Interesting Article About Mormonism.

[saemo]

My gosh... such a generalization and such judgmentalism! To include everyone is such a generalization is highly insulting, especially for people who have lds relatives in the business world. To call them all fake is quite a statement. It is rather sad that you are in the frame of mind that you are in. I have seen it on the catholic board too. 

 

I have no idea what your priest would say to such a post as you just wrote.

Hey why me, people here who know UT business people already know what I'm talking about. Business ethics is sort of grayish for most. Mormons are no exception. The letter of the law and all that.

Edited February 4, 2014 by saemo

[mfbukowski]

I like the wife analogy except that I'm not trying to get you to come to a "knowledge" of my wife. I'm not asking you to pray to know for yourself that she is "true." Therefore, why I find her still intoxicating after 22 years of marriage is not something that you need to hear. In fact, as your brother in Christ, I will spare you the details so that your own marriage does not begin to suffer by comparison. Hehe

On the other hand, if I was trying to show you how you could also have a deep and fulfilling relationship with MY wife, then I might need to come clean with some details. Otherwise, what reason would have you to "convert" from your current wife? Because Mormonnewb said that he was happy but his joy was too sacred to share?

That was half the post.

 

You missed the point by skipping the rest

[Calm]

NOYFB.

 

God, Mormons are snoopy.

You appear to have the tendency to make generalised statements based on the behaviour of a few on the board. Is there any reason why I should not assume you do the same off the board especially given my own experience does not follow yours very much in any of your descriptions. I have known some Mormon business men who were criminal, others honest to the bone, all of my wards have loved me over the years and I was never anything special though some in those wards were in cliques and others weren't particularly nice.

[why me]

You appear to have the tendency to make generalised statements based on the behaviour of a few on the board. Is there any reason why I should not assume you do the same off the board especially given my own experience does not follow yours very much in any of your descriptions. I have known some Mormon business men who were criminal, others honest to the bone, all of my wards have loved me over the years and I was never anything special though some in those wards were in cliques and others weren't particularly nice.

Which can be said for any organization or church. No one has been disrespectful to saemo. But this poster does carry some baggage about the lds church and about me. I have been in contact with this poster on the catholic board before my ban. How mormons are treated on that board is terrible. And saemo has not been too kind to the lds posters on this thread.

 

Posts dedicated to personal attacks will not be tolerated.  You are out of the thread.

[guerreiro9]

Yep, I mock my former home State of Indiana a lot as well, and the former Confederate States pretty routinely. But Utah has a special place in my heart, because for most Americans Utah is synonymous with the Church. Outside the Rocky Mountain West, members who were not born in Utah perceive a cultural difference. Sometimes the difference is good, sometimes it is not good.

So you mock the West, the Midwest, and the South.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you live in the North East since it seems free from your derision.

I think this mocking dismissive attitude is the primary reason our country is run so inefficiently. Anything different from myself is "other" and therefore worthy of derision.

I think I understand you better and will no longer question your mocking ways, but I do pity you.

-guerreiro9

 

FOR ALL If the personal stuff continues the thread will be closed.

[guerreiro9]

Hey why me, people here who know UT business people already know what I'm talking about. Business ethics is sort of grayish for most. Mormons are no exception. The letter of the law and all that.

Do you think their association with the LDS church made them more unethical? If so what is your basis for that belief?

What would they have been like if they had never been to church?

If you encounter another businessman who you perceive to be unethical and is not a Mormon would you immediately assume that what ever his religion is, is to blame, or do you only assume that with Mormons?

-guerreiro9

[mormonnewb]

Joseph told the facts. I will tell you the facts but facts are not sacred. The feelings which are inexpressible are what is sacred.

I felt a tangible physical force filling my body with light and peace.

Big deal.

That is the fact. But that fact is nothing of importance.

You and I will just have to differ on this point. For me, the important thing about JS' testimony about seeing the angel Moroni is not what JS felt about the experience. It doesn't much matter to me whether he felt filled with light or car sick. What matters is to me are the FACTS -- that an angel appeared, that he was told about the plates, etc.

Now, don't get me wrong. His recitation of the facts does not make them true. However, the facts are the only thing that I can possibly evaluate.

