Interesting Article About Mormonism.

[canard78]

The article was terrible. They just come off sounding like a bitter drinker's party where their time is best spent mocking their former faith. And of course mormons do yoga! All sorts of people do yoga. My 60+ year old mormon professor does yoga with his wife, for pete's sake.

 

I was confused by the last quote in the article entirely. It made it seem living LDS was living a facade.

 

The article lost credibility as soon as the yoga comment was made. I thought... ahah... so this is going to be an article full of cliches. It was also incorrect in saying that there are no church sources saying Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.

 

I had mixed feelings on the portrayal of the exmormons and their evangelising. At first I thought, why bother? Move on. Leave it alone. Why give pass-a-long cards to people who haven't asked for it?

 

Then it occurred to me that we are encouraged to exactly the same. We're taught that given we feel we have found an important truth that is valuable and makes our lives better. Is what they are doing any worse?

[BlueDreams]

I had mixed feelings on the portrayal of the exmormons and their evangelising. At first I thought, why bother? Move on. Leave it alone. Why give pass-a-long cards to people who haven't asked for it?

 

Then it occurred to me that we are encouraged to exactly the same. We're taught that given we feel we have found an important truth that is valuable and makes our lives better. Is what they are doing any worse?

 

Yeah it bothered me too though I saw the parallel. The thing is, I don't feel bothered when, say, JW's come to my door. I didn't mind when someone will share their own beliefs about God. I enjoy midnight mass with my Grandma. And would probably take someone up if offered to check out their church. I do get bothered when I get a flyer at my door teaching me the woes of my faith. I was bothered when there was a local church having a special on all the wrongs of the mormons, etc.

 

I think the difference is the focus. It's not positively sharing their new belief structure with another but feeding on the doubts and having their group defined and circle around what they're not anymore. They're defining themselves too heavily by what they're not. The way it was portrayed, with the cards, almost seemed more mocking than anything else and that just isn't kosher. It seems petty more than informative. And kinda sad that they just meet to sit there together, have drinking lessons and step into some mormon taboos, make jabs at their old faith, and feel "free" because they feel they can do whatever pleases them. I hope if I ever left the church I'd have something a little more to show for it than that.   

 

 

With luv,

BD 

[DBMormon]

I am torn - It speaks of an issue that I feel needs to be better addressed and talked openly about and yet in almost every way this article misses the boat.  I found myself angry reading it as I completely understand the anger and bitterness but frustrated by their slanted views that miss the mark on what the Church really is.

[why me]

Perhaps in the same way that ex-[insert religion] "throw out" (your words) the spiritual experiences they had in their previous religion prior to joining the LDS Church?

I am not so sure that people have the kind of spiritual experiences that the lds have. For the lds, it is an experience. It can be a powerful experience. We have countless testimonies of such experiences from people who prayed about the book of mormon. Or who have prayed about the truthfulness of the church. It is not a burning in the bosom kind of experience. It is much more. When one reads about the experiences of the early saints and what they experienced at the hand of the holy ghost is quite amazing.

 

Also, on the catholic site, they seem to mock the 'burning of the bosom' that members of the lds church have. This tends to tell me that the catholics do not have such experiences. If so, why mock such an experience? Also, on other christian sites, the mocking of such experiences are there too. They seem not to understand Paul in the new testament when he writes about such experiences.

Edited February 1, 2014 by why me

[why me]

 

Don't assume that everyone who leaves the church are "taken in by the internet"

I think that they are taken in by critic interpretations of lds history. They are also taken in by the slant of such interpretations. The comments on the webpage seem to confirm this since many of the comments are right out of the anti-lds critic internet handbook.

[why me]

Oh my gosh, Palerider and Coreyb, both such true statements! Bravo, for lack of better words. So much is needed to combat the situation in the church with members feeling lied to and mistrustful. And as far as milk, it's almost like the leaders themselves don't believe or else why do they keep the correlating, to just milk, but I'm pretty sure they believe. They surely understand, "the meat", is a lot of the reason people join the church, don't they?

This is interesting. The lds study all the scriptures and I wouldn't say that they are just learning milk. How often do christian groups study the 'meat'? Do they study the gospels from an historical perspective or basically their interpretation of the scripture? Do other christian groups question the gospels, questioning the assumption that the gospel writers knew exactly what christ said decades after the fact? Or why, if jesus made such an impression, why isn't there accounts of him outside the gospels? All this would be meat for christian groups. But I have a feeling that they ignore such discussions because they are not very faith promoting.

[why me]

I totally understand why that happens, particularly when those spiritual experiences consist of a burning in the bosom that something is "true." Once they discover that something is not what they thought it was, how can they ever trust their bosom detector again? It's completely logical.

