Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

[katherine the great]

On the other hand, If Sometimes Saint is saying what I think he is saying, in the absence of the subgroup of the haplotypes, I think it's a reasonable possibility.

[Calm]

The elephant in the room that is rarely addresses in any of these BoM DNA discussions is the curse brought on the Lamanites, which if we believe Moroni, is all that is left... no unaltered Nephite DNA.  Whatever genetic changes the Lord made, so that all subsequent seed had the same curse or change, is unknown.

Isn't this assuming that God changed all the DNA and not just that relating to skin colour?  If the identified markers for a population don't have to do with skin colour genes, wouldn't they still be present.

 

Perhaps you are only saying other genes may have been changed but if we don't what was changed, we can't know if the relevant DNA marker found in the original population would be found in the descendant, but cursed one.

[Calm]

Don't you mean the other way around, since Noah left from what is now the Americas...

If one believes in a global flood, doesn't one generally believe that the entire world was populated before the Flood since IIRC it describes mankind as covering the face of the earth or some such thing at that time, so much the same usage as interpreted as a global flood.

[Calm]

Is this more thrashing about to find enough proof so that it will ease our lack of faith?

Katherine is just making a joke...she hasn't posted much if at all since you joined so you are not familiar with her style.  She's not into finding proof of spiritual things from what I've seen, though she likes to look at things in different ways so she may do research and discuss stuff for that reason.

 

 

As to the poster who stated that this happened after Noah's flood...maybe that was tongue-in-cheek?  Did the flood also wash up all the artifacts buried with this little boy, reposition the remains into a skeleton and distribute the artifacts in perfect order around him?  Sheesh....

Probably tongue in cheek, but if the body got over here before the flesh was dissolved, the skeleton issue at least is resolved. Maybe the artifacts were in a backpack he was carrying trying to escape from the flood to higher ground.

[Tiki]

The elephant in the room that is rarely addresses in any of these BoM DNA discussions is the curse brought on the Lamanites, which if we believe Moroni, is all that is left... no unaltered Nephite DNA.  Whatever genetic changes the Lord made, so that all subsequent seed had the same curse or change, is unknown.

 

Well, Lehi's promise to one of his sons, indicates otherwise:

 

         "And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed."

 

I would think that meant that his DNA would not be altered.

[blooit]

The elephant in the room that is rarely addresses in any of these BoM DNA discussions is the curse brought on the Lamanites, which if we believe Moroni, is all that is left... no unaltered Nephite DNA.  Whatever genetic changes the Lord made, so that all subsequent seed had the same curse or change, is unknown.

 

In my humble opinion, God often does these thing through natural means.  I think it is likely that the "curse" came through intermarriage with the previous inhabitants, rather than a "DNA hypermutation."  

[EllenMaksoud]

I guess I don't understand the question.  

I apologize, not being very good at interpreting humor at times.

[katherine the great]

Isn't this assuming that God changed all the DNA and not just that relating to skin colour?  If the identified markers for a population don't have to do with skin colour genes, wouldn't they still be present.

 

Perhaps you are only saying other genes may have been changed but if we don't what was changed, we can't know if the relevant DNA marker found in the original population would be found in the descendant, but cursed one.

You are so kind Cal.

 

 

 

 

Probably tongue in cheek, but if the body got over here before the flesh was dissolved, the skeleton issue at least is resolved. Maybe the artifacts were in a backpack he was carrying trying to escape from the flood to higher ground.

Probably.  

[katherine the great]

I apologize, not being very good at interpreting humor at times.

No worries.    (I thought it was kinda funny...)

[Ron Beron]

I'm curious to know why some people are posting that this is middle eastern dna.  What these articles state is that there is a Western Eurasian origin for some of the indigenous people of the Americas--meaning that this little boy's relatives were some of the very people who crossed over Beringia to the Americas over 10,000 years ago--just not the Far East Asian ones.  Wisely, this study is based on the entire genome and not just mitochondrial and Y DNA which only gives a very narrow set of information.  It makes perfect sense and also explains the X haplogroup found in some N. Americans.  The little boy's maternal line was U-very European and if found among modern N. Americans, always assumed post Columbus admixture (and probably was.)  But this is proof that some of the people crossing Beringia probably did carry European mitochondrial DNA and X might have been the only one that didn't disappear over time.

