Interesting Article About Mormonism.

[why me]

I've never once had a Catholic tell me I need to feel a certain way about anything.

However, have you ever entered a catholic church and felt the spirit there? I have. But it was a feeling of peace and calm. A place where one can escape the turmoil of the outside world. I have not felt that in all churches. But I have felt that in catholic churches. It tells me that people are worshiping god well and that god is pleased and allows the presence of the holy spirit to be there.

 

And as you know, priests do tell members what  they should do to get back to the presence of god. But if catholics don't feel the presence of the holy spirit it would be rather sad. What I don't understand is why catholics on your other board mock the lds experience. This tells me that these poor exmormon catholics or  cradle catholics have not felt the presence of the holy spirit in the catholic church. If they did they would not mock the mormon experience?

[guerreiro9]

I see Calmoriah did a stand in, just say nice things about Utah culture and you will be fine, just remember to pay for your kids lunch tickets....

Stone Holm do you routinely ridicule other states or just Utah?

Why do you feel the need to ridicule any state?

Are the things you find distasteful about Utah also present in other states? If so do you mock them as well, or do you save all your vitriol for the citizens of the beehive state?

-guerreiro9

[why me]

No one can "trigger your testimony but your own readiness to receive it.

I think that we need to remember that I was an investigator. And much can happen to such people. I suppose that I was ready to receive it but it was not easy to pick up the D&C to read it. I was home. No mormons etc and something was preventing me from picking it up. But one day, I fought it and picked up the book and began to read it when it happened. Was I blessed? I sometimes think that I was cursed because of it. It is not possible to deny such an experience even if I wanted to. On saemo's catholic board, they hassled me for claiming to be mormon and catholic. They didn't quite understand it. But how could I ever leave such experiences behind me?

 

I think that Mormonnewb doesn't understand mormon journal writing. When these are uncovered there is much in their about spiritual experiences written for posterity but not necessarily to be shared in public at the time that the experience was written. But what we do have are the journals of the early saints and from personal ancestors that document spiritual experiences because of their church membership.

Edited February 4, 2014 by why me

[mormonnewb]

I suppose you know what its like to be with your wife.

Please tell us all about it. Or are you afraid of being ridiculed? How do I know you really love her ?

Joseph told the facts. I will tell you the facts but facts are not sacred. The feelings which are inexpressible are what is sacred.

I felt a tangible physical force filling my body with light and peace.

Big deal.

That is the fact. But that fact is nothing of importance.

I like the wife analogy except that I'm not trying to get you to come to a "knowledge" of my wife. I'm not asking you to pray to know for yourself that she is "true." Therefore, why I find her still intoxicating after 22 years of marriage is not something that you need to hear. In fact, as your brother in Christ, I will spare you the details so that your own marriage does not begin to suffer by comparison. Hehe

On the other hand, if I was trying to show you how you could also have a deep and fulfilling relationship with MY wife, then I might need to come clean with some details. Otherwise, what reason would have you to "convert" from your current wife? Because Mormonnewb said that he was happy but his joy was too sacred to share?

[why me]

On the other hand, if I was trying to show you how you could also have a deep and fulfilling relationship with MY wife, then I might need to come clean with some details. Otherwise, what reason would have you to "convert" from your current wife? Because Mormonnewb said that he was happy but his joy was too sacred to share?

You keep on saying 'too sacred to share'. I don't think that all mormons are like this or say that. I think that many share in private. Once you get to know them and they become your friend, they will share their experiences to you. But they may not wish to do it always from the pulpit. But some do that as well. You may be just a tad too general in your statement.

[InactiveLDS141]

Howdy all!

I joined the Mormon Church at 28. I was active therein for about three years, then had period of punctuated activity, followed by much longer periods of inactivity. In 2007 I spent a year of spiritual self-examination. In 2008, I formally resigned from the LDS Church and returned to the Catholic Church.

