Interesting Article About Mormonism.

[why me]

This is also true for a good number who leave the church.  They don't deny their experiences.  But further experiences lead them to a different understanding.

However, it does seem on exmormon boards many are denying their spiritual experiences. There seems an overwhelming comparison to a 'warm fuzzy'. Or something that could be had in many circumstances, a sort of pathos. There is a concerted effort to have the lds doubt their spritual experiences.

[CurrentlyAlive]

I know what my experiences have been. And it certainly wasn't a burning of the bosom. Why would I trust such a feeling? My experiences was extremely spiritual but how to describe it? Not easy only because it is difficult to capture it in sentences. And I think that most members feel this way. When I prayed about the book of mormon I had no feeling or warm fuzzy. But I did have a powerful witness of the truth claims of the lds church. But there are no words to describe it. I have also had a spiritual experience when I was told that I was to be given the priesthood. The experience was so powerful that I couldn't talk for several minutes after the bishop told me about it. No burning of the bosom there either. Just the experience. Likewise when I was baptized. I had a spiritual experience. But here is the problem: you will not believe me. Such is the age that we live in.

 

If people who have had members of the lds church who have passed on and they can read their ancestors' journals, would find many spiritual experiences recorded there. And these experiences are just as powerful as Eliza's and yet different.

 

 

I know you say there are "no words to describe it", but would you please try?  If it is not an emotion, was it a feeling?  A sense of knowing?  Intelligence?  Thoughts?  Light?  Can you please give us some more detail?  It's hard for me to see if your experience is in fact different from those of people in other faiths.

[CurrentlyAlive]

I never did that as a missionary. All I can say is that I have experienced a full range of emotions, but when I felt the Holy Ghost for the first time, I knew it was not emotion. It came from outside of my being, and it was not a burning in the bosom, though I have experienced that since

 

I asked this to why me as well:  Would you please describe your spiritual experience as concretely as possible?

[mormonnewb]

This is something more than the "tinglies," but has any Mormon CURRENTLY alive had such an experience? 

 

Did I say 'feeling'? I had no feeling. I had an experience, not a feeling. Here is another example:

 

http://scottwoodward.org/firstvision_edwardstevenson.html

 

The devoted record keeper Edward Stevenson, while also living in Pontiac, heard Joseph speak to the branch of the Church there.

[A]fter the organization of the Pontiac [Michigan] Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of L. D. Saints, in 1834 ...

 

In answer to my request for a spiritual experience from a living saint, you give me an example from 1834?  Is this guy one of the Three Nephites?

 

Also, you will note that they had this spiritual experience as the result of JS telling them IN DETAIL about the First Vision.  Do you think they would have had this experience had JS said, "I know that this is true because I've had a spiritual experience that was too sacred to share.  Are you getting the tinglies yet?"

 

I'd also like to have an experience like this gentleman had, but it seems that it will require that SOMEONE share their experience with me first.  Bueller?  Anyone?  Bueller?

[CurrentlyAlive]

However, it does seem on exmormon boards many are denying their spiritual experiences. There seems an overwhelming comparison to a 'warm fuzzy'. Or something that could be had in many circumstances, a sort of pathos. There is a concerted effort to have the lds doubt their spritual experiences.

 

That's definitely true for some, but not all.  I would also say that we shouldn't try to get others to deny the spiritual experiences that they have had in their own faiths, or belittle those experiences.  From what I can tell, people really do have very powerful spiritual experiences in all faiths.  Does that mean they are all invalid?  Not necesarily.  But it is hard for me to claim that my spiritual experiences are more valid than theirs, and it's certainly hard to say that people other faiths do not really experience what we have.

In all the threads I've followed on this topic, I very rarely see any concrete examples of the various types of spiritual experiences people have.  If we can examine and compare the firsthand accounts of real experiences, it will be a lot more useful.  I also don't find it helpful when a person claims their experience is too sacred to share.  If you feel that way, I don't fault you, but it doesn't help the discussion.  In any case, the early saints certainly felt fine about sharing their experiences.

 

Here's one person's description of post-mormon spiritual experiences.  He seems to remember his spiritual experiences vividly, but he claims to still have such experiences.

 

"A big part of the problem for me was how to recognize that God did in fact perform a mighty work in my life, brought me to where I felt that I could stand upright before Him, and yet the claims of the church were becoming clearly false. It nearly made me crazy.

