Interesting Article About Mormonism.

[escott3564]

It was an interesting read.

One thing in particular that struck me is that there really are two different cultures that are dealt with in the article as one.  There are Utah Mormons and non-Utah Mormons.  The LDS culture in Utah is A LOT different than the LDS culture OUTSIDE of Utah.  I do have empathy for those who have left the Church and are still trying to survive within the state of Utah and have a somewhat "normal" life.  It would be difficult based on the overwhelming hold that the LDS Church has on Utah, in general.  The ex-LDS folks have issues to deal with that ex-LDS folks outside of Utah more than likely won't.  One aspect where I see this most prevalent is in the job market.  For example, if I was to leave the Church tomorrow, it would have absolutely no impact on my job.  The company I work for has no ties to the Church.  As long as I design good software, that's all they care about.  It is this area where I see many folks who no longer believe feeling trapped for fear of losing the means to support themselves and their families.  Frankly, it makes me angry that this is the case.  I can understand it if you are an employee of the Church, itself.  You go into that situation knowing what you are getting into.  If I am not mistaken, if you work for the Church Office Building, you even sign certain materials agreeing to abide by a similar Honor Code that BYU has in place. 

However, if you are an employee of a private company, it really sucks that your change in religion could impact your job.  Of course, since it is illegal to fire someone on the basis of religion, they will come up with some other excuse, but I can see how many ex-LDS folks in the Utah area clearly see a threat there, and it's unfortunate.

What I find kind of stupid is this need for some of these folks to do what could be termed as "ex-LDS missionary work".  Why work so hard to get other people OUT of the Church?  If they are happy as members, let them be.  It is one thing to be a support group for those who are struggling.  It's another thing to try to "de-convert" people.  I also found the using of LDS sacrament cups as shot glasses offensive.  Again, it is one thing to provide positive support to those who are struggling to live a life outside of the Church.  It is another thing entirely to blatantly mock another religion...even if it is a religion you believe to be false.  I don't think that the one guy who was Jewish who participated in the article would take too kindly to a group blatantly mocking a synagog prayer, or some such thing.

Frankly, it is the mocking issue that I have the most problem with when it comes to MDB, and, to an even greater extent, RfM.  Many of the folks there will chastise you for mocking Catholicism or some other religion, but endlessly mock the LDS Church, including the temple ceremony.

I find it interesting that these ex-LDS groups have as great of a need for meetings as they accuse LDS members of having!  LOL  I think it is a little ironic.

Those of us who are outside of Utah do have a clear advantage.  I think that NOMness is MUCH more possible.  More than likely, your next door neighbor isn't the Relief Society President or a member of the Bishopric.  You don't have the feeling of being "watched" when you go to the grocery store and buy a bottle of wine.  BTW, my husband, who is as TBM as it gets, cooks with wine all the time, and we more often than not have an open bottle of either red or white wine in our fridge.

The whole alcohol meeting that they talked about was actually not a bad idea for those who do decide to drink.  However, I am more of a true believer in "moderation in all things".  Personally, I would have found it more helpful to have some sort of a wine tasting where wines and perhaps other types of alcohol are paired with food.  Discuss what goes best with fish, chicken, pasta, pizza, red meat, etc.
 

Edited February 3, 2014 by escott3564

[Stone holm]

It was an interesting read.

One thing in particular that struck me is that there really are two different cultures that are dealt with in the article as one.  There are Utah Mormons and non-Utah Mormons.  The LDS culture in Utah is A LOT different than the LDS culture OUTSIDE of Utah.  I do have empathy for those who have left the Church and are still trying to survive within the state of Utah and have a somewhat "normal" life.  It would be difficult based on the overwhelming hold that the LDS Church has on Utah, in general.  The ex-LDS folks have issues to deal with that ex-LDS folks outside of Utah more than likely won't.  One aspect where I see this most prevalent is in the job market.  For example, if I was to leave the Church tomorrow, it would have absolutely no impact on my job.  The company I work for has no ties to the Church.  As long as I design good software, that's all they care about.  It is this area where I see many folks who no longer believe feeling trapped for fear of losing the means to support themselves and their families.  Frankly, it makes me angry that this is the case.  I can understand it if you are an employee of the Church, itself.  You go into that situation knowing what you are getting into.  If I am not mistaken, if you work for the Church Office Building, you even sign certain materials agreeing to abide by a similar Honor Code that BYU has in place. 