As to the poster who stated that this happened after Noah's flood...maybe that was tongue-in-cheek?  Did the flood also wash up all the artifacts buried with this little boy, reposition the remains into a skeleton and distribute the artifacts in perfect order around him?  Sheesh....

When I was living in Japan I noticed the similarities between the Ainu and European customs and clothing s.  Later, I read about the Tarim mummies of the Gobi which are distinctly Indo-European and date from around 2000 BCE.  It would not be hard to imagine a group of immigrants moving west to east to the Americas.  I think that a single cultural or racial identity in the Americas is a old idea and is slowly changing.

[katherine the great]

When I was living in Japan I noticed the similarities between the Ainu and European customs and clothing s.  Later, I read about the Tarim mummies of the Gobi which are distinctly Indo-European and date from around 2000 BCE.  It would not be hard to imagine a group of immigrants moving west to east to the Americas.  I think that a single cultural or racial identity in the Americas is a old idea and is slowly changing.

I thought about the Tarim mummies too when I read this article and I agree with your last sentence.  I think anthropologists have always been aware of the huge variation in Native American culture, but maybe the general public wasn't/isn't.

[Calm]

You are so kind Cal.

 

 

Thank you.  I will be sure and tell my mother you said so.  She worked hard at developing that quality in us and she deserves to know she was successful (at least most of the time).

[Sevenbak]

Isn't this assuming that God changed all the DNA and not just that relating to skin colour?  If the identified markers for a population don't have to do with skin colour genes, wouldn't they still be present.

 

Perhaps you are only saying other genes may have been changed but if we don't what was changed, we can't know if the relevant DNA marker found in the original population would be found in the descendant, but cursed one.

Not just assuming,  We simply don't know to what extent the curse did to the Lamanite DNA.  It was significant enough to change the DNA all subsequent births and generations.  If that isn't a DNA change, what else could it be?

[Sevenbak]

If one believes in a global flood, doesn't one generally believe that the entire world was populated before the Flood since IIRC it describes mankind as covering the face of the earth or some such thing at that time, so much the same usage as interpreted as a global flood.

That's not my understanding.   The Lord later sent the brother of Jared into that quarter of the land "where there never had man been."

[Sevenbak]

Well, Lehi's promise to one of his sons, indicates otherwise:

 

         "And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed."

 

I would think that meant that his DNA would not be altered.

Destroyed and altered are two different things.  

[Sevenbak]

In my humble opinion, God often does these thing through natural means.  I think it is likely that the "curse" came through intermarriage with the previous inhabitants, rather than a "DNA hypermutation."  

It's a logical theory, but unfortunately, that's not what the text says.  Alma 3:6-7 is very clear as to whom it affected.  It was the original sons of Lehi and company who received the initial curse, not mixed races from mixing with natives.

 

"the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their 

rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women".

 

 

I just don't see how the text can be clearer as to whom it affected.  We don't need to understand it all, other than it happened to the initial sons of Lehi, not mixed races.

[Stone holm]

Do we really know for certain how far back in time the Jaredite incursion was? But to paraphrase William C Bryant, I have more faith in the Book of Mormon than the age of bones.

[Sevenbak]

Do we really know for certain how far back in time the Jaredite incursion was? But to paraphrase William C Bryant, I have more faith in the Book of Mormon than the age of bones.

Pretty close, at least rounded to an even hundred years, according to the Church.

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/10/book-of-mormon-time-line?lang=eng

[Calm]

  The Lord later sent the brother of Jared into that quarter of the land "where there never had man been."

But that is in North American, right?  Do you believe Adam's descendants were spread out quite a bit or were still rather small in numbers by the time of the flood?