...I went online looking for testimonies and found numerous websites that had people just like me from all kinds of religions with experiences just like mine, and some that were just wonderful expressions of what I personally felt that God was really like.

I've served in Bishoprics, been an Elders Q President given blessings to my wife, children and members of the ward. There is no reason to discount those experiences as invalid, despite Brigham Young's teachings on Blood Atonement, Adam as God, Joseph Smith's scriptural difficulties or any number of issues that drive people away from the LDS church.

From visiting various churches since leaving the faith of my fathers, I know that blessings, healings and the satisfaction of doing the Lords work is not unique to any one religion, nor are they less effective than LDS Priesthood blessings and ordinances.

I can never deny the spiritual experiences throughout my life as a member of the LDS church, nor can I deny that they remain outside of it. It would be blasphemous to deny the working of the Spirit in all faiths and in those without faith."

 

I can link to the forum post if you want, but it's on a post-mormon site.

[BlueDreams]

This is something more than the "tinglies," but has any Mormon CURRENTLY alive had such an experience? I'm a little skeptical because I've heard testimonies from 200-300 Mormons and not ONE of us has given witness to anything more than bosom burning. So until I meet the "chosen Mormon" who has been authorized to actually give a TESTIMONY ("I saw ...", "I heard ..."), then I will continue to be skeptical that these experiences are anything more than Mormon Memopause (hey, I think I've just coined a new phrase!).

And not because I think my fellow saints are liars. I'm just becoming convinced that none of you really know what one of the experiences are either. How could you? All you've ever been told is, "It's too sacred to share but you'll know it when happens to you." It sounds a little Emperor's New Clothesish to me. Of course, I could be wrong but I'll never know until I run into our chosen one.

So, until that magical day when I meet the Mormon Neo, I'm going to have to side with the Catholics on this one. When they have a spiritual experience of, say, having the Virgin Mary's face appear in a slice of French toast, they'll tell you about it. They'll even SHOW you the slice. You might even get a shot to bid on it on eBay. That beats "too sacred to share " every day of the week ... And twice on Sunday.

 

In short. Yes, I have had similar experiences to what Eliza Snow mentioned. Considering this is a debate board, I’m not much for sharing them. To the first account, the experience reminded me of a blessing I received once. To the other, that reminded me of receiving my Patr. Blessing. I’ve had others that have been extremely powerful that were not any burning in the bosom. But they’re not common. Nor is the burning for that matter. The most common for me is probably a sense of peace/calm or deeper understanding where things just click into place.   

 

If you want more information about my thoughts about this, you’re welcome to PM me. But these aren’t experiences I generally talk about in public venues…But needless to say, I have never given specifics about any of the ones I’m thinking about over the pulpit, ever. I may have shared one in a class once….if I remember correctly. I haven’t ever mentioned them even vaguely by stating they're too sacred to share, for what it’s worth, either...I usually just state what they might have taught me: that I have worth to God, He's pleased with where I'm at, we're watched over and cared for, the veracity of the Temple, PB, scriptures, etc.

 

With luv,

BD

[Buzzard]

That's definitely true for some, but not all.  I would also say that we shouldn't try to get others to deny the spiritual experiences that they have had in their own faiths, or belittle those experiences.  From what I can tell, people really do have very powerful spiritual experiences in all faiths.  Does that mean they are all invalid?  Not necesarily.  But it is hard for me to claim that my spiritual experiences are more valid than theirs, and it's certainly hard to say that people other faiths do not really experience what we have.

In all the threads I've followed on this topic, I very rarely see any concrete examples of the various types of spiritual experiences people have.  If we can examine and compare the firsthand accounts of real experiences, it will be a lot more useful.  I also don't find it helpful when a person claims their experience is too sacred to share.  If you feel that way, I don't fault you, but it doesn't help the discussion.  In any case, the early saints certainly felt fine about sharing their experiences.

 

Here's one person's description of post-mormon spiritual experiences.  He seems to remember his spiritual experiences vividly, but he claims to still have such experiences.

 

"A big part of the problem for me was how to recognize that God did in fact perform a mighty work in my life, brought me to where I felt that I could stand upright before Him, and yet the claims of the church were becoming clearly false. It nearly made me crazy.

...I went online looking for testimonies and found numerous websites that had people just like me from all kinds of religions with experiences just like mine, and some that were just wonderful expressions of what I personally felt that God was really like.