However, if you are an employee of a private company, it really sucks that your change in religion could impact your job.  Of course, since it is illegal to fire someone on the basis of religion, they will come up with some other excuse, but I can see how many ex-LDS folks in the Utah area clearly see a threat there, and it's unfortunate.

What I find kind of stupid is this need for some of these folks to do what could be termed as "ex-LDS missionary work".  Why work so hard to get other people OUT of the Church?  If they are happy as members, let them be.  It is one thing to be a support group for those who are struggling.  It's another thing to try to "de-convert" people.  I also found the using of LDS sacrament cups as shot glasses offensive.  Again, it is one thing to provide positive support to those who are struggling to live a life outside of the Church.  It is another thing entirely to blatantly mock another religion...even if it is a religion you believe to be false.  I don't think that the one guy who was Jewish who participated in the article would take too kindly to a group blatantly mocking a synagog prayer, or some such thing.

Frankly, it is the mocking issue that I have the most problem with when it comes to MDB, and, to an even greater extent, RfM.  Many of the folks there will chastise you for mocking Catholicism or some other religion, but endlessly mock the LDS Church, including the temple ceremony.

I find it interesting that these ex-LDS groups have as great of a need for meetings as they accuse LDS members of having!  LOL  I think it is a little ironic.

Those of us who are outside of Utah do have a clear advantage.  I think that NOMness is MUCH more possible.  More than likely, your next door neighbor isn't the Relief Society President or a member of the Bishopric.  You don't have the feeling of being "watched" when you go to the grocery store and buy a bottle of wine.  BTW, my husband, who is as TBM as it gets, cooks with wine all the time, and we more often than not have an open bottle of either red or white wine in our fridge.

The whole alcohol meeting that they talked about was actually not a bad idea for those who do decide to drink.  However, I am more of a true believer in "moderation in all things".  Personally, I would have found it more helpful to have some sort of a wine tasting where wines and perhaps other types of alcohol are paired with food.  Discuss what goes best with fish, chicken, pasta, pizza, red meat, etc.

Now, now, we know we are not suppose to acknowledge even the possibility that there is a difference in Utah culture, where is Scott Lloyd to call you to repentance.

[why me]

To the question were they liars, no but Emma may have not wanted to tarnish Joseph's reputation. And David and Oliver, may have found they get much from living as a LDS. I know of hundreds that live in the church but are not of it, or don't believe everything about it. Either because it's a good way to live and worship, or for their families.

I think that what you wrote is off the mark. Oliver, David and Martin all had left the church at one point in their lives. But oliver and martin returned. David did not return but he still had one foot in mormonism. He instructed to have his testimony put on his tombstone. All the them, including emma, was in on the process from the beginning. Emma saw the plates on her table covered in cloth and touch the plates through the cloth. She also helped joseph hide the plates. And of course, oliver would not agree to go to england as a missionary if he did not believe in what he saw and did as a younger man. The foundational story of mormonism is quite hard to crack.

[why me]

Only us Mormons will say, "You should believe what I say is true because I've had spiritual experiences that are too sacred to share with you." Replace the term "spiritual experiences" and you will see how arrogant this statement is. It presumes that our experiences are such that everyone else should throw out their experiences ... without even hearing the details of our experiences. But hey, a Mormon has spoken, so the issue is resolved, right?

Mormons do not say what you claim that they do say. What most mormons would say is 'read the book of mormon with a sincere heart and with real intent, and pray it'. I know of no mormon that said what you claim mormons say. Mormons have always told others to pray about the book of mormon with sincerity and an answer will come. And thus, the spiritual experience.

 

At times I wonder just where your view of mormons and mormonism comes from.