I have to take his word for his feelings but the facts are something that I can evaluate. Are there angels? Have they appeared to other humans? What did the angel say? Did the angel's prophecy come true?

In the end, it will ultimately come down to that leap of faith but evaluating those facts can allow me to take that leap from a firm footing.

[mfbukowski]

You and I will just have to differ on this point. For me, the important thing about JS' testimony about seeing the angel Moroni is not what JS felt about the experience. It doesn't much matter to me whether he felt filled with light or car sick. What matters is to me are the FACTS -- that an angel appeared, that he was told about the plates, etc.

Now, don't get me wrong. His recitation of the facts does not make them true. However, the facts are the only thing that I can possibly evaluate.

I have to take his word for his feelings but the facts are something that I can evaluate. Are there angels? Have they appeared to other humans? What did the angel say? Did the angel's prophecy come true?

In the end, it will ultimately come down to that leap of faith but evaluating those facts can allow me to take that leap from a firm footing.

Ok so I told you my facts.

 

Did it help?

 

What kind of description of facts would help you?

 

I will try again.

 

When they laid their hands on my head and told me to receive the Holy Ghost, it felt like a hot shower inside my whole body or a warm electrical charge animating me from head to toe, starting at the head and moving to my toes, with the sound of rushing wind in my ears and causing tears to flow spontaneously because I felt also a physical sense of peace and love so strong that I knew it was from outside of my and could not be manufactured by my mind.

 

Does that help?

 

Do you have a testimony now?

 

What kind of description would work for you?

 

If every person here wrote that type of description or do you want something more dramatic?  I mean frankly I find "I saw an angel" as totally unbelievable and probably a hallucination.

 

Why would anyone believe such a thing?

Edited February 4, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Even "God and Jesus appeared to me" sounds totally wacky.  I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would believe it.  And the plates?  Come on!!

 

If you haven't felt something yourself, all the words in the world aren't going to do it any more than words can describe the sound of a trumpet to a deaf man.

 

Heck I could make up stuff much better than that!  How about an alien visit or a bigfoot sighting?  How do you evaluate those?

 

At least they are part of the popular culture and they are a dime a dozen- far more likely to be "true" than God appearing to someone

Edited February 4, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mormonnewb]

Even "God and Jesus appeared to me" sounds totally wacky. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would believe it. And the plates? Come on!!

If you haven't felt something yourself, all the words in the world aren't going to do it any more than words can describe the sound of a trumpet to a deaf man.

Heck I could make up stuff much better than that! How about an alien visit or a bigfoot sighting? How do you evaluate those?

At least they are part of the popular culture and they are a dime a dozen- far more likely to be "true" than God appearing to someone

So you're skeptical about the possibility of heavenly visitations, aliens and big feet, but I'm supposed to be convinced because you caught the vapors? How YOU feel about something can have meaning to you. I just can't understand why it should hold any validity to ME. As Mormons, we make up less than 1% of the world's population. Why should I believe you when the other 99% of the people will tell me that they FELT just as strongly that they have the truth?

And, by the way, I do have a testimony about much of the restored gospel, but it is not strengthened by how you FEEL about it. It is strengthened by what I've SEEN and HEARD by way of the fruits of living the gospel. It is strengthen by the FACTS that others testify to on those rare occasions where they give "a reason for their hope" (e.g., "I prayed for guidance and about ABC and HF showed me the answer," "I was dead broke but I tithed anyway and two weeks later, I hit the lottery," "My garments shielded me from gun fire," etc.). None of these are conclusive proof but they are reasons that provide SOME basis for evaluation.

And in truth, the most powerful testimonies are never spoken. The way many saints live their lives provided all the "proof" I needed that there was something to all this Mormon "mumbo jumbo." Compared to that evidence, your testimony of a burning of the bosom is about the weakest case you can make for the truth of the restored gospel because ANYONE can have a strong feeling about something. The real test of truth is how that feeling translates into love and service.

This is the test that Jesus established and I think He might have known a thing or two about truth.

Edited February 5, 2014 by mormonnewb

[saemo]

You appear to have the tendency to make generalised statements based on the behaviour of a few on the board. Is there any reason why I should not assume you do the same off the board especially given my own experience does not follow yours very much in any of your descriptions. I have known some Mormon business men who were criminal, others honest to the bone, all of my wards have loved me over the years and I was never anything special though some in those wards were in cliques and others weren't particularly nice.