I've served in Bishoprics, been an Elders Q President given blessings to my wife, children and members of the ward. There is no reason to discount those experiences as invalid, despite Brigham Young's teachings on Blood Atonement, Adam as God, Joseph Smith's scriptural difficulties or any number of issues that drive people away from the LDS church.

From visiting various churches since leaving the faith of my fathers, I know that blessings, healings and the satisfaction of doing the Lords work is not unique to any one religion, nor are they less effective than LDS Priesthood blessings and ordinances.

I can never deny the spiritual experiences throughout my life as a member of the LDS church, nor can I deny that they remain outside of it. It would be blasphemous to deny the working of the Spirit in all faiths and in those without faith."

 

I can link to the forum post if you want, but it's on a post-mormon site.

I am absolutely sure that non-LDS feel the spirit. I can see a young man being prompted by the spirit that Jesus is the Savior of the World, for just one example. There is no reason to deny those feelings. Any feeling that brings us closer to God and our fellow man probably flows from God.  Now if someone came to me and said they were told by the Spirit that Mormonism is a pack of lies, I would not accept that, because I know by my own experiences that it is not. 

You might pounce on this, tell me it is illogical, and that his experience is as valid as mine, but all I can tell you is that I know what I know, and while I am often wrong about a great many things, I am not wrong about that. 

[escott3564]

Now, now, we know we are not suppose to acknowledge even the possibility that there is a difference in Utah culture, where is Scott Lloyd to call you to repentance.

 

LOL!  Really?  Is that in the board rules? 

 

Having lived in Utah, and also living outside of Utah, I think that I can safely say there are differences in LDS culture.  Part of it probably has to do with the fact that here, in NC, we are considered part of the "mission field".  There are not a ton of Church members here.

 

I would seriously be interested in hearing why acknowledging a distinction is such a bad thing to do?  Or rather, why does one might think that there aren't recognizable differences?

[escott3564]

In short. Yes, I have had similar experiences to what Eliza Snow mentioned. Considering this is a debate board, I’m not much for sharing them. To the first account, the experience reminded me of a blessing I received once. To the other, that reminded me of receiving my Patr. Blessing. I’ve had others that have been extremely powerful that were not any burning in the bosom. But they’re not common. Nor is the burning for that matter. The most common for me is probably a sense of peace/calm or deeper understanding where things just click into place.   

 

If you want more information about my thoughts about this, you’re welcome to PM me. But these aren’t experiences I generally talk about in public venues…But needless to say, I have never given specifics about any of the ones I’m thinking about over the pulpit, ever. I may have shared one in a class once….if I remember correctly. I haven’t ever mentioned them even vaguely by stating they're too sacred to share, for what it’s worth, either...I usually just state what they might have taught me: that I have worth to God, He's pleased with where I'm at, we're watched over and cared for, the veracity of the Temple, PB, scriptures, etc.

 

With luv,

BD

Very well, said, BD. 

 

I have also had this type of experience.  It involved a visitation from my now deceased grandmother.  I have actually posted about it on my private website as well as on The World Table.

 

I might post it here if people are interested.  As BD mentioned, for me, anyway, it is not so much "too spiritual" to talk about as it is, just a very personal experience.

[Calm]

 

 

I would seriously be interested in hearing why acknowledging a distinction is such a bad thing to do?  Or rather, why does one might think that there aren't recognizable differences?

Scott has no problem with differences that I know of, it is the consistent posting by some of negative stereotypes about Utah culture as well as the claim that it is somehow monolithic…which in my experience it is not.  It can vary greatly even from block to block where one row of houses has been there since the early or middle 1900's and the next has houses built in the l1990's and 2000's and are building still (I am in such a ward).

[mfbukowski]

This is something more than the "tinglies," but has any Mormon CURRENTLY alive had such an experience? I'm a little skeptical because I've heard testimonies from 200-300 Mormons and not ONE of us has given witness to anything more than bosom burning. So until I meet the "chosen Mormon" who has been authorized to actually give a TESTIMONY ("I saw ...", "I heard ..."), then I will continue to be skeptical that these experiences are anything more than Mormon Memopause (hey, I think I've just coined a new phrase!).