[volgadon]

I'm not sure how to answer your question. How do I access the credibility of a saint's "spiritual experience"? I'm not sure it's for me to judge (certainly if its too sacred to share). Likewise, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to presume that it's "of God" since people of all faiths (and the mentally ill) have similar experiences.

If the experience is presented to me with specificity, I will judge it just like any other claim of truth:

Is there physical proof?

Does it jibe with what I currently know/believe about God?

Is the witness otherwise trustworthy?

 

That isn't at all what I was asking.

 

You said this. "Makes sense but how do you know that it's God speaking to you (and not your own wants and desires)? Haven't you ever prayed for guidance on some decision (eg, a job, a marriage, an investment, etc.) and received a "confirmation" that turned out to be dead WRONG?" As it seems that you distrust what you termed "confirmation," then what kind of experience could YOU trust.

[saemo]

Reading the below link I find it rather sad that exmembers seem to have been taken in by the internet. Reading the article I felt as if the exmembers bought the critic interpretations of lds history on the internet hook, line and sinker.

 

I have often wondered how such former mormons just throw out their spiritual experiences when they were members so quickly. How can this be explained?

 

http://mag.newsweek.com/2014/01/31/when-saints-go-marching-out.html

No spiritual experiences as a Mormon to speak of, to throw out, or keep.

[guerreiro9]

Now, now, we know we are not suppose to acknowledge even the possibility that there is a difference in Utah culture, where is Scott Lloyd to call you to repentance.

It has become quite apparent that you have a certain level of distaste for Utah culture. If you really do not then your communication skills leave much to be desired.

You seem to be an active member of the Church. My question to you is how can you be a member of a church that produces such a distasteful culture? The pioneers that settled Utah were from various parts of the country and world. They had no distinctive cohesive culture to begin with. The culture that emerged was the result of them attempting to live the gospel in their environment for the last 167 years (1847 - 2014). If I felt that after 167 years the resulting culture was distasteful I would be running for the exit (by their fruits ye shall know them).

I have said this before and I'll say it again, the only reason Utah culture gets as much criticism as it does is because the members of the church are in the majority.

It has its flaws as every culture does, but by the way it is criticized you would think the church managed to produce the worst culture in the country (may be even the world).

I reject this criticism completely and if you judge Utah culture entirely on its merits I think you will find it does quite well against other regions of the country.

Whatever region you call home its culture would be similar criticized if the church headquarters were located there and members were in the majority.

Get down off your pedestal. You look silly up there and our necks are getting tired.

-guerreiro9

Edited February 3, 2014 by guerreiro9

[mormonnewb]

Mormons do not say what you claim that they do say. What most mormons would say is 'read the book of mormon with a sincere heart and with real intent, and pray it'. I know of no mormon that said what you claim mormons say. Mormons have always told others to pray about the book of mormon with sincerity and an answer will come. And thus, the spiritual experience.

 

At times I wonder just where your view of mormons and mormonism comes from.

 

I've only been a member for about three years so it is likely that I have it wrong but isn't the point of a testimony to provide evidence TO ANOTHER PERSON of some truth of the gospel?  Aren't we saying to that other person, "I know this thing is true.  You should try to find out for yourself"?

 

Or is the purpose of giving a testimony to just reinforce your own belief (without regard to having an impact on the other person)?  If this is the case, then we are ruder than I thought we were because to take up someone else's time for our sole benefit is almost monstrously selfish.  For that reason, I'm going to assume that the purpose of communicating your testimony to another is to somehow bless THEIR lives.

 

In that vein, I've always found it a LITTLE insulting when someone has approached me and said, "I know this thing is true.  I'm not going to tell you why or how I know.  Why should you need an explanation?  Just know that I know it's true and you should pray to see for yourself if it is true."  If someone said that to me in any other context, I would ignore them completely.  "I have an investment that will guarantee you a 30% return every year.  How does it works?  You don't need to know that.  Just know that I know and I suggest you pray on it and find out for yourself.  Hey, where are you going?  Come back here!"

