11, 1967 Deadline to submit material for the January 1968 Improvement Era.December 26–31, 1967 January 1968 of Improvement Era issue mailed to subscribers.[1]February 1968 another fragment was discovered in the Church historian's files, and publicized in the February 1968 Era.[2] Publication historyWhen the papyri were rediscovered in the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art and donated to the Church on 27 November 1967, the Church immediately published an article in their official magazine less than two months later. A follow-up article on an additional papyrus fragment was published the following month, complete with photos: Jay M. Todd, "Egyptian Papyri Rediscovered," Improvement Era (January 1968), 12–16. FAIR link Jay M. Todd, "New Light on Joseph Smith's Egyptian Papyri: Additional Fragment Disclosed," Improvement Era (February 1968), 40. Jay M. Todd, "Background of the Church Historian's Fragment," Improvement Era (February 1968), 40A–40I.LDS scholar Hugh Nibley began a series of articles in the January 1968 edition which ran for months. Nibley was not hesitant in explaining what was on the papyri in the Church's possession. In August 1968, he repeatedly emphasized that much of the text was the Egyptian Book of the Dead: "...the texts of the 'Joseph Smith Papyri' identified as belonging to the Book of the Dead" (p. 55) "...The largest part of the Joseph Smith Papyri in the possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the fragments having been recently translated and discussed by no less a scholar than Professor John A. Wilson." (p. 57) "These points can be illustrated by the most easily recognized section of the Joseph Smith papyri, namely, the fragment with the picture of a swallow, Chapter 86 of the Book of the Dead..."(p. 57) "..we may take the best-known picture from the Book of the Dead, the well-known judgment scene or 'Psychostasy,' a fine example of which is found among the Joseph Smith papyri." (p. 59)Lest the reader miss this claim in the small print, it was reprinted in large bold type across two pages: "The largest parts of the...papyri in possession of the Church consists of fragments from the Egyptian Book of the Dead..." (pp. 56-57) See image (680 KB).What was announced?The Improvement Era described the papyri, but never claimed they represented the source for the Book of Abraham, except the original of Facsimile 1:Perhaps no discovery in recent memory is expected to arouse as much widespread interest in the restored gospel as is the recent discovery of some Egyptian papyri, one of which is known to have been used by the prophet Joseph Smith in producing the Book of Abraham.The papyri, long thought to have been burned in the Chicago fire of 1871, were presented to the Church on November 27, 1967, in New York City by the metropolitan Museum of Art, more than a year after Dr. Aziz S. Atiya, former director of the University of Utah's Middle East Center, had made his startling discovery while browsing through the New York museum's papyri collection.Included in the collection of 11 manuscripts is one identified as the original document from which Joseph Smith obtained Facsimile 1, which prefaces the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Accompanying the manuscripts was a letter dated May 26, 1856, signed by both Emma Smith Bidamon, widow of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and their son, Joseph Smith, attesting that the papyri had been the property of the Prophet.Some of the pieces of papyrus apparently include conventional hieroglyphics (sacred inscriptions, resembling picture-drawing) and hieratic (a cursive shorthand version of hieroglyphics) Egyptian funerary texts, which were commonly buried with Egyptian mummies. Often the funerary texts contained passages from the "Book of the Dead," a book that was to assist in the safe passage of the dead person into the spirit world. It is not known at this time whether the ten other pieces of papyri have a direct connection with the Book of Abraham.[3] http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Church_disclosure_of_%22Book_of_the_Dead%22 So basically, the status and explanation of the BoA hasn't changed since 1968. The status of BoA criticism hasn't either and all it has served to accomplish is confirm what the Church has already said. Modern BoA criticism has not 'improved' upon the 'work' of charlatan, rapscallion, and Diploma Mill purveyor Dee Jay Nelson. Edited February 15, 2014 by BCSpace
Kenngo1969 Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) ... PS. Kenngo, are you giving up & conceding my points? (post # 695 );0)No. Unfortunately, my reply to you on that subject has been deemed off-topic banter by the Mods, and, apparently, has been deleted. (It makes me wonder where the hell they were the other night, when California Boy flamed me with impunity and they let his post stand even after I reported it twice and started a separate thread asking them to contact me, all of which were ignored. But, whatever. It's not my Board, and my history of posting for more than ten years on this board and its predecessors apparently doesn't count for much. Oh, well. ) Edited February 15, 2014 by Kenngo1969 1