And not because I think my fellow saints are liars. I'm just becoming convinced that none of you really know what one of the experiences are either. How could you? All you've ever been told is, "It's too sacred to share but you'll know it when happens to you." It sounds a little Emperor's New Clothesish to me. Of course, I could be wrong but I'll never know until I run into our chosen one.

So, until that magical day when I meet the Mormon Neo, I'm going to have to side with the Catholics on this one. When they have a spiritual experience of, say, having the Virgin Mary's face appear in a slice of French toast, they'll tell you about it. They'll even SHOW you the slice. You might even get a shot to bid on it on eBay. That beats "too sacred to share " every day of the week ... And twice on Sunday.

Sorry.

No way I am telling.

 

What's in it for me to put it out there to be ridiculed??   Did you think of it that way before?

[mfbukowski]

I see people who say they've had an experience. Means nothing to me. What I hear from Mormons are all about emotions, and a religious organization interpreting one's own emotions.

Ah yes, and being Catholic is "rational", right?

 

Do you really want to go there?

[mfbukowski]

I'd also like to have an experience like this gentleman had, but it seems that it will require that SOMEONE share their experience with me first. 

Why?

 

That's a very strange statement.  You want to parrot someone else's experience?

[saemo]

Ah yes, and being Catholic is "rational", right?

 

Do you really want to go there?

I've never once had a Catholic tell me I need to feel a certain way about anything.

[Gervin]

I've never once had a Catholic tell me I need to feel a certain way about anything.

I do hope, though, that you've had Catholics tell you to pray about the veracity of the Bible as a way of determining if the Bible is true (as described in the Bible you are testing as a means for testing the Bible you are testing)?

[Stone holm]

LOL!  Really?  Is that in the board rules? 

 

Having lived in Utah, and also living outside of Utah, I think that I can safely say there are differences in LDS culture.  Part of it probably has to do with the fact that here, in NC, we are considered part of the "mission field".  There are not a ton of Church members here.

 

I would seriously be interested in hearing why acknowledging a distinction is such a bad thing to do?  Or rather, why does one might think that there aren't recognizable differences?

I see Calmoriah did a stand in, just say nice things about Utah culture and you will be fine, just remember to pay for your kids lunch tickets....

[saemo]

I do hope, though, that you've had Catholics tell you to pray about the veracity of the Bible as a way of determining if the Bible is true (as described in the Bible you are testing as a means for testing the Bible you are testing)?

Not once. And the Bible does not say, test the Bible. That's an odd thing to believe.

I sought God's love, and found Jesus Christ.

Edited February 4, 2014 by saemo

[mormonnewb]

Sorry.

No way I am telling.

What's in it for me to put it out there to be ridiculed?? Did you think of it that way before?

It's a good thing that JS was willing to run the risk of being ridiculed.

[mormonnewb]

Why?

That's a very strange statement. You want to parrot someone else's experience?

No, but JS was able to convert people by boldly telling of his spiritual experiences (eg, "I was visited by the angel Moroni", "I saw two personages," "Hands were laid on our heads and we were anointed to the Melchezidek Priesthood", etc.).

The people who heard these experiences didn't then parrot JS' experiences. Instead, they had their own. But these experiences were not triggered by vague and timid expressions of faith like "I really know this is true, but I can't tell you why because you might ridicule me on a message board."

[djones]

It's quite simple to explain how they can throw it all away. It all comes down to 2 things.

 

1) Our spirits are in constant need of nourishment. It's an eternal principle just like everything else. Think of the strongest animal in the world. A mad elephant or rhino for example. Well, if you take that same incredibly strong animal and you cage it and starve it, it will grow weaker and weaker every day and one day soon it will just die. Our spirits are no different.

 

2) The only way to insure that you won't fall is 1 Nephi 15:24. Unless you are getting daily spiritual nourishment and holding and clinging to the rod of iron, and thirsting after righteousness, the strongest and best of us can be deceived and fall too.

[BlueDreams]

No, but JS was able to convert people by boldly telling of his spiritual experiences (eg, "I was visited by the angel Moroni", "I saw two personages," "Hands were laid on our heads and we were anointed to the Melchezidek Priesthood", etc.).

The people who heard these experiences didn't then parrot JS' experiences. Instead, they had their own. But these experiences were not triggered by vague and timid expressions of faith like "I really know this is true, but I can't tell you why because you might ridicule me on a message board."