 

And just to be clear, I'm not asking for "certain proof" of a gospel truth.  There is a leap of faith that must be taken in these matters.  But we tend to take lots of leaps that I really don't think are necessary or even helpful (i.e., leaps about specific pieces of information that I'm not sure can be verified, such as who and what Joseph saw in the sacred grove).  And we seem to base our leaps on somewhat unsure footing, such as our feelings (i.e., the burning in the bosom).   And while that is certainly fine for you to do for yourself, it's another thing to ask ME to give credence to your "spider senses."  And if you say, "But I'm not trying to convince you!"  Then why are you telling me about it then?  To hear yourself talk?

 

As for the more substantial "spiritual experiences," I have no way to evaluate them because they are too sacred to share.  We've talked about this in another thread and I'm perfectly fine with that answer.  They are meant for you and you alone.  That's great!  But then you don't need to even allude to them because without any details, they don't do me a bit of good.  And I hope we're in agreement that the point of communication is to impart something useful to the LISTENER and not just to fortify our own knowledge.

 

Interestingly, earlier in this thread, you alluded to spiritual experiences by Eliza Snow and others.  I'm not familiar with them but I assume they are specific experiences (e.g., "I saw a vision of ...", "I heard a voice saying ...").  If someone shares something like that, I will listen to them and evaluate it's credibility accordingly.  However, if their experience is too sacred to be shared, then I simply assume that it's either "too innocuous to be probative" or "too nutty to be believed" because without more, what else could I assume?

[mormonnewb]

That isn't at all what I was asking.

 

You said this. "Makes sense but how do you know that it's God speaking to you (and not your own wants and desires)? Haven't you ever prayed for guidance on some decision (eg, a job, a marriage, an investment, etc.) and received a "confirmation" that turned out to be dead WRONG?" As it seems that you distrust what you termed "confirmation," then what kind of experience could YOU trust.

 

I generally employ a hermeneutic of suspicion when it comes to hearing the voice of God.  I'm always wary that my own desires cloud my senses in this regard; and with good reason.  Also, as mental illness runs in my family (no surprise there), I've witnessed relatives make ruinous decisions upon hearing voices in their head.

 

However, I do believe that HF speaks to His children and that it is possible to hear His voice and to walk with Him.  So when I THINK I'm hearing HF's voice, I first check it against scripture.  That way, I can easily discern that it's just my own sinful desire if the voice in my head is telling me that HF wants me to tell a "little white lie" or look longingly at another woman (after all, she is HF's creation and why not enjoy the beauty that He has bestowed us with?  See how that works).  Even if it does line up with scripture, if it's a big decision, I'll sleep on it, waiting for further prompting.

 

I understand that most members aren't this cautious nor should they be, but I know me enough to know that I'm not to be trusted

[why me]

I've only been a member for about three years so it is likely that I have it wrong but isn't the point of a testimony to provide evidence TO ANOTHER PERSON of some truth of the gospel?  Aren't we saying to that other person, "I know this thing is true.  You should try to find out for yourself"?

What you said in a previous post was: Since I had a spiritual experience that it was true, you should believe in it also. This was the type of comment that i disagreed with. LDS exhort investigators to pray about the book of mormon for themselves to receive a witness. The LDS share their testimony with other members to strengthen the testimony of the other. It has nothing to do with I believe, so you should too.

[why me]

 

Interestingly, earlier in this thread, you alluded to spiritual experiences by Eliza Snow and others.  I'm not familiar with them but I assume they are specific experiences (e.g., "I saw a vision of ...", "I heard a voice saying ...").  If someone shares something like that, I will listen to them and evaluate it's credibility accordingly.  However, if their experience is too sacred to be shared, then I simply assume that it's either "too innocuous to be probative" or "too nutty to be believed" because without more, what else could I assume?

Eliza Snow had a spiritual experience after joseph was murdered. She was in deep morning, wishing to also die because she loved joseph. In her vision she saw joseph who encouraged her to live because her time was not up and that she had work to do yet on this earth. This confirmed her testimony even more. And she lived another 43 years.