Calm Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) Yes, I was just saying that I don't think there was a leak or that the British system is corrupt. I simply stated that the church could have known about this case as early as last April.Calmoriah, what's your source for the information that the church was working on the essays 2 years before they started releasing them? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to know more about that. Thanks.I am trying to remember...I have read and discuss them so much narrowing it down may not be easy, so it may take some time.Here is something close in an article about the topics:"The process of creating the new youth curriculum, combined with the overall digital revolution, led some church leaders and staff to consider how LDS.org could be used to design all church instruction for the home and families first, with Sunday instruction as a supplement, Elder Pieper said."This shifted our thinking completely," he added, "and we've been working on that for a year.""http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865592128/LDS-Church-enhances-web-pages-on-its-history-doctrine.html?pg=allBtw, I poorly worded my claim..what I meant was they had been working on the idea, not just the essays themselves.Even if it was just a year in the works that still puts it ahead of Phiilips' project, I believe.From the same article showing that the use of GT in this way fits quite well into the change in teaching emphasis that has been going on for several years, it isn't something created to response to a pending criminal charge that was then made to be retrofitted into another ongoing project."As the church's Communications Services Committee considered the implications of the augmented youth curriculum and upgraded the search capabilities and home page at LDS.org, Elder Pieper said questions arose about where it should provide information on the hottest online topics about the church.Those hot topics sometimes become "sensationalized" attacks on the church's doctrine or history, said Church Historian Steven E. Snow. He said church leaders wanted to help members study those topics and provide them with the best information available."The young people, particularly, they'll get on one site, and they'll say, 'Well, I didn't ever hear that,'" Elder Snow said. "And then that'll lead them to another. And they just keep going. And then there's this credibility issue that begins about, 'What else is the church hiding?' Well, we're not hiding anything. ... I think in this day and age it's become apparent that we really do need to provide a series of answers that will help our members better understand these chapters of our history."That effort dovetailed with the decision to make the Gospel Topics section of LDS.org a focus of church study." Edited February 15, 2014 by calmoriah
Calm Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) The essays themselves at least in one case took a "few months":"We've enlisted the aid of historians, church historians, scholars, church leaders as well as others to work carefully on these matters to make certain we have the facts as right as we know them today," Elder Snow said, "and then to help our members understand them in the context of the time in our history and the time in American history, what was going in the world at the time."It's been a very interesting few months of research and scholarly pursuit as we've been able to clearly research some of these issues and chapters."I would think if the essays were a direct result of the charges there would be a greater correspondence between them. There have been about six new pages IiRC (most of them are featured on the GT front page) and perhaps two may relate. Otoh they are definitely all part of what have been the "hot" topics for awhile. I really think it is a stretch to assume that they are a result of the criminal charges when people have been talking about the need for this kind of stuff for years....it seems strange to me that when it shows up some feel the need to go looking for some other reason as if thevChurch just couldn't be motivated to try and teach their members to be better learners. Edited February 15, 2014 by calmoriah 1
Calm Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 This video discusses the new gospel topics and states they have been working on changes for a couple of years: https://www.lds.org/topics?lang=eng#media=12946461045964721744-eng
why me Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I don't like Tom's tone in those posts Wikiwonka, but wow, you went quote mining. How long did that take!I think that the tone does show a frame of mind and what his real intent is. It has very little to do with revealing what is 'hidden' and more a sense of the 'prophet of destruction'. Tom seems to want to destroy the lds church. But I don't think that he is really that much different than most critics because they would also like to see the lds church collapse. Tom is just being honest. 2
Avatar4321 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 In my opinion, the only count that might survive summary argument from a Church representative, who is versed in English law, would be the Book of Abraham. All the others seem too much in the realm of "faith" than in anything reasonably falsifiable - if the other counts were so readily and easily falsifiable then I would think people would be leaving the Church in droves. Of course this is presuming that English courts use the standard "reasonable doubt" or "perponderance of the evidence". Gold Plates - faith basedWhy Joseph Smith was killed - angry mob (I have never heard that the mob attacked because JS would not renounce his faith)6000 year old earth - I do have not been lead to believe the Chruch teaches this, IIRC the Bible Dictionary has a disclaimer. I forget the other counts. I do think the Church takes this matter seriously and isn't flippant or thinks "just another yapping dog". A legal summons is a serious thing, and being a flippant or cavieler about it can have harsh consequences. But who exactly has argued that we need to pay tithing because of the Book of Abraham? Especially considering we were paying tithing as a Church long before the Book of Abraham becamse part of the canon
Avatar4321 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I think that the tone does show a frame of mind and what his real intent is. It has very little to do with revealing what is 'hidden' and more a sense of the 'prophet of destruction'. Tom seems to want to destroy the lds church. But I don't think that he is really that much different than most critics because they would also like to see the lds church collapse. Tom is just being honest. Then I think we should pray for our brother. Perhaps the Lord will do with him as He did with some others who tried to destroy his Church and bring him back with power.