I view people here as making generalized statements about me. Guess it all depends on one's perspective.

I relate my experience, the good and the bad. People here 100% of the time focus onto anything that doesn't paint Mormonism in the best light. It is odd. I have no expectations of good being "the thing". Good and bad go together. I think it is naive to have the view that LDS are as a group better at being a community. Better at being kinder. Etc. No one even bothers to tell a non Mormon that these are generalizations about Mormons. But me, I'm making generalizations to say what my experience is.

Wonder what that does to my perception of LDS members? Same old. Same old.

[saemo]

For you Calmoriah, for all the wards I've loved.

The one of my childhood, where everyone was like my aunt, uncle and cousin. The road shows were fun. The charm bracelet I had in primary, with one charm for every article of faith I had memorized, jingled on my wrist all through primary to the great annoyance of the chorister, who told me to take it off. I still have that bracelet.

The ward of my youth, where no one felt like an aunt, uncle or cousin, but where I knew mentors. YW leaders who showed they really cared. I was bullied, not fitting into the right girlie cliques, but that gave me the chance to get to know the adult leaders better. They were all, every one of them, kind, smart and genuinely caring.

The ward of my transition to atheism, which still sent a visiting teacher who would marvel at my clean walls not having child-thrown food all over them. Funny lady. We had absolutely nothing in common but she still cracked me up.

The ward, post atheism....umm, not much went on there. They left me alone, which is what I needed at the time.

My current ward, where no one knows me at all, but the odd visiting teacher shows up now and then. The nice neighbor who gave me a homemade packet, about the history of the ward going back to the pioneer era. It was at one time like the ward of my childhood. Made me a bit homesick, but those days are long, long over.

[mfbukowski]

So you're skeptical about the possibility of heavenly visitations, aliens and big feet, but I'm supposed to be convinced because you caught the vapors? How YOU feel about something can have meaning to you. I just can't understand why it should hold any validity to ME. As Mormons, we make up less than 1% of the world's population. Why should I believe you when the other 99% of the people will tell me that they FELT just as strongly that they have the truth?

And, by the way, I do have a testimony about much of the restored gospel, but it is not strengthened by how you FEEL about it. It is strengthened by what I've SEEN and HEARD by way of the fruits of living the gospel. It is strengthen by the FACTS that others testify to on those rare occasions where they give "a reason for their hope" (e.g., "I prayed for guidance and about ABC and HF showed me the answer," "I was dead broke but I tithed anyway and two weeks later, I hit the lottery," "My garments shielded me from gun fire," etc.). None of these are conclusive proof but they are reasons that provide SOME basis for evaluation.

And in truth, the most powerful testimonies are never spoken. The way many saints live their lives provided all the "proof" I needed that there was something to all this Mormon "mumbo jumbo." Compared to that evidence, your testimony of a burning of the bosom is about the weakest case you can make for the truth of the restored gospel because ANYONE can have a strong feeling about something. The real test of truth is how that feeling translates into love and service.

This is the test that Jesus established and I think He might have known a thing or two about truth.

That first paragraph is so totally ironic it is hard to imagine that you don't see it.

The whole point is that no one else's experience can possibly give you evidence of their truth, but that's exactly what you are asking for.  I have seen a girl cured of cancer, it was there one day and gone the next. That's only one of many miracle which can be doubted if yo didn't experience it yourself.

 

And of course as I knew you would, when I finally shared my experience you ridiculed it despite you insisting that I tell it to you.

 

Of course your testimony is strengthened by what YOU YOURSELF have seen - that's been my point from the beginning.  You don't see it but you make my point for me

 

Good luck on the rest of your journey.  I won't interfere with it anymore.

Edited February 5, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

For you Calmoriah, for all the wards I've loved.

The one of my childhood, where everyone was like my aunt, uncle and cousin. The road shows were fun. The charm bracelet I had in primary, with one charm for every article of faith I had memorized, jingled on my wrist all through primary to the great annoyance of the chorister, who told me to take it off. I still have that bracelet.

The ward of my youth, where no one felt like an aunt, uncle or cousin, but where I knew mentors. YW leaders who showed they really cared. I was bullied, not fitting into the right girlie cliques, but that gave me the chance to get to know the adult leaders better. They were all, every one of them, kind, smart and genuinely caring.

The ward of my transition to atheism, which still sent a visiting teacher who would marvel at my clean walls not having child-thrown food all over them. Funny lady. We had absolutely nothing in common but she still cracked me up.

The ward, post atheism....umm, not much went on there. They left me alone, which is what I needed at the time.

My current ward, where no one knows me at all, but the odd visiting teacher shows up now and then. The nice neighbor who gave me a homemade packet, about the history of the ward going back to the pioneer era. It was at one time like the ward of my childhood. Made me a bit homesick, but those days are long, long over.

I have that very same bracelet for learning my AoF! And some wonderful memories of road shows! I hope the church won't ever get to big or streamlined and hopefully keep those social things going strong!

[KevinG]

Describing a witness of the Holy Ghost as "a burning in the bosom" doesn't do it justice.

 

Lampooning it as "just feelings" or "the vapors" is an intentional insult which instantly leaves me wanting to discount the person who used them as just another run of the mill anti-Mormon.  However- if you really want to discuss the gifts and witnesses of the spirit, along with why we share our testimonies (imperfectly as well as profoundly) you may want to start here:

 

The Holy Ghost

 

Testimony

 

I know Jesus is The Christ because the Holy Spirit testified to me, spoke soul to soul.  Now I in my weak language may try to describe that occurrence resulting in among other things a sensation "as a burning in the bosom", or a gift of knowledge as "having it imprinted on my mind and spirit".

 

You may mock my weakness in describing the sublime and miraculous communing with God.  However it does not diminish the experience I and millions of others have had when receiving a witness of the divinity and saving grace of Christ.

[Senator]

 

When they laid their hands on my head and told me to receive the Holy Ghost, it felt like a hot shower inside my whole body or a warm electrical charge animating me from head to toe, starting at the head and moving to my toes, with the sound of rushing wind in my ears and causing tears to flow spontaneously because I felt also a physical sense of peace and love so strong that I knew it was from outside of my and could not be manufactured by my mind.

 

 

 

I actually appreciate you relating your experience in such detail.

 

I'm envious, as I have never experienced anything comparable.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Reading the below link I find it rather sad that exmembers seem to have been taken in by the internet. Reading the article I felt as if the exmembers bought the critic interpretations of lds history on the internet hook, line and sinker.

 

I have often wondered how such former mormons just throw out their spiritual experiences when they were members so quickly. How can this be explained?

 

http://mag.newsweek.com/2014/01/31/when-saints-go-marching-out.html

The greater the person was when a member...defines how he will behave as an ex-Mormon

[KevinG]

I actually appreciate you relating your experience in such detail.

 

I'm envious, as I have never experienced anything comparable.

 

While some experience very tangible phenomena it is not required to have a testimony.  Sister Hinkley spoke of never having had a singular event where she knew the Church was "true" but rather having a quiet confident knowledge that build slowly through a lifetime of study and service (paraphrasing here).

 

D&C 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

[mfbukowski]

I actually appreciate you relating your experience in such detail.

 

I'm envious, as I have never experienced anything comparable.

Well actually the reason I usually don't is because I have heard this before.

 

What you don't know- and no one but me DOES know is that I am the most skeptical person on the planet, I think.  I doubt everything and everyone.  I am insecure and always looking over my shoulder and expect the worst from everyone.  In short, I am a mess.  My wife loves me for reasons which I find very mysterious.

 

The reality is that I needed to have an experience like this because without it I would never have stayed Mormon.  The other factor was that at the time I had been searching for 25 years - and I don't mean casually.  I read everything on philosophy and theology I could and never believed any of it.  I left Catholicism because I didn't believe it. 

 

So I had a huge experience when I read the BOM and I had this one.  Little tweaks of the spirit here and there since, little "booster shots" but nothing on the order of this type of experience.

 

For some reason I will never know, God gave me these two as my one and only chance and I knew it at the time.  He said- "Ok here it is- believe it now or I will leave you to your own devices".