 

But these experiences are not the 'burning in the bosom' type of experiences. They are much more. When one reads about the witness that eliza snow received and the spiritual experience that she had after joseph was murdered one can see that it was a spiritual experience. And when her brother lorenzo prayed about the book of mormon, his experiences was a powerful spiritual experience and not a burning of the bosom. So, no need to talk about a 'bosom' detector.

[why me]

I think that we are seeing a new tactic by critics of the lds church and the tactic is simple: to get members to doubt their spiritual experiences that they had in the lds church. To downplay such experiences by equating them with all sort of other experiences where emotion is involved. When I read about the spiritual experiences of members I see more than just a 'feeling' I see an experience, a powerful experience that they had when they prayed about the book of mormon or the truthfulness of the lds church. And yet, some members do buy into what the critics tell them about their spiritual experiences: such experiences are meaningless.

[mormonnewb]

But these experiences are not the 'burning in the bosom' type of experiences. They are much more. When one reads about the witness that eliza snow received and the spiritual experience that she had after joseph was murdered one can see that it was a spiritual experience. And when her brother lorenzo prayed about the book of mormon, his experiences was a powerful spiritual experience and not a burning of the bosom. So, no need to talk about a 'bosom' detector.

Are these experiences typical of the experiences of most members? Because in three years of FT meetings, I've only heard "holy heartburn" stories. Maybe tomorrow will be different.

Edited February 1, 2014 by mormonnewb

[volgadon]

Are these experiences typical of the experiences of most members? Because in three years of FT meetings, I've only heard "holy heartburn" stories. Maybe tomorrow will be different.

 

I'm still curious as to what sort of experience you find trustworthy.

[why me]

Are these experiences typical of the experiences of most members? Because in three years of FT meetings, I've only heard "holy heartburn" stories. Maybe tomorrow will be different.

I think that we are dealing with two things: first, the manifestation of the spirit that members feel at meetings, in member's homes, in prayer etc. Second, we are also dealing with spiritual experiences that one can have when praying about the book of mormon or about the truthfulness of the lds church. Also, when joseph was murdered, his second wife, eliza snow claimed that joseph came to her in a vision because of her grief and told her to keep on living because her work was not done. She kept on living for 40 more years. Or the spiritual experiences of some of the women who agreed to be sealed to joseph only after such spiritual experiences occurred. And then we have the witnesses to the book of mormon. It was a spiritual experience that they could not forget or deny.

 

Also, critics often claim that the lds get a warm fuzzy or they mock the 'burning of the bosom' feeling. Some even call it holy heartburn.

[Kenngo1969]

... I had mixed feelings on the portrayal of the exmormons and their evangelising. At first I thought, why bother? Move on. Leave it alone. Why give pass-a-long cards to people who haven't asked for it?

 

Then it occurred to me that we are encouraged to exactly the same. We're taught that given we feel we have found an important truth that is valuable and makes our lives better. Is what they are doing any worse?

It depends on how one sees the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  If one sees these things as all "pain" and little (if any) "gain," then it's not hard to equate the sort of "evangelizing" that the disaffected who wish to encourage people to shed those burdens with that which members of the Church of Jesus Christ do in proclaiming the Gospel (which, remember, means, "Good News").  If the vessel a person is carrying (which is supposed to represent the Gospel) is empty anyway, why continue to carry it?

 

True, someone may choose to continue to carry an empty vessel in hopes of finding something good to fill it, whether that "something good" is the Living Water of Jesus Christ or something else.)  Often, though, the irreligious seek to convince those who struggle with belief and commitment to discard their vessels when there's still something good in them. President Uchtdorf in last General Conference and Elder Holland in the General Conference previous to that signaled that the Brethren are aware of this challenge.  I struggle plenty.  I believe, but I have trouble "walking it like I talk it."  My vessel isn't as full as I would like it to be: part of the reason for that has to do with my own failings, but a big part of it is simply because that's the nature of mortality.  The disaffected who are quoted in that article would have me believe that my vessel not being full is a good enough reason to chuck it altogether, while my fellow Saints would encourage me that continuing to strive to fill it (and even struggling to do so) is worthwhile.

 

And that's the difference between the "evangelizing" done by the disaffected and the "evangelizing" done by members of the Church of Jesus Christ: the first group, it seems, would have me throw away my vessel just because it isn't as full as I would like it to be, while the second group would encourage my continued (if feeble) efforts to fill it the rest of the way.

[danielwoods]

I am not so sure that people have the kind of spiritual experiences that the lds have. For the lds, it is an experience. It can be a powerful experience. We have countless testimonies of such experiences from people who prayed about the book of mormon. Or who have prayed about the truthfulness of the church. It is not a burning in the bosom kind of experience. It is much more. When one reads about the experiences of the early saints and what they experienced at the hand of the holy ghost is quite amazing.