I feel no particular bitterness towards the LDS Church. No special compulsion to mock her members or their spiritual practices. No need to convert or missionize Mormons.

I certainly feel no need to sit at table with other ex-Mormons and receive lessons in how to drink whiskey from LDS Sacrament cups.

I assume the LDS Church, like the RCC, does not encourage family members or friends to shun and/or disown Gay/Lesbian sons or daughters, that the Mormon First Presidency seeks ways to be compassionate towards such without endorsing the 'lifestyle', while affirming the virtue of chastity.

I assume LDS, like traditionalist Catholics, see some spiritual dangers in Eastern metaphysical doctrines such as those which undergird Yoga or Tai Ch'i--yet also recognize that some natural benefits can attain as well.

In short: I feel as if the article was a slam piece in many ways, and am very sorry that y'all were targeted by it.

That's all. Many blessings!

[why me]

Howdy all!

I joined the Mormon Church at 28. I was active therein for about three years, then had period of punctuated activity, followed by much longer periods of inactivity. In 2007 I spent a year of spiritual self-examination. In 2008, I formally resigned from the LDS Church and returned to the Catholic Church.

I feel no particular bitterness towards the LDS Church. No special compulsion to mock her members or their spiritual practices. No need to convert or missionize Mormons.

I certainly feel no need to sit at table with other ex-Mormons and receive lessons in how to drink whiskey from LDS Sacrament cups.

I assume the LDS Church, like the RCC, does not encourage family members or friends to shun and/or disown Gay/Lesbian sons or daughters, that the Mormon First Presidency seeks ways to be compassionate towards such without endorsing the 'lifestyle', while affirming the virtue of chastity.

I assume LDS, like traditionalist Catholics, see some spiritual dangers in Eastern metaphysical doctrines such as those which undergird Yoga or Tai Ch'i--yet also recognize that some natural benefits can attain as well.

In short: I feel as if the article was a slam piece in many ways, and am very sorry that y'all were targeted by it.

That's all. Many blessings!

Thanks for the imput. Glad that you found a home in the catholic church. One question: did you have any spiritual experiences about the book of mormon when you prayed about its truthfulness or about the lds church? And if so, why did you return to the catholic church?

[InactiveLDS141]

I wanted very badly to have a testimony. I had spent five-plus years as a Progressive, in a very liberal college. I was 'reverting' to a more conservative outlook on life, and the values of the LDS Church reverberated with the values I was recapturing for myself, yet without the 'trappings' of Catholicism for which I was not yet ready to renew an appreciation.

I came to view the Book of Mormon as 'inspired' in some purely natural sense, as Shakespeare is inspired, as Rembrandt. Although it was plain to me that the BoM was no masterpiece. I saw it as 'inspired fiction', not on a real par with the Holy Bible. Likewise, I felt the D & C and P of GP to CONTAIN inspiring elements, but also much which was dross. At that point, I felt that desire to believe, that desire for virtue, to be sufficient.

This was some years before several academic Mormons would be removed from positions of influence for holding views rather like those I am describing. Actually, by the time those academics were unseated, my contact with the Church had grown so sporadic that I actually only learned of their stories some years later--from this very board, I do believe.

At various times I sought and resought a true, 'mountaintop' testimony, a true visitation of the Spirit. In my case, the best I could muster was a strong DESIRE to believe, an earnest wish that I could be convinced. Which, based upon Alma's parable of the seed, was (I hoped) enough. Eventually--it was not.

However: I respect the varieties of religious experience which faith encompasses. I was not born to Mormonism and had no close relationships within the Church. I was not in Utah and not submerged in the Mormon culture. I could (and can) see how that makes some difference.

I HAVE HAD mystical experience as a Catholic. Several as a teenager expecting to be called to the priesthood. One as a Charismatic, while in the military in the early 1970's, before Vatican II Catholicism spoiled what I felt the Roman Catholic Experience should be. I drifted away from the RCC during my last two years of military service, then substituted liberal politics for religion for a few years ere slowly drawing back to faith and then to the Catholicism of my youth.Mormonism was for me a resting-place and way-station along my pilgrimage.

