Is It Essential To My Salvation?

[jkwilliams]

In the past, when I've talked to some people about issues I have with the church, I've been told, "It's not pertinent to my salvation." And for most church members I know, my issues probably don't have anything to with their salvation, though for me they are, for wont of a better word, stumbling blocks.

But the discussion about the Garden of Eden and the age of the earth has me thinking (Oh, no, John, don't do that!): is belief in a literal Adam and Eve (and Fall) essential to my salvation? For that matter, is it essential to my salvation to believe in the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Jaredite barges, and any number of scriptural stories?

In my view, the gospel boils down to this:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everything beyond this is just gravy.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In the past, when I've talked to some people about issues I have with the church, I've been told, "It's not pertinent to my salvation." And for most church members I know, my issues probably don't have anything to with their salvation, though for me they are, for wont of a better word, stumbling blocks.

But the discussion about the Garden of Eden and the age of the earth has me thinking (Oh, no, John, don't do that!): is belief in a literal Adam and Eve (and Fall) essential to my salvation? For that matter, is it essential to my salvation to believe in the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Jaredite barges, and any number of scriptural stories?

In my view, the gospel boils down to this:

Everything beyond this is just gravy.

Here is the thing for me. I am not ready to abandon my faith simply because I cannot explain all the events of Adam with reveled science. So they are not sumbling blocks but things that sit on a shelf. I respond the way I do because of what is important to me. Specifically in the other thread about Adam. I know a literial reading of scriptures puts you at odds with science. So what do you do? Jump ship? Some do. Others don't. I understand that they can be stumbling blocks and I would honestly not want to diminish that. I am just offering my perspective. So the first thing is that Jesus is the Christ and that he is our Saviour. Then I need to look at my moral compass. And make sure it is in line with the Jesus taught. But some of the other things really are trivial. I think that is what it means when some say "It does not matter to my salvation".

Edited October 9, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[jkwilliams]

Here is the thing for me. I am not ready to abandon my faith simply because I cannot explain all the events of Adam with reveled science. So they are not sumbling blocks but things that sit on a shelf. I respond the way I do because of what is important to me. Specifically in the other thread about Adam. I know a literial reading of scriptures puts you at odds with science. So what do you do? Jump ship? Some do. Others don't. I understand that they can be stumbling blocks and I would honestly not want to diminish that. I am just offering my perspective. So the first thing is that Jesus is the Christ and that he is our Saviour. Then I need to look at my moral compass. And make sure it is in line with the Jesus taught. But some of the other things really are trivial. I think that is what it means when some say "It does not matter to my salvation".

What I'm saying is that things like this are not great reasons to "jump ship." For example, as far as I know, church doctrine is that the Jaredites came from the place where they were building the Tower of Babel and they crossed the sea in special barges lit by glowing stones; these events are to be taken literally. If someone tells me that these things are incredibly unlikely, I wouldn't spend a minute of effort on trying to find some rational basis behind these stