Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

[Stone holm]

It's a logical theory, but unfortunately, that's not what the text says.  Alma 3:6-7 is very clear as to whom it affected.  It was the original sons of Lehi and company who received the initial curse, not mixed races from mixing with natives.

 

"the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their 

rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women".

 

 

I just don't see how the text can be clearer as to whom it affected.  We don't need to understand it all, other than it happened to the initial sons of Lehi, not mixed races.

Wow, do we really want to travel down that road to support the B of M? Just saying I don't think that is an argument that the Brethren would want us to pursue anymore, not that I am very good at listening to the Brethren.

[thesometimesaint]

Wow, do we really want to travel down that road to support the B of M? Just saying I don't think that is an argument that the Brethren would want us to pursue anymore, not that I am very good at listening to the Brethren.

 

I pay real close attention to what they say: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/race-church

[ERayR]

Fact 1. The human race is 6013 yrs old. 4000bc + 2013ad = 6013ad. Fact 2 When the Jaradites came to The Americas after the flood they were the only ones here. Fact 3 When Lehi came to the Americas they were the only ones here. Later on the Mulekites followed. Fact 4 All Native Americans(pre Columbus or Gentile invasion) in the Americas are descendants of the Lamanites. Thus there are no 24,000 yr old bones(bogus science). There was no land bridge(bogus science theory). There were no Asians present in the Americas when Jared and Lehi came to the Americas.

 

OKaaaaaaayyyyy

[ERayR]

1. The human race is between 250,000 years old and 200,000 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

 

2. Man has been in the Americas for about 50,000 years.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041118104010.htm

 

 

 

Okaaaayyyyy

[brightpath]

Science is mans theory. Remember Gods ways are not mans ways and mans ways are not Gods ways. One of you asked where did I get my time line. In a little old book I was reading with my daughter the other night. The illustrated BofM for kids, check it out. I was born and raised in the church, graduated seminary, went on a mission, attended BYU, and held many callings in the church and have lived in 5 different countries. I have never heard of members agreeing with science and blindfully believing that the human race is older than 4000BC or more than 6000 yrs old! Now those of you saying there were Asians here in America do not understand the BofM.

[brightpath]

Show me where in the Book of Mormon it talks about others?

[brightpath]

You are entitled to believe any fiction you choose. [/quote

You can go ahead and believe science! I will follow the teachings of the prophets, scriptures, and most of all God.

[Stone holm]

You are entitled to believe any fiction you choose. [/quote

You can go ahead and believe science! I will follow the teachings of the prophets, scriptures, and most of all God.

That works, if you are really good at understanding the latter and don't cherry pick. On the other hand, if you are not so good at that you may wind up simply applying your own ignorance.

[cdowis]

Show me where in the Book of Mormon it talks about others?

 

There are several threads on this but 1 Ne 18: 25 is the most direct reference.  I would expect that you will be able to figure it out yourself --a bull cannot castrate itself, for example

[katherine the great]

 I was born and raised in the church, graduated seminary, went on a mission, attended BYU, and held many callings in the church and have lived in 5 different countries. I have never heard of members agreeing with science and blindfully believing that the human race is older than 4000BC or more than 6000 yrs old! Now those of you saying there were Asians here in America do not understand the BofM.

I also went on a mission, attended BYU and have held many leadership callings in the church.  Attitudes are changing my dear.  It is possible to be a faithful LDS member and embrace science--including the antiquity of the human race and even human evolution.  I take my spiritual counsel from the brethren and scriptures, but like President Hinckley said, "Leave Geology, Biology, Archaeology, and Anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research."  I'm an Archaeologist and an Anthropologist, so our late prophet has left this issue in my hands and I say that there have been human beings in the Americas for at least 15,000 years--probably many more.

[JAHS]

Show me where in the Book of Mormon it talks about others?

The antichrist Sherem (Jacob 7) for example. Jacob wrote of him, "there came a man among the people of Nephi" (Jacob 7:1). Does this mean that he was not a Nephite? Jacob further notes "that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people" (Jacob 7:4). Don't all native speakers? This would have been remarkable only if the man were not a Nephite.

At the time of Sherem's visit, the entire population of Nephites decended from Lehi could not have exceded a hundred adults. Any Nephite among such a small population would not have been a stranger. So if he was not a Nephite where did he come from?

[cdowis]

  I'm an Archaeologist and an Anthropologist, so our late prophet has left this issue in my hands and I say that there have been human beings in the Americas for at least 15,000 years--probably many more.

 

 

I also live and feel comfortable in the "dual worlds" -- science and religion.  But this requires a careful separation ("chinese wall") of those two worlds.  For example, when someone says that bones that are 15kya are "too early" for the Book of Mormon people, that violates that chinese wall.  Not only are you throwing out the Book of Mormon people, but also Adam.  So the argument, in the context of our discussion, would make no sense.  

 

Unless we are trying to reconcile the story of Adam with science. 

[katherine the great]

I also live and feel comfortable in the "dual worlds" -- science and religion.  But this requires a careful separation ("chinese wall") of those two worlds.  For example, when someone says that bones that are 15kya are "too early" for the Book of Mormon people, that violates that chinese wall.  Not only are you throwing out the Book of Mormon people, but also Adam.  So the argument, in the context of our discussion, would make no sense.  

 

Unless we are trying to reconcile the story of Adam with science. 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.  There is no reconciliation for the story of Adam and science if the story of Adam is interpreted in a literal sense under the paradigm of a six thousand year old human species.