[Gervin]

Not once. And the Bible does not say, test the Bible. That's an odd thing to believe.

I sought God's love, and found Jesus Christ.

the answer I was hoping for ...

[saemo]

However, have you ever entered a catholic church and felt the spirit there? I have. But it was a feeling of peace and calm. A place where one can escape the turmoil of the outside world. I have not felt that in all churches. But I have felt that in catholic churches. It tells me that people are worshiping god well and that god is pleased and allows the presence of the holy spirit to be there.

 

And as you know, priests do tell members what  they should do to get back to the presence of god. But if catholics don't feel the presence of the holy spirit it would be rather sad. What I don't understand is why catholics on your other board mock the lds experience. This tells me that these poor exmormon catholics or  cradle catholics have not felt the presence of the holy spirit in the catholic church. If they did they would not mock the mormon experience?

My background is atheism. The most peace I ever felt as a Mormon was the moment the idea came to me that I didn't have to believe in God, at all. One of the happiest days of my life. The same Mormon conditioning you are displaying in this post led me to atheism.

 

 Running on feelings, going where it feels good is not the best advice to give, to anyone.

 

Mormon churches creep me out, by your measurement of feelings that means God is not in your churches. Not what I believe, but that is what your idea of "feeling the spirit" would lead me to believe.

 

 

 

What does the Catholic Church have to say about coming to Christ? It sure isn't about feeling. If it were I would not be Catholic as my first experience at Mass was to sit as close to an exit as I could so I could.get the hell out of there. Churches give me anxiety, not peace. What I learned as a Catholic, from Catholic priests, is that God does not need me to feel a certain way. What I feel as a Catholic is God's love, most profoundly while looking at a crucifix. Mormons find that hard to understand. I need reality, not pie in the sky hippy ideas of if it feels.good, do it. My feelings are not trustworthy, and neither are yours.

Edited February 4, 2014 by saemo

[canard78]

Thanks for the imput. Glad that you found a home in the catholic church. One question: did you have any spiritual experiences about the book of mormon when you prayed about its truthfulness or about the lds church? And if so, why did you return to the catholic church?

I've hesitated to answer this, but will because you keep asking the question.

I have had significant experiences which I consider to be spiritual experiences/interactions with God.

I have had answers to prayers about the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, God's love for me etc. As long as I retain a belief in God I will, I hope, retain a conviction that those answers were divine and not a figment of my imagination or a chemical reaction to brain waves.

But... Despite being confident of having had answers to prayers, I can also see a time when I might stop attending church.

I believe the Book of Mormon to be inspired scripture. I consider Joseph to have been inspired in his other writings.

But I do not consider the belief in those things to demand a belief in all Mormon doctrine. I don't think that our "fullness of the gospel" means we have all the truth available in the world. I believe that our "truth cup" is full as a church. Until we increase the size of our "cup" our "fullness" will be constrained by the size of the cup we use to capture the living waters.

I believe that we have many truths. I also believe that we have some non-truths that partially fill the cup and stop us from being able to get better truths.

So I continue to attend, not because a testimony of the Book of Mormon delivers a testimony of the rest of the doctrine and not because of any belief in this being the best or only "true church."

Instead I continue because attending this church helps me be at my best and helps me be more true to my values and priorities.

The church is a useful vehicle to what I am travelling towards. But if I thought God had guided me towards a better vehicle I'd be comfortable changing to it.

I recognise that certain LDS doctrines don't allow room for this utilitarian approach. That's ok. I recognise that many of my fellow LDS passengers prefer an absolutist view of the world and the church. I don't accept those doctrines but I don't object to the church teaching them to people who embrace them.

[Stone holm]

Stone Holm do you routinely ridicule other states or just Utah?

Why do you feel the need to ridicule any state?