 

Others get second chances I think, but not me.  It was like "OK if you don't get it now, you are never going to get it!"  He was right of course- it was exactly what I needed, and anything less would not have done it for me.

 

But that's about all I can say about it.  Thanks for your kind words.

[InactiveLDS141]

Would you be willing to share some of these mystical experiences?

The two most notable.

Traditionally, Catholic churches were left open throughout the day for people to pray and meditate. This has become impossible in most cases now but was still normative in the 1960's and '70's. My hometown parish was one which did not experience much change from the 1950's through the 1980's--as if the Sixties and Seventies didn't really happen. So the custom of leaving the church available all day remained in place.

Therefore, I sometimes visited my parish church to pray the Stations Of The Cross and/or the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament or elsewhere in the church. One of my favorite spots was at the back of the church, where a near life-size crucifix was erected, before which was a kneeler and votive candles.

I was praying and meditating upon the Sorrowful Mysteries one day when I had the powerful impressing that I had been transported back to Golgotha: I could hear people murmuring and weeping, feet rustling, some harsher voices which I took to be Roman soldiers, perceived the scent of animals--horses or some such, with which I was familiar as someone raised in the country--and felt something like droplets of moisture on my right wrist and the back of my hand, which I took to be drops of Christ's blood.

I did not Interupt my recitation of the Rosary while this occurred. Opening my eyes caused the perceptions to fade away over several seconds. There was nothing to see in the church, and I was alone at the time. No blood--or any other source of moisture.

Obviously, no horses or animals (I half wondered if I had stepped in something at home, but I was dressed in my school clothes, not something I would have walked about in our hayfield). I finished my Rosary with a sense of peace and closeness to Christ.

I mentioned the experience to my priest, an older and old-school man, who gently and politely asked several questions: was I given to hallucinations? Was I on medication or using intoxicants? Did I imagine myself to have some special 'message' for others or feel myself particularly holy or annointed because of the experience?

The answers to these being negative, the priest advised me to accept my experience as a gift which God sometimes gives to devout people, which I should treasure but not seek out nor attach any special significance to. I should remember that it is virtue and not visions which characterize a Christian.

My next experience I will recount happened while I was in the military, some three or four years later. I was trying to adjust myself to the more 'contemporary' flavor of the Catholic Church in a setting where the Second Vatican Council was being heavily emphasized as license for all kinds of experimentation and novelties. I started going to a Christian coffeehouse--something popularized by the Christian counterculture and which died out on the heels of becoming 'mainstream'. (The thought occurs to me that Mormons would have some trouble linking the concepts of "Christian" and "coffeehouse", but there were other beverages available. Even koolaid, on weekends when bands and performers were present).

The coffeehouse scene was highly Charismatic/Pentecostal, so I began praying to receive 'the gift of the Holy Ghost' with speaking in tongues. I was alone in the prayer room of the coffeehouse, praying for just such an experience, when I had a sense that Jesus was present with me. I could hear the babble of water and perceived (I did not audibly hear) a command to "Drink". I opened my mouth and 'drank', and again had a sense of peace and of the approval of Jesus. After that experience I felt liberated to speak in tongues, and participated for several months in the Catholic Charismatic movement on a nearby base.

This time, when I told the Catholic military chaplain (a much younger priest who had cut his teeth in the Vatican II era), he scoffed, suggested that I experienced what I did out of wishful thinking, suggested I take a break from praying so much, warned me I might end up needing a psychologist if I kept experiencing such things. He himself was part of the Catholic Charismatic movement and--in public--spoke glibly of the gifts of tongues and of healings.

However, he was, like a lot of priests of that era, really quite skeptical and cynical, more a cultural Catholic than one who believed the things he said. His attitude eventually made me uncomfortable about what the RCC was becoming. (Rumor drifted back, btw, that this priest eventually left the chaplaincy AND the priesthood--not surprising if true, but not something I could confirm).

This second priest's attitude, and just the desire as a young adult to branch out and experience more than just the religious world I had cocooned myself within led me to drift away from the Church and, while in college, to be quite a skeptic and questioner. After college, and a more settled phase of adulthood, I sought out faith again, first through the LDS Church, and ultimately moving back to the Faith of my Fathers.