[blooit]

It's a logical theory, but unfortunately, that's not what the text says.  Alma 3:6-7 is very clear as to whom it affected.  It was the original sons of Lehi and company who received the initial curse, not mixed races from mixing with natives.

 

"the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their 

rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women".

 

 

I just don't see how the text can be clearer as to whom it affected.  We don't need to understand it all, other than it happened to the initial sons of Lehi, not mixed races.

 

I realize that I am taking a fairly broad interpretation to this scripture, but I still think there is a fair amount of room for this to mean their lines - their descendants.  As in "Judah was blessed" meaning the tribe of Judah.

 

"And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction."

 

Not by any means conclusive, but I do think it is not unreasonable to think that he was referring to the specific lines by name, not necessarily individuals. Especially written so much later in the BOM.  Just my personal take.

[brightpath]

Fact 1. The human race is 6013 yrs old. 4000bc + 2013ad = 6013ad. Fact 2 When the Jaradites came to The Americas after the flood they were the only ones here. Fact 3 When Lehi came to the Americas they were the only ones here. Later on the Mulekites followed. Fact 4 All Native Americans(pre Columbus or Gentile invasion) in the Americas are descendants of the Lamanites. Thus there are no 24,000 yr old bones(bogus science). There was no land bridge(bogus science theory). There were no Asians present in the Americas when Jared and Lehi came to the Americas.

[thesometimesaint]

On the other hand, If Sometimes Saint is saying what I think he is saying, in the absence of the subgroup of the haplotypes, I think it's a reasonable possibility.

 

Sometimes I ain't.

 

Evidently at least one group of genetic Middle Easterners(As opposed to Oriental) made it to the New World. If one group made it, there could be other groups. IOW While this find is way too early for Lehi, or the Jaredites, it does show that it is possible.

[Stone holm]

Fact 1. The human race is 6013 yrs old. 4000bc + 2013ad = 6013ad. Fact 2 When the Jaradites came to The Americas after the flood they were the only ones here. Fact 3 When Lehi came to the Americas they were the only ones here. Later on the Mulekites followed. Fact 4 All Native Americans(pre Columbus or Gentile invasion) in the Americas are descendants of the Lamanites. Thus there are no 24,000 yr old bones(bogus science). There was no land bridge(bogus science theory). There were no Asians present in the Americas when Jared and Lehi came to the Americas.

Where exactly did you date the age of the human race that you assert as a fact?

[katherine the great]

Fact 1. The human race is 6013 yrs old. 4000bc + 2013ad = 6013ad. Fact 2 When the Jaradites came to The Americas after the flood they were the only ones here. Fact 3 When Lehi came to the Americas they were the only ones here. Later on the Mulekites followed. Fact 4 All Native Americans(pre Columbus or Gentile invasion) in the Americas are descendants of the Lamanites. Thus there are no 24,000 yr old bones(bogus science). There was no land bridge(bogus science theory). There were no Asians present in the Americas when Jared and Lehi came to the Americas.

You are entitled to believe any fiction you choose.

[thesometimesaint]

Fact 1. The human race is 6013 yrs old. 4000bc + 2013ad = 6013ad. Fact 2 When the Jaradites came to The Americas after the flood they were the only ones here. Fact 3 When Lehi came to the Americas they were the only ones here. Later on the Mulekites followed. Fact 4 All Native Americans(pre Columbus or Gentile invasion) in the Americas are descendants of the Lamanites. Thus there are no 24,000 yr old bones(bogus science). There was no land bridge(bogus science theory). There were no Asians present in the Americas when Jared and Lehi came to the Americas.

 

1. The human race is between 250,000 years old and 200,000 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

 

2. Man has been in the Americas for about 50,000 years.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041118104010.htm

 

3 The Book of Mormon itself talks about others.

 

4. No they aren't. Many groups came here before the Jaredites let alone the Lehites.

 

5. CFR

 

6. CFR

 

7. CFR.