 

But she also received a spiritual experience when she prayed about the truthfulness of the lds church before she converted. As have countless other mormons.

 

From Eliza's diary we read, "I was sealed to the prophet, Joseph Smith, for time and eternity in accordance with the celestial law of marriage which God had revealed.... This, one of the most important events of my life, I have never had cause to regret." 

Throughout her life Eliza referred to Joseph as "her first and only love . . . the choice of her heart and the crown of her life." and when Joseph was martyred in 1844 she was so overcome by grief that she could not eat or sleep and even pled with the Lord to allow her to die. It was during this time of grieving that Joseph appeared to her in vision and told her that she must not desire to die. He then explained that her mission on earth was not yet completed and counseled her to be of good cheer and service to those around her.

 

http://lds.about.com/library/weekly/previousyears/aa062699.htm

 

 

“Prove all things and hold fast that which is good” was Eliza’s motto, and when the Prophet Joseph Smith called at her parents’ home during the winter of 1830–31, she had the opportunity to examine firsthand the principles of the gospel as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She wrote in her journal that the Prophet had an “honest face,” and after careful investigation, she was baptized on April 5, 1835. It proved to be the spiritual manifestation she had longed for all her life. She wrote in the “Sketch of My Life”:

“… I realized the baptism of the Spirit as sensibly as I did that of the water in the stream. I had retired to bed, and as I was reflecting on the wonderful events transpiring around me, I felt an indescribable, tangible sensation, if I may so call it, commencing at my head and enveloping my person and passing off at my feet, producing inexpressible happiness. Immediately following, I saw a beautiful candle with an unusual long, bright blaze directly over my feet. I sought to know the interpretation, and received the following: ‘The lamp of intelligence shall be lighted over your path.’ I was satisfied.”⁴

 

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/09/eliza-r-snow-first-lady-of-the-pioneers?lang=eng

Edited February 3, 2014 by why me

[why me]

No spiritual experiences as a Mormon to speak of, to throw out, or keep.

That's unfortunate. But if I remember correctly, you had no love for mormonism or for mormons. This may have influenced the spirit. But I do think that if you would learn to see mormons and mormonism not as your enemy...you may get a different spirit about it all. I can write this because I have read many of your posts on a different board. Sometimes we all need to take a step outside ourselves to see things anew or differently.

 

But what we do have are the testimonies of countless mormons who have had deep spiritual experiences when they prayed about the book of mormon or when they fellowshipped with other latter day saints and in many other circumstances. And this has nothing to do with a 'warm fuzzy' or a 'burning of the bosom' as mocked on other christian boards when it comes to mormon 'feelings'---as I have seen on the catholic board or on CARM.

Edited February 3, 2014 by why me

[mormonnewb]

It has nothing to do with I believe, so you should too.

Sure, it does. Otherwise, there would be no need to bear your own testimony. You could simply say, "Read this book and pray to learn that it is true." However, you preface it with your own belief as a way to validate the likelihood of its truth.

And this makes sense. No one would say, "You should eat at ABC Restaurant. No, I've never tried the food and have no opinion about it one way or the other, but you should check it out. It might be great." Your recommendation would only make sense if accompanied by a witness. You ate their yourself or you've heard or read about someone's positive experience.

However, as Mormons, we assume that this last part isn't necessary. I KNOW the food is good but I don't feel the need to give you any evidence of that fact. We seem to assume that we are such spiritual gourmands that our opinions in this matter should just be accepted outright in much the same way that someone probably wouldn't question Wolfgang Puck about a restaurant recommendation. "Wolfgang recommended we eat here. No, he didn't say why. He doesn't need to ... He's Wolfgang Puck for heaven's sake!"

Well, to paraphrase a famous politician, I've met Wolfgang Puck. He was a friend of mine. And you, why me, are no Wolfgang Puck! Hehe

[mormonnewb]

Eliza Snow had a spiritual experience after joseph was murdered. She was in deep morning, wishing to also die because she loved joseph. In her vision she saw joseph who encouraged her to live because her time was not up and that she had work to do yet on this earth. This confirmed her testimony even more. And she lived another 43 years.