 

Also, on the catholic site, they seem to mock the 'burning of the bosom' that members of the lds church have. This tends to tell me that the catholics do not have such experiences. If so, why mock such an experience? Also, on other christian sites, the mocking of such experiences are there too. They seem not to understand Paul in the new testament when he writes about such experiences.

 

I strongly disagree with the idea that non-LDS don't have the "kind" of spiritual experiences that are powerful experiences. I think the difference is the focus. Non-LDS don't focus on the truthfulness of any organization or book, rather their focus is on connection with Jesus directly. 

[cinepro]

I think that we are seeing a new tactic by critics of the lds church and the tactic is simple: to get members to doubt their spiritual experiences that they had in the lds church. To downplay such experiences by equating them with all sort of other experiences where emotion is involved. When I read about the spiritual experiences of members I see more than just a 'feeling' I see an experience, a powerful experience that they had when they prayed about the book of mormon or the truthfulness of the lds church. And yet, some members do buy into what the critics tell them about their spiritual experiences: such experiences are meaningless.

 

So, you're accusing some LDS "critics" of treating LDS-specific spiritual experiences the same way LDS (including yourself) treat everyone else's? 

[Stone holm]

In the end it really comes down to a decision to believe regardless of the attacks, most of which are silly, the Church has finally figured out it needs to talk about the ones that aren't. I think sometimes they feel a completely unjustified, but nevertheless real sense of betrayal because they we didn't talk about the facts and the difference between science and religion. The Church in the past has to take some responsibility for that by not reining in the attacks on science and secularism. We created an unnecessary credibility gap, which the Church is now trying to close. Unfortunately, that is going to be very difficult in Utah which is driven by a particular culture that is not helpful, note most of the people cited were living in Utah.

 

We do have posters who are part of Utah.  Ease up on the blanket condemnation.

[Calm]

I have noticed that when significant change occurs within the Church, it spreads quite rapidly in Utah. Besides being on the news, it is openly and widely talked about.

For example, the change in missionary age, had a number of ladies calling to or dropping by the bishop's house the day of the announcement. Humanitarian projects hopscotch across the wards and into other stakes. The density of Utah makes for quick communication even if it also means that percentages yield greater number of anomalies due to greater numbers overall.

[Damien the Leper]

The last year has taught me a great deal about my spiritual experiences both as an LDS member and then during and after my departure. I am grateful to the LDS church because it helped prepare me for my deeper faith in the Orthodox tradition and I have been able to experience God more fully and clearly. Communing with God has never been so fruitful before this. The LDS church paved the way for where God has called me to be.

[ChristKnight]

I am not so sure that people have the kind of spiritual experiences that the lds have. For the lds, it is an experience. It can be a powerful experience. We have countless testimonies of such experiences from people who prayed about the book of mormon. Or who have prayed about the truthfulness of the church. It is not a burning in the bosom kind of experience. It is much more. When one reads about the experiences of the early saints and what they experienced at the hand of the holy ghost is quite amazing.

 

You will find many similar experiences in other religions, inside and outside Christianity. Using Catholicism as an example, many Catholics tell of profound experiences they've had involving the Eucharist. Further, Catholic history tells of many supernatural and spiritual experiences had by many. It is also quite amazing.

This says nor means nothing about the experiences had in the LDS faith, but there is no need to attempt to diminish spiritual experiences had elsewhere (or that people may have to reevaluate their understanding of experiences had in their faith prior to conversion to the LDS faith),, that's all.

[mfbukowski]

You will find many similar experiences in other religions, inside and outside Christianity. Using Catholicism as an example, many Catholics tell of profound experiences they've had involving the Eucharist. Further, Catholic history tells of many supernatural and spiritual experiences had by many. It is also quite amazing.

This says nor means nothing about the experiences had in the LDS faith, but there is no need to attempt to diminish spiritual experiences had elsewhere (or that people may have to reevaluate their understanding of experiences had in their faith prior to conversion to the LDS faith),, that's all.

I think God leads each of us to the best path we are ready for at a given stage of progression in our lives, so any spiritual experience in any faith can be a "true" manifestation of where God wants us to be at any particular time.

[ChristKnight]

I think God leads each of us to the best path we are ready for at a given stage of progression in our lives, so any spiritual experience in any faith can be a "true" manifestation of where God wants us to be at any particular time.

Thanks! It was you that I was channeling in that post.

[why me]

You will find many similar experiences in other religions, inside and outside Christianity. Using Catholicism as an example, many Catholics tell of profound experiences they've had involving the Eucharist. Further, Catholic history tells of many supernatural and spiritual experiences had by many. It is also quite amazing.