Are the things you find distasteful about Utah also present in other states? If so do you mock them as well, or do you save all your vitriol for the citizens of the beehive state?

-guerreiro9

Yep, I mock my former home State of Indiana a lot as well, and the former Confederate States pretty routinely. But Utah has a special place in my heart, because for most Americans Utah is synonymous with the Church. Outside the Rocky Mountain West, members who were not born in Utah perceive a cultural difference. Sometimes the difference is good, sometimes it is not good.

[Grudunza]

Some of this discussion reminds me of an interview I read a few years ago of Bill W., the co-founder of AA (can't seem to find it now, though, so I'm going by memory and may be fudging some details).  As part of his recovery story, he had a visionary experience vaguely similar to Joseph Smith's, where he was carried up on a mountain and shown some incredible things, which began his finally remaining sober and writing the 12 Steps and all that.  Apparently, over the years many people would express to him how they wanted to have a visionary experience like he did.  He would ask them how long they've been sober... They'd say 8 months, 5 years, 20 days, whatever it was...  And then he'd ask them to think about all of the smaller spiritual experiences they've had over that time, and how much had changed in their lives and the conscious relationship they were developing with their Higher Power, and to realize that those combined smaller spiritual experiences far exceeded the weight and magnitude of his one visionary experience.  Not to mention that his particular vision, being as extraordinary as it was, carried with it a much different kind of responsibility and a much heavier type of personal burden, which most people would not be comfortable carrying.

 

That story reminds me that although I have had a few powerful spiritual experiences over the years, most of them have been small moments... spiritual feelings and reassurances and confirmations... but pieced together they form a very large whole that gives a strong foundation to my testimony and faith.

[CurrentlyAlive]

I wanted a reconfirmation that the church was true. I had already prayed about the book of mormon when I had a spiritual experience about it. I had a confirmation that it was true. It was as if something entered me and gave me the experience of knowing. But I was surrounded by mormons and wanted to be sure that it wasn't coming from a place being surrounded by young adult mormons. So, when I went back home for school break I wanted to try for a reconfirmation and I wanted to read the D&C. It was difficult at first but I went to a private place and began to read and suddenly again something entered me and fulled me knowledge that the church was true. It was strong and powerful and unforgetable. And this is why although I am not the greatest member, I still keep myself somehow with a foot in the church. Not to mention a couple of other spiritual experiences. But it was definitely not a burning of the bosom. I have also felt the presence of the holy spirit in lds people's homes. But that was more a feeling of peace that there was a presence there that could not be seen.

[CurrentlyAlive]

I HAVE HAD mystical experience as a Catholic. Several as a teenager expecting to be called to the priesthood. One as a Charismatic, while in the military in the early 1970's, before Vatican II Catholicism spoiled what I felt the Roman Catholic Experience should be.

[mormonnewb]

Running on feelings, going where it feels good is not the best advice to give, to anyone.

 

....

 

What does the Catholic Church have to say about coming to Christ? It sure isn't about feeling. If it were I would not be Catholic as my first experience at Mass was to sit as close to an exit as I could so I could.get the hell out of there. Churches give me anxiety, not peace. What I learned as a Catholic, from Catholic priests, is that God does not need me to feel a certain way. What I feel as a Catholic is God's love, most profoundly while looking at a crucifix. Mormons find that hard to understand. I need reality, not pie in the sky hippy ideas of if it feels.good, do it. My feelings are not trustworthy, and neither are yours.

Edited February 4, 2014 by mormonnewb

[saemo]

It's interesting that we start from the same assumption but come to exact opposite conclusions.  I agree that my feelings are not trustworthy.  That is precisely why I decided to become an aspiring Mormon (not quite there yet).  I took an empirical look at the Church and came to the conclusion that it meets the two criterion established by Christ: (1) Our love for one another (John 13:35); and (2) The fruit that we bear (Matthew 7:16).