[cdowis]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.  There is no reconciliation for the story of Adam and science if the story of Adam is interpreted in a literal sense under the paradigm of a six thousand year old human species.

 

I guess I do not possess your same confidence that they cannot be reconciled.  I think we are missing some critical pieces of the puzzle, but that's just me.

[katherine the great]

I do not possess your same confidence that they cannot be reconciled.

Can you explain?  Do you believe that fully modern humans have only existed as a species for less than 10,000 years?  If so then you cannot factor science in to your world view.  If not and you believe that Adam was not the first physical man on the planet then he can't really be the genetic father of everyone who has ever lived on the planet.  Mathematically, perhaps everyone who lives on the planet now, but certainly not in antiquity.

[Stone holm]

Can you explain?  Do you believe that fully modern humans have only existed as a species for less than 10,000 years?  If so then you cannot factor science in to your world view.  If not and you believe that Adam was not the first physical man on the planet then he can't really be the genetic father of everyone who has ever lived on the planet.  Mathematically, perhaps everyone who lives on the planet now, but certainly not in antiquity.

 

Depends -- 10,000 years since put in the Garden? No cannot be reconciled.   Since ejected from the Garden? Depends on your definition of fully modern -- probably still cannot be but if you play with say 50,000 maybe.

[katherine the great]

-- probably still cannot be but if you play with say 50,000 maybe.

Except that Adam was a farmer and his son was a shepherd.

[Stone holm]

Except that Adam was a farmer and his son was a shepherd.

Adam was a farmer?

[katherine the great]

Adam was a farmer?

According to scripture yes. At the very least a horticulturalist.

[brightpath]

I also went on a mission, attended BYU and have held many leadership callings in the church.  Attitudes are changing my dear.  It is possible to be a faithful LDS member and embrace science--including the antiquity of the human race and even human evolution.  I take my spiritual counsel from the brethren and scriptures, but like President Hinckley said, "Leave Geology, Biology, Archaeology, and Anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research."  I'm an Archaeologist and an Anthropologist, so our late prophet has left this issue in my hands and I say that there have been human beings in the Americas for at least 15,000 years--probably many more.

I dont think I will put my trust in man and you to figure out the age of the human race. Science is an ememy to God. So Hinckley stated that he will leave science alone and leave it up tp them. Nonsense!

[brightpath]

There are several threads on this but 1 Ne 18: 25 is the most direct reference.  I would expect that you will be able to figure it out yourself --a bull cannot castrate itself, for example

Nephi is explaining in this scripture that God put all these resources on the promised land for his use and the use of his people. The phrase use of men is referring to Him and his people. it's a bif stretch to think that it is referring to other people. No way

[brightpath]

The antichrist Sherem (Jacob 7) for example. Jacob wrote of him, "there came a man among the people of Nephi" (Jacob 7:1). Does this mean that he was not a Nephite? Jacob further notes "that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people" (Jacob 7:4). Don't all native speakers? This would have been remarkable only if the man were not a Nephite.

At the time of Sherem's visit, the entire population of Nephites decended from Lehi could not have exceded a hundred adults. Any Nephite among such a small population would not have been a stranger. So if he was not a Nephite where did he come from?

You assume 100 adults. The populations was bigger than that. Sherem had a perfect knowledge of the language meaning he was one of them, a Nephite! If the Nephites were such a small population like you said then how could an outside person learn and perfect the Nephite language which was hebrew. The name Sherem you need to take into account too. If this was an outsider aka asian(many people on this board like to believe there were asians present), then why wasn't his name Ming or Gangus. The truth is Sherem was a Nephite antichrist and had a perfect knowledge of the language(Nephite language) to lead them away from the truth. No Asian could do this.

[cdowis]

Can you explain?  Do you believe that fully modern humans have only existed as a species for less than 10,000 years?  If so then you cannot factor science in to your world view.  If not and you believe that Adam was not the first physical man on the planet then he can't really be the genetic father of everyone who has ever lived on the planet.  Mathematically, perhaps everyone who lives on the planet now, but certainly not in antiquity.

 

No, I can't.  And, Katherine, can we assume that you are aware that evolutionists have many issues and questions which they are unable to address, but they are confident that those issues will eventually be resolved. 

 

So, what exactly is your point?

[blooit]

You assume 100 adults. The populations was bigger than that. Sherem had a perfect knowledge of the language meaning he was one of them, a Nephite! If the Nephites were such a small population like you said then how could an outside person learn and perfect the Nephite language which was hebrew. The name Sherem you need to take into account too. If this was an outsider aka asian(many people on this board like to believe there were asians present), then why wasn't his name Ming or Gangus. The truth is Sherem was a Nephite antichrist and had a perfect knowledge of the language(Nephite language) to lead them away from the truth. No Asian could do this.

Hmmm… I don't think so.  Here is this guy that apparently shows up from (somewhere).  The author feels the need to mention that he has a perfect knowledge of the language - to me suggesting he is an outsider but speaks the language VERY well.  His name follows the patterns of the Jaredites - a lot of Ks, SHs, and Rs & Ms.  I think the indication is pretty strong that this is a Jaredite immigrant.

[Calm]

Science is an ememy to God. 

I take it then you don't use computers, don't go to doctors or dentists and use medicine, don't drive cars, don't shop for food but hunt and gather and generally don't do any of those things that have come about through science because partaking of them would be giving into the enemy of God.