This says nor means nothing about the experiences had in the LDS faith, but there is no need to attempt to diminish spiritual experiences had elsewhere (or that people may have to reevaluate their understanding of experiences had in their faith prior to conversion to the LDS faith),, that's all.

However, this is what critics of the lds church are attempting to do with the mormons. According to them, the lds experience is not exceptional. It is rather ordinary. And since that is the case, why trust such experiences because they mean nothing about lds truth claims. I believe that this is what the critics are now attempting to do to lead people away from the lds church.

 

However, I would claim different. The lds spiritual experience is different. Overwhelmingly, the people who prayed about the book of mormon or who have prayed about the truth claims of the lds church have had very powerful spiritual experiences when they have done so. And I think that this is what is unique. Plus, they have also had spiritual experiences while listening to talks, attending meetings, home teaching, visiting teaching etc. And this can be church wide encompassing many members.

 

We are not just talking about a burning of the bosom as is commonly claimed by the critics but unique spiritual experiences and often. That being said, I have no idea why other people in other faiths tend to mock the burning of the bosom experience especially if they are having such experiences too. I would think that they don't and so they mock.

[why me]

So, you're accusing some LDS "critics" of treating LDS-specific spiritual experiences the same way LDS (including yourself) treat everyone else's? 

No. I am claiming that since other christians tend to mock the lds experience on the internet, they must not be having such experiences. I have seen this mocking on catholic sites and other christian protestant sites. Also, the critic logic is this: so what if you received a spiritual witness that the church is true. For after all, such spiritual experiences have also been had by others when they prayed about their own faith. So, why attach any importance to what you experiences. It is meaningless. This is the critic logic.

 

And I have had this repeated to me by quite a few members who have left. Since all people of other faiths have spiritual experiences, what is so special about the lds claim goes the logic.

 

Bottom line: it is not doubt your doubts but doubt your spiritual experiences as a lds.

Edited February 2, 2014 by why me

[why me]

I think God leads each of us to the best path we are ready for at a given stage of progression in our lives, so any spiritual experience in any faith can be a "true" manifestation of where God wants us to be at any particular time.

And what would make the lds spiritual experience special attributing it to the true church?

Edited February 2, 2014 by why me

[PtolemyGlenn]

I guess its hard for me to understand this problem. I don't deny that it is a huge problem, as I have personally witnessed so many disenchanted young people leave the Church. Many of them suffer from spiritual and intellectual malnutrition when it comes to the gospel and church history. I admit it is easy for me to simply blame the member for being casual in their membership, but our Church has not fed them as it/we should have. I was listening earlier today to Gregory Prince on a Mormon stories podcast. He said we talk about milk before meat, and we do a good job at feeding our members milk, but eventually they must eat meat. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of meat in many of our correlated manuals, or in many of the popular books sold at Deseret. Of course meat is tough, and many members may not be interested in it, but there comes a time where you either eat and digest it, or you leave the dinner table still hungry. Like I said, I have a hard time understanding. My Father told me the hard issues at a young age. He showed me the warts in our history, and told me that there were controversies. When I was nine and ten years old I was having a "faith crisis" about the Book of Mormon. I was interested in pre-columbian history and it was hard for me to square what I read in my history book with what the Book of Mormon said. I knew about polygamy, polyandry, masonry, seer stones and hats, magic, treasure digging, DNA, mountain meadows, racism, blood atonement, Book of Mormon authorship theories, changed revelations, post manifesto polygamy etc. all before I was seventeen. I do not say this to make myself out to be a Super-Mormon, because I'm not. I stopped believing in the Church for several years. I say this because i suppose I could be considered an "inoculated" child.  It did lead me out of the Church in spirit for a while, but now that I am back, not much of anything I have learned that is "critical" has had much effect on my testimony (except Adam-God and Book of Abraham, they did for a while). To me it didn't seem like things were hidden from me, so I don't have that distrust Palerider talks about. Now that I have served a mission, and teach young single men, I do see a lack of knowledge about these subjects by a lot of members. Only one other member of my Elders Quorum has read a biography of Joseph Smith! I believe inoculation with knowledge is the answer. It wont be easy, but it will set us Mormons on a firmer foundation of whole truths. This Christmas I gave my sixteen year old brother ( who loves to read) a copy of Rough Stone Rolling because I dont want him to be

blindsided by Joseph Smiths life in a few years. I pray it goes well for him, and hope my descision was right. This is just my story

Whole lot of stuff that I have no idea what your saying.

[Coreyb]

Whole lot of stuff that I have no idea what your saying.

what can I clear up for ya?