Kenngo1969 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 If this is true, then why were you the first poster in this thread (801st post) to make such an obvious connection between fraud and Ponzi scheme?If I had the resources, I would do a search of Lexis-Nexus using search terms like Fraud + Ponzi and Fraud NOT Ponzi to see how many results turn up in each category. Alas, I don't. So I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 But who exactly has argued that we need to pay tithing because of the Book of Abraham? Especially considering we were paying tithing as a Church long before the Book of Abraham becamse part of the canon I wondered the same thing. I do not know English law, but one would hope that a guilty finding of fraud would be require atleast a false statement with intent to induce another to act. I could see a legal proceeding finding "Yes, we the reasonable people find the statement of Church X to be false. However, we the reasonable people do not find the false statement was intended to induce the plaintiff to give moneys or other material value to Church X." 1
sheilauk Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Are you suggesting the British system is corrupt and the Church got wind of it through a court officer sharing confidential material?The essays were announced BEFORE October Surprise was shared by Phillips online and have been in production for two years.So how can something begun first be caused by something begun later? Tom Phillips has stated this:"The CPS are aware of it. I reported the matter to the Serious Fraud Office and the police last April, and they are still investigating it. Typically, they take about two years on such a matter. That is why I went the pp [private prosecutor] route. I can't wait that long."If this is true regarding the date and if the church was notified at that time, they've known since last April. Maybe Sheila can let us know if that would be the case. The serious fraud office can take a long time to investigate as large scale fraud, which they are concerned with, is difficult to investigate. I don't know if it would take two years or not. Obviously, if someone makes a complaint to the police, they have to decide first whether or not to investigate and then, at some point, they will have to question the suspect. So, if the SFO did consider it worthwhile investigating, at some point they will approach the Church. How long they would take about that, I don't know. But, the Church could have been aware of an investigation taking place some time after April last year. However, that would not mean that they would be aware that Phillips intended a private prosecution - that information wouldn't have been passed to them. Plus, if a fraud was being undertaken, taking steps to stop it wouldn't stop an investigation or prosecution because there would still have been wrongdoing and the prosecution would cover the appropriate period. BTW I believe that in another interview, Phillips said he didn't know if the CPS knew about the matter or not, but supposed that they did. Also wonder why he can't wait for the SFO and feels he can usurp them. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) ... BTW I believe that in another interview, Phillips said he didn't know if the CPS knew about the matter or not, but supposed that they did. Also wonder why he can't wait for the SFO and feels he can usurp them.You clearly don't understand the gravity of the situation! Millions of innocent, unsuspecting, cluelessly-faithful Church members are sucked dry of tithing money every month by these leeches, and hundreds of thousands more are sucked into the fraud every year! Time is of the essence! If the gears of public justice grind too slowly, the private prosecution mechanism of the UK was designed and intended to allow aggrieved parties to take matters into their own hands! Phillips et al are simply taking a courageous stand for "Truth, Justice, and the American way!" Oops! Sorry! Forgot what jurisdiction we're talking about for a second! Phillips et al are simply taking a courageous stand for "God, Queen, and Country!" Edited February 17, 2014 by Kenngo1969 2
Tiki Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I'm certain Her Majesty will assign James Bond to this right away. 1
cdowis Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Look, Joseph Smith was constantly in court. In fact, when he was in Carthage, he bailed out on the original charge of the destruction of the Expositor, and was re-arrested on the charge of *treason*, since that was not a bailable offense. I suspect that the church lawyers have eaten such court cases for breakfast, just another day at the office.