But she also received a spiritual experience when she prayed about the truthfulness of the lds church before she converted. As have countless other mormons.

From Eliza's diary we read, "I was sealed to the prophet, Joseph Smith, for time and eternity in accordance with the celestial law of marriage which God had revealed.... This, one of the most important events of my life, I have never had cause to regret."

Throughout her life Eliza referred to Joseph as "her first and only love . . . the choice of her heart and the crown of her life." and when Joseph was martyred in 1844 she was so overcome by grief that she could not eat or sleep and even pled with the Lord to allow her to die. It was during this time of grieving that Joseph appeared to her in vision and told her that she must not desire to die. He then explained that her mission on earth was not yet completed and counseled her to be of good cheer and service to those around her.

http://lds.about.com/library/weekly/previousyears/aa062699.htm

“Prove all things and hold fast that which is good” was Eliza’s motto, and when the Prophet Joseph Smith called at her parents’ home during the winter of 1830–31, she had the opportunity to examine firsthand the principles of the gospel as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She wrote in her journal that the Prophet had an “honest face,” and after careful investigation, she was baptized on April 5, 1835. It proved to be the spiritual manifestation she had longed for all her life. She wrote in the “Sketch of My Life”:

“… I realized the baptism of the Spirit as sensibly as I did that of the water in the stream. I had retired to bed, and as I was reflecting on the wonderful events transpiring around me, I felt an indescribable, tangible sensation, if I may so call it, commencing at my head and enveloping my person and passing off at my feet, producing inexpressible happiness. Immediately following, I saw a beautiful candle with an unusual long, bright blaze directly over my feet. I sought to know the interpretation, and received the following: ‘The lamp of intelligence shall be lighted over your path.’ I was satisfied.”⁴

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/09/eliza-r-snow-first-lady-of-the-pioneers?lang=eng

This is something more than the "tinglies," but has any Mormon CURRENTLY alive had such an experience? I'm a little skeptical because I've heard testimonies from 200-300 Mormons and not ONE of us has given witness to anything more than bosom burning. So until I meet the "chosen Mormon" who has been authorized to actually give a TESTIMONY ("I saw ...", "I heard ..."), then I will continue to be skeptical that these experiences are anything more than Mormon Memopause (hey, I think I've just coined a new phrase!).

And not because I think my fellow saints are liars. I'm just becoming convinced that none of you really know what one of the experiences are either. How could you? All you've ever been told is, "It's too sacred to share but you'll know it when happens to you." It sounds a little Emperor's New Clothesish to me. Of course, I could be wrong but I'll never know until I run into our chosen one.

So, until that magical day when I meet the Mormon Neo, I'm going to have to side with the Catholics on this one. When they have a spiritual experience of, say, having the Virgin Mary's face appear in a slice of French toast, they'll tell you about it. They'll even SHOW you the slice. You might even get a shot to bid on it on eBay. That beats "too sacred to share " every day of the week ... And twice on Sunday.

[saemo]

That's unfortunate. But if I remember correctly, you had no love for mormonism or for mormons. This may have influenced the spirit. But I do think that if you would learn to see mormons and mormonism not as your enemy...you may get a different spirit about it all. I can write this because I have read many of your posts on a different board. Sometimes we all need to take a step outside ourselves to see things anew or differently.

 

But what we do have are the testimonies of countless mormons who have had deep spiritual experiences when they prayed about the book of mormon or when they fellowshipped with other latter day saints and in many other circumstances. And this has nothing to do with a 'warm fuzzy' or a 'burning of the bosom' as mocked on other christian boards when it comes to mormon 'feelings'---as I have seen on the catholic board or on CARM.

I see people who say they've had an experience. Means nothing to me. What I hear from Mormons are all about emotions, and a religious organization interpreting one's own emotions. You do it here in this very post. Telling me I need to figure out how to have the "right" emotions so that you can interpret them for me as "feeling the spirit".