 

Over the years, I've been all over the Christian map -- non-denominational, Baptist, Lutheran, AME, CME (Christmas, Mother's Day and Easter), you name it.  However, I've never encountered a group of Christians who demonstrate more love for one another through acts of selfless service.  Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm not suggesting that Mormons have a monopoly on goodness.  I'm simply pointing out that I have never been part of a group where that goodness is so widespread.  You may have had a different experience than I did, but I've had the good fortune of traveling quite a bit within the Mormon corridor and I've found that my ward family is not atypical in its kindness and service.

 

This is why I push so hard against the emphasis that we place on feelings.  For many, it can be akin to building our house upon the sand, which can be eroded by the pounding waves of turmoil and loss (kind of poetic, huh?).  Feelings (even ones that are strong) can diminish over time.  In fact, this is a good thing.  Otherwise, we would never recover from the heartbreak of a failed relationship.  Over time, our minds reconstruct past feelings to incorporate them into our current circumstances.  That's why basing eternal truth on them can be hazardous.

 

In my view, this is why we see so many people minimize their past spiritual experiences.  It's a healthy human response to a changed circumstances (e.g., they no longer believe all of the Church's truth claims).  However, if we would encourage them to build their faith not upon a feeling but rather upon years of observing the good works of their parents, youth leaders, home teachers, bishops, neighbors and friends, they'd have a much stronger footing in Mormonism.  While there are many things on the Internet that could change how I feel about JS, the BOM and the Church, there is NOTHING that could change what I KNOW about being loved and cared for in this part of the body of Christ.

Eh, well, I was raised in the Mormon church in Utah. Still live in Utah. The ward of my young years (under 12) was as you describe. The ward of my teenage years was cliquish. Snobbish in a lot of ways, which was an eye opener for this blue collar gal. That didn't really affect my "testimony". It was just an eye opener. I BELIEVED that all Mormons were kind and loving, just as we were being taught. Looking back, I think a lot of the "kind and loving" was because my dad was the Bishop, and people were not being themselves around the Bishop or his kids. When we moved, people didn't HAVE to be nice, and they weren't.

 

I then worked for decades in the SLC business world, which is beyond a huge eye opener. Mormon business people are NOT nice people, is all I can say. A veneer of kindness is maintained but I recommend you never experience what is under that veneer.

 

The cynic in me suspects you are being love bombed and will have your own eye opener experience sometime down the road.

 

But, I don't base what I believe by the adherents to that belief. People are people, and strong community can be found anywhere, as well as not. I don't need religion to have a community. I don't see community as a fruit. I see communion with God as important, and my experience is that is elusive in a Mormon framework. Mormons are very individualistic. Something that I find bothersome, that is, not having a sense of a community of God, centered on Christ. Self seems to be the central point of Mormonism. What God does for me. How I feel. "Personal progression" is a huge turn off to my Catholic sense of communion.

 

We all have our journey. God bless you on yours.

Edited February 4, 2014 by saemo

[Stone holm]

Eh, well, I was raised in the Mormon church in Utah. Still live in Utah. The ward of my young years (under 12) was as you describe. The ward of my teenage years was cliquish. Snobbish in a lot of ways, which was an eye opener for this blue collar gal. That didn't really affect my "testimony". It was just an eye opener. I BELIEVED that all Mormons were kind and loving, just as we were being taught. Looking back, I think a lot of the "kind and loving" was because my dad was the Bishop, and people were not being themselves around the Bishop or his kids. When we moved, people didn't HAVE to be nice, and they weren't.

 

I then worked for decades in the SLC business world, which is beyond a huge eye opener. Mormon business people are NOT nice people, is all I can say. A veneer of kindness is maintained but I recommend you never experience what is under that veneer.

 

The cynic in me suspects you are being love bombed and will have your own eye opener experience sometime down the road.