Kenngo1969 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Look, Joseph Smith was constantly in court. In fact, when he was in Carthage, he bailed out on the original charge of the destruction of the Expositor, and was re-arrested on the charge of *treason*, since that was not a bailable offense. I suspect that the church lawyers have eaten such court cases for breakfast, just another day at the office.One hopes. (I am not, of course, casting any aspersions on legal counsel for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I should do as well ... )
ALarson Posted February 17, 2014 Author Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) An interview with Tom Phillips has been posted online now (it's on "Infants On Thrones"....I'm not at all familiar with that site). I have not listened to it, so I have no comments to add (I will try to get the chance to check it out). Sheila (or anyone else), if you listen to this we'd love your feedback. Here's the link to it:http://infantsonthrones.com/the-summons-tom-phillips-vs-thomas-s-monson-part-1/ Edited February 17, 2014 by ALarson
Kenngo1969 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) With gratitude for the cogent, helpful legal analysis provided by SheilaUK on this thread, here's another spot in Cyber space where such analysis has taken place (albeit by a Yank ). I'd be interested to know Sheila's thoughts on it after she's had a chance to review it. http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fairldsblog+%28FAIR+Blog%29 Edited February 17, 2014 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 An interview with Tom Phillips has been posted online now (it's on "Infants On Thrones"....I'm not at all familiar with that site). I have not listened to it, so I have no comments to add (I will try to get the chance to check it out). Sheila (or anyone else), if you listen to this we'd love your feedback. Here's the link to it:http://infantsonthrones.com/the-summons-tom-phillips-vs-thomas-s-monson-part-1/ With gratitude for the cogent, helpful legal analysis provided by SheilaUK on this thread, here's another spot in Cyber space where such analysis has taken place (albeit by a Yank ). I'd be interested to know Sheila's thoughts on it after she's had a chance to review it. http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fairldsblog+%28FAIR+Blog%29 Wow. Between the homework you're giving her and the homework I'm giving her, she has her work cut out for her. 2
Wiki Wonka Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) With gratitude for the cogent, helpful legal analysis provided by SheilaUK on this thread, here's another spot in Cyber space where such analysis has taken place (albeit by a Yank ). I'd be interested to know Sheila's thoughts on it after she's had a chance to review it. http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fairldsblog+%28FAIR+Blog%29 Just in case folks missed that link to the FairMormon Blog, here it is again: A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse” http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/02/17/a-yankee-lawyers-guide-to-the-mormon-apocalypse/ Edited February 18, 2014 by Wiki Wonka 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I forget the other counts. I do think the Church takes this matter seriously and isn't flippant or thinks "just another yapping dog". A legal summons is a serious thing, and being a flippant or cavieler about it can have harsh consequences.In my comment, I didn't mean to suggest the Church is not taking the matter seriously. Nor do I agree I was being flippant or cavalier. It is possible to take a yapping dog seriously without letting it hinder the caravan or cause the caravan to change course. (Incidentally, I must give Elder McConkie credit for that metaphor, albeit not the precise wording. It is very apt.) Edited February 18, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Wiki Wonka Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) In my comment, I didn't mean to suggest the Church is not taking the matter seriously. Nor do I agree I was being flippant or cavalier. It is possible to take a yapping dog seriously without letting it hinder the caravan or cause the caravan to change course. (Incidentally, I must give Elder McConkie credit for that metaphor. It is very apt.) I'm certain that the Church lawyers take every legal challenge seriously. The Phillips summons is far from the first time that this type of thing has happened. The main difference is that this one got some publicity. Another difference is that Phillips publicly telegraphed his intent (bringing on the "Mormon Apocalypse") for an entire year before filing with the court. A lot of these things are handled without any publicity. Does anyone really believe that this is the first time that someone has attempted to drag a modern General Authority into court? As far as affecting the way the Church does things, it hasn't had any effect (the essays were not a reaction to this). We just finished our stake conference with our area seventy Robert Packer. The entire thing was focused on "Hastening the Work." We are the most successful stake in the area with regard to finding new converts, and our missionaries are "on fire" right now. Nobody I've met is even aware of the Monson summons, except one of the other high councilmen who follows issues related to apologetics, and he is the one that asked me about it. Edited February 18, 2014 by Wiki Wonka 4
Avatar4321 Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I'm certain that the Church lawyers take every legal challenge seriously. The Phillips summons is far from the first time that this type of thing has happened. The main difference is that this one got some publicity. Another difference is that Phillips publicly telegraphed his intent (bringing on the "Mormon Apocalypse") for an entire year before filing with the court. A lot of these things are handled without any publicity. Does anyone really believe that this is the first time that someone has attempted to drag a modern General Authority into court? As far as affecting the way the Church does things, it hasn't had any effect (the essays were not a reaction to this). We just finished our stake conference with our area seventy Robert Packer. The entire thing was focused on "Hastening the Work." We are the most successful stake in the area with regard to finding new converts, and our missionaries are "on fire" right now. Nobody I've met is even aware of the Monson summons, except one of the other high councilmen who follows issues related to apologetics, and he is the one that asked me about it. I am curious how you guys are finding new converts. But that's a topic for another thread. Would you be willing to discuss it?
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