Hope this was interesting.

[Tacenda]

Sure was, InactiveLDS141!!

[flameburns623]

The two most notable.Traditionally, Catholic churches were left open throughout the day for people to pray and meditate. This has become impossible in most cases now but was still normative in the 1960's and '70's. My hometown parish was one which did not experience much change from the 1950's through the 1980's--as if the Sixties and Seventies didn't really happen. So the custom of leaving the church available all day remained in place.Therefore, I sometimes visited my parish church to pray the Stations Of The Cross and/or the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament or elsewhere in the church. One of my favorite spots was at the back of the church, where a near life-size crucifix was erected, before which was a kneeler and votive candles.I was praying and meditating upon the Sorrowful Mysteries one day when I had the powerful impressing that I had been transported back to Golgotha: I could hear people murmuring and weeping, feet rustling, some harsher voices which I took to be Roman soldiers, perceived the scent of animals--horses or some such, with which I was familiar as someone raised in the country--and felt something like droplets of moisture on my right wrist and the back of my hand, which I took to be drops of Christ's blood.I did not Interupt my recitation of the Rosary while this occurred. Opening my eyes caused the perceptions to fade away over several seconds. There was nothing to see in the church, and I was alone at the time. No blood--or any other source of moisture.Obviously, no horses or animals (I half wondered if I had stepped in something at home, but I was dressed in my school clothes, not something I would have walked about in our hayfield). I finished my Rosary with a sense of peace and closeness to Christ.I mentioned the experience to my priest, an older and old-school man, who gently and politely asked several questions: was I given to hallucinations? Was I on medication or using intoxicants? Did I imagine myself to have some special 'message' for others or feel myself particularly holy or annointed because of the experience?The answers to these being negative, the priest advised me to accept my experience as a gift which God sometimes gives to devout people, which I should treasure but not seek out nor attach any special significance to. I should remember that it is virtue and not visions which characterize a Christian.My next experience I will recount happened while I was in the military, some three or four years later. I was trying to adjust myself to the more 'contemporary' flavor of the Catholic Church in a setting where the Second Vatican Council was being heavily emphasized as license for all kinds of experimentation and novelties. I started going to a Christian coffeehouse--something popularized by the Christian counterculture and which died out on the heels of becoming 'mainstream'. (The thought occurs to me that Mormons would have some trouble linking the concepts of "Christian" and "coffeehouse", but there were other beverages available. Even koolaid, on weekends when bands and performers were present).The coffeehouse scene was highly Charismatic/Pentecostal, so I began praying to receive 'the gift of the Holy Ghost' with speaking in tongues. I was alone in the prayer room of the coffeehouse, praying for just such an experience, when I had a sense that Jesus was present with me. I could hear the babble of water and perceived (I did not audibly hear) a command to "Drink". I opened my mouth and 'drank', and again had a sense of peace and of the approval of Jesus. After that experience I felt liberated to speak in tongues, and participated for several months in the Catholic Charismatic movement on a nearby base.This time, when I told the Catholic military chaplain (a much younger priest who had cut his teeth in the Vatican II era), he scoffed, suggested that I experienced what I did out of wishful thinking, suggested I take a break from praying so much, warned me I might end up needing a psychologist if I kept experiencing such things. He himself was part of the Catholic Charismatic movement and--in public--spoke glibly of the gifts of tongues and of healings.However, he was, like a lot of priests of that era, really quite skeptical and cynical, more a cultural Catholic than one who believed the things he said. His attitude eventually made me uncomfortable about what the RCC was becoming. (Rumor drifted back, btw, that this priest eventually left the chaplaincy AND the priesthood--not surprising if true, but not something I could confirm).This second priest's attitude, and just the desire as a young adult to branch out and experience more than just the religious world I had cocooned myself within led me to drift away from the Church and, while in college, to be quite a skeptic and questioner. After college, and a more settled phase of adulthood, I sought out faith again, first through the LDS Church, and ultimately moving back to the Faith of my Fathers.Hope this was interesting.

This was me posting under an old identity which I did not even realize I had created. Thanks to moderators for assisting me to access my 'real' account. Obviously I will NOT utilize "InactiveLDS141" any longer.