 

But really, I have no idea what a Mormon means when they say they "feel the spirit". Which emotion is it? Love, excitement, happiness? I don't need to be a Mormon to feel any of those things. Beyond that, seeking a feeling about a book to me is just plain weird (sorry, don't mean to be offensive, but it is weird). Why stop at the Book of Mormon? There are a lot of sacred texts in the world you could pray about, just to see how warm and fuzzy you feel about them. Maybe you should be a Muslim, or a Hindu? Have you tried praying about the Quran or Vitas to know? I doubt it, probably because you have an attitude that needs to be adjust in order to get the right feeling about them.

 

PS: I don't hate Mormons. I hate the pretentious Mormon attitude, which is often displayed by you.

Edited February 3, 2014 by saemo

[why me]

And not because I think my fellow saints are liars. I'm just becoming convinced that none of you really know what one of the experiences are either. How could you? All you've ever been told is, "It's too sacred to share but you'll know it when happens to you." It sounds a little Emperor's New Clothesish to me. Of course, I could be wrong but I'll never know until I run into our chosen one.

 

I know what my experiences have been. And it certainly wasn't a burning of the bosom. Why would I trust such a feeling? My experiences was extremely spiritual but how to describe it? Not easy only because it is difficult to capture it in sentences. And I think that most members feel this way. When I prayed about the book of mormon I had no feeling or warm fuzzy. But I did have a powerful witness of the truth claims of the lds church. But there are no words to describe it. I have also had a spiritual experience when I was told that I was to be given the priesthood. The experience was so powerful that I couldn't talk for several minutes after the bishop told me about it. No burning of the bosom there either. Just the experience. Likewise when I was baptized. I had a spiritual experience. But here is the problem: you will not believe me. Such is the age that we live in.

 

If people who have had members of the lds church who have passed on and they can read their ancestors' journals, would find many spiritual experiences recorded there. And these experiences are just as powerful as Eliza's and yet different.

Edited February 3, 2014 by why me

[why me]

This is something more than the "tinglies," but has any Mormon CURRENTLY alive had such an experience? I'm a little skeptical because I've heard testimonies from 200-300 Mormons and not ONE of us has given witness to anything more than bosom burning. So until I meet the "chosen Mormon" who has been authorized to actually give a TESTIMONY ("I saw ...", "I heard ..."), then I will continue to be skeptical that these experiences are anything more than Mormon Memopause (hey, I think I've just coined a new phrase!).

 

They may use such an expression because they have no other way to express their spiritual experience. I have had spiritual experiences but I cannot describe them adequately. But I would never use the words 'burning of the bosom'. But maybe some do. I am sure that many members on this board have had spiritual experiences that did not contain a burning of the bosom. But how will they describe it...? is the question.

[why me]

 

PS: I don't hate Mormons. I hate the pretentious Mormon attitude, which is often displayed by you.

This is the spirit right from the other board...a spirit that I experienced quite often. You made me homesick. <<<<if you convince the catholic moderator to take me back I will give you a board hug.

[why me]

I see people who say they've had an experience. Means nothing to me. What I hear from Mormons are all about emotions, and a religious organization interpreting one's own emotions. You do it here in this very post. Telling me I need to figure out how to have the "right" emotions so that you can interpret them for me as "feeling the spirit".

I suggested to you to have a different attitude toward mormons and the lds church. Not reason to be so contentious. Mormons are not so bad. And neither is the lds church. The mormon church and the catholic church in salt lake have a very good relationship. There is a spirit of respect which brings peace. Not so bad really when one thinks about it.

And pope francis would not advocate harsh words towards mormons and the lds church.

Edited February 3, 2014 by why me

[saemo]

This is the spirit right from the other board...a spirit that I experienced quite often. You made me homesick. <<<<if you convince the catholic moderator to take me back I will give you a board hug.

 The mods aren't my pals so I have no sway with them. I'm sure they gave you plenty of chances.

 

What spirt is that, "not putting up with why me's crap"?