 

 

From what I heard from a prof once (so don't CFR me... I can't answer, nor do I have the time to do any massive look-see). Even JS was careful at first about who and when he talked about the First Vision with. Plus it's different. He had a mandate to share. I would love to share, but each time I began to type I felt constrained by the Spirit to not do so. These weren't wide answers for everybody to know. They were personal words of love, hope, and encouragement in such beautiful ways that my soul had strength to move forward in both faith and knowledge.  Telling you the event and the details only go so far. What actually happened wasn't really it. They were beautiful pertinent moment where God whispered "I love you" and "you're my daughter" or "don't worry" in such a beautifully personal and meaningful ways. They came after earnestly seeking and following. They were mercies.

 

In very vague details about the PB. I was a very angry and unhappy child at 14. Cussed like a sailor, pretty volatile, wore dark clothes, was mad with my circumstance and life in general. And I was also beginning to try to seek to be better. I was beginning to read daily, pray more earnestly....I even had a very long music fast, only listening to classical as a way to reorient myself. Still it wasn't easy and I often felt dark. Anger was like peeling off a pernicious second skin. During this I got my PB and while receiving it a peace so tangible and complete came over me that I couldn't even remember how to cuss. I couldn't remember what it felt like to be angry. It was like touching heaven. It was beautiful, like a premonition of what it was like to be whole. I knew my PB was true. It's been my guide and a great strength ever sense. There's more to it, but that is plenty. It isn't the experience, it's the journey. And most of my experiences with the spirit have been so intrinsically for me and myself....so intimate and so well knowing of me and what I need that to share them willy-nilly almost seems crass.

 

Not that they'll never be known. They're all written down. I plan to share em with my kids and people I'm close to. I have before. But some things just aren't meant to be shared in testimony meeting and certainly not a debate board. The experiences are not up for debate. They're not there to challenge any who disagrees or has come to other faiths or lack thereof. They're not to be dissected and worked to find other possible answers for them. They're not even for defense of the pro-mormon side of things. They're meant for me.

 

With luv,

BD

[mfbukowski]

I've never once had a Catholic tell me I need to feel a certain way about anything.

What's your point?  Change the word to Mormon and I would say the same

 

Your picture of the church is so different from mine I don't even recognize it. 

 

But then I have only been a member 34 years, so what do I know.

[mfbukowski]

No, but JS was able to convert people by boldly telling of his spiritual experiences (eg, "I was visited by the angel Moroni", "I saw two personages," "Hands were laid on our heads and we were anointed to the Melchezidek Priesthood", etc.).

The people who heard these experiences didn't then parrot JS' experiences. Instead, they had their own. But these experiences were not triggered by vague and timid expressions of faith like "I really know this is true, but I can't tell you why because you might ridicule me on a message board."

I suppose you know what its like to be with your wife.

 

Please tell us all about it.  Or are you afraid of being ridiculed?  How do I know you really love her ?

 

Joseph told the facts.  I will tell you the facts but facts are not sacred.  The feelings which are inexpressible are what is sacred.

 

I felt a tangible physical force filling my body with light and peace.

 

Big deal.

 

That is the fact.  But that fact is nothing of importance.

Edited February 4, 2014 by mfbukowski

[why me]

I know you say there are "no words to describe it", but would you please try?  If it is not an emotion, was it a feeling?  A sense of knowing?  Intelligence?  Thoughts?  Light?  Can you please give us some more detail?  It's hard for me to see if your experience is in fact different from those of people in other faiths.

I wanted a reconfirmation that the church was true. I had already prayed about the book of mormon when I had a spiritual experience about it. I had a confirmation that it was true. It was as if something entered me and gave me the experience of knowing. But I was surrounded by mormons and wanted to be sure that it wasn't coming from a place being surrounded by young adult mormons. So, when I went back home for school break I wanted to try for a reconfirmation and I wanted to read the D&C. It was difficult at first but I went to a private place and began to read and suddenly again something entered me and fulled me knowledge that the church was true. It was strong and powerful and unforgetable. And this is why although I am not the greatest member, I still keep myself somehow with a foot in the church. Not to mention a couple of other spiritual experiences. But it was definitely not a burning of the bosom. I have also felt the presence of the holy spirit in lds people's homes. But that was more a feeling of peace that there was a presence there that could not be seen.

Edited February 4, 2014 by why me

[mfbukowski]

No one can "trigger your testimony but your own readiness to receive it.