 

But, I don't base what I believe by the adherents to that belief. People are people, and strong community can be found anywhere, as well as not. I don't need religion to have a community. I don't see community as a fruit. I see communion with God as important, and my experience is that is elusive in a Mormon framework. Mormons are very individualistic. Something that I find bothersome, that is, not having a sense of a community of God, centered on Christ. Self seems to be the central point of Mormonism. What God does for me. How I feel. "Personal progression" is a huge turn off to my Catholic sense of communion.

 

We all have our journey. God bless you on yours.

Mormonism can build sense of community, but sometimes our socio-political culture gets in the way.

[why me]

 

 

I then worked for decades in the SLC business world, which is beyond a huge eye opener. Mormon business people are NOT nice people, is all I can say. A veneer of kindness is maintained but I recommend you never experience what is under that veneer.

 

My gosh... such a generalization and such judgmentalism! To include everyone is such a generalization is highly insulting, especially for people who have lds relatives in the business world. To call them all fake is quite a statement. It is rather sad that you are in the frame of mind that you are in. I have seen it on the catholic board too. 

 

I have no idea what your priest would say to such a post as you just wrote.

[why me]

 

The cynic in me suspects you are being love bombed and will have your own eye opener experience sometime down the road.

 

This is something common that is said on the catholic board. But really, I have never seen any love bombing. To show a common love for a brother or a sister in the gospel is not a love bomb. It is only practicing what the early christians practiced: to love each other as brothers and sisters in christ. This is something that greatly influenced the pagans to investigate christianity. They offered a geniune reflection of love.

[why me]

 

What does the Catholic Church have to say about coming to Christ? It sure isn't about feeling. If it were I would not be Catholic as my first experience at Mass was to sit as close to an exit as I could so I could.get the hell out of there. Churches give me anxiety, not peace. What I learned as a Catholic, from Catholic priests, is that God does not need me to feel a certain way. What I feel as a Catholic is God's love, most profoundly while looking at a crucifix. Mormons find that hard to understand. I need reality, not pie in the sky hippy ideas of if it feels.good, do it. My feelings are not trustworthy, and neither are yours.

So, you have never felt the holy spirit at mass? Or his presence when you sat to pray in the catholic cathedral? Sad. God wants you to feel at peace in church and to take the communion with a feeling of love and holiness. I think that most priests would agree with me. How does one feel when they take the communion: they feel closer to god and such is feeling. However you did contradict yourself because when you look at the crucifix you feel love. So what is your problem with feelings?

[saemo]

So, you have never felt the holy spirit at mass? Or his presence when you sat to pray in the catholic cathedral? Sad. God wants you to feel at peace in church and to take the communion with a feeling of love and holiness. I think that most priests would agree with me. How does one feel when they take the communion: they feel closer to god and such is feeling. However you did contradict yourself because when you look at the crucifix you feel love. So what is your problem with feelings?

NOYFB.

 

God, Mormons are snoopy.

 

I'm a little late to the game, but I am removing you for the acronym and language.

[why me]

NOYFB.

 

God, Mormons are snoopy.

You made the admission when you derided the feeling of the spirit. Not me. You seem to be all over the place in your posts. Plus, you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder. Be at peace and post in peace. Why the angst?  Your avatar shows the virgin mary and the baby jesus at peace and in harmony. Think about it a little.

Edited February 4, 2014 by why me

[saemo]

You made the admission when you derided the feeling of the spirit. Not me. You seem to be all over the place in your posts. Plus, you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder. Be at peace and post in peace. Why the angst?

And you just keep on making up crap about me. Insecure much?

Edited February 4, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

This is something common that is said on the catholic board. But really, I have never seen any love bombing. To show a common love for a brother or a sister in the gospel is not a love bomb. It is only practicing what the early christians practiced: to love each other as brothers and sisters in christ. This is something that greatly influenced the pagans to investigate christianity. They offered a geniune reflection of love.

Love bombing = faking love in order to coerce people to believe as you do. Love bombing ends when the person no longer shows interest, or appears to be settled. I imagine it is done subconsciously, not with malice.