[saemo]

I suggested to you to have a different attitude toward mormons and the lds church. Not reason to be so contentious. Mormons are not so bad. And neither is the lds church. The mormon church and the catholic church in salt lake have a very good relationship. There is a spirit of respect which brings peace. Not so bad really when one thinks about it.

And pope francis would not advocate harsh words towards mormons and the lds church.

 

Pulling out the "Pope card", from a former Catholic who is posting about his Mormon experiences, is just plain goofy. (Just sayin'.) From a Catholic perspective, anything you experienced is questionable as it removed you from your Catholic faith. So, test the spirits….not something I ever hear from Mormons. Always about, me, me, me and what I feel is right.

 

If you view that as being "contentious", then so be it. You can't pretend to be on board with the Pope while telling us all about how Mormon you are. Doesn't fly.

[CurrentlyAlive]

For me the spiritual experiences in my previous religion were a lead in to the LDS Church, not to be cast aside wholly but incorporated where led by the Spirit. I suspect it is like this for many converts.

 

This is also true for a good number who leave the church.  They don't deny their experiences.  But further experiences lead them to a different understanding.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Now, now, we know we are not suppose to acknowledge even the possibility that there is a difference in Utah culture, where is Scott Lloyd to call you to repentance.

Yet another platitude. Of course there is a difference in Utah culture. There is a difference in WV culture. There is a difference in CA culture. I would hope it was obvious.

[mormonnewb]

They may use such an expression because they have no other way to express their spiritual experience. I have had spiritual experiences but I cannot describe them adequately. But I would never use the words 'burning of the bosom'. But maybe some do. I am sure that many members on this board have had spiritual experiences that did not contain a burning of the bosom. But how will they describe it...? is the question.

The vagaries of these types of experiences might be why people can deny or minimize them afterwards. JS' experience in the grove was so vivid and definitive that he could NOT deny it, even if it cost his life. I believe Paul felt the same way after being blinded (FOR DAYS). On the other hand, If either of them had said, "I just had this feeling. It's not really anything I can describe but it sure felt weird. I was left speechless for like two minutes," it might been something that they could later deny as being truly significant. Just my two cents.

[why me]

 On the other hand, If either of them had said, "I just had this feeling. It's not really anything I can describe but it sure felt weird. I was left speechless for like two minutes," it might been something that they could later deny as being truly significant. Just my two cents.

Did I say 'feeling'? I had no feeling. I had an experience, not a feeling. Here is another example:

 

http://scottwoodward.org/firstvision_edwardstevenson.html

 

The devoted record keeper Edward Stevenson, while also living in Pontiac, heard Joseph speak to the branch of the Church there.

[A]fter the organization of the Pontiac [Michigan] Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of L. D. Saints, in 1834, we had the pleasure of having a visit from the Prophet Joseph Smith: a plain but noble looking man, of large frame and about 6 feet high. With him was his Father, Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris, whose sister Sophia Kellog lived in our settlement.

A great stir was made in this settlement at so distinguised visitors the meetings held were crowded to see and hear the testamonies given which were powerful I will here relate my own experience on the ocaision of a meeting in our old log school House The Prophet stood at a table for the pulpit whare he began relateing his vision and before he got through he was in the midst of the congregation with uplifted hand. I do believe that there was not one person presant who did at the time being or who was not convicted of the truth of his vision, of an Angle to him his countanance seemed to me to assume a heavenly whiteness and his voice was so peirseing and forcible for my part it so impressed me as to become indellibly imprinted in my mind....

The visit of this man of God to our house ... left a lasting remembrance with us and will stand as a witness against those who were so favoured above many.

In that same year, 1834, in the midst of many large congregations, the Prophet testified with great power concerning the visit of the Father and the Son, and the conersation he had with them. Never before did I feel such power as was manifested on these occasions.

(Milton V. Backman, Jr., Joseph Smith's First Vision: Confirming Evidences and Contemporary Accounts, 2d ed. rev., p.179)

 

In that last sentence, I don't think that it was a burning of the bosom but a spiritual experience that was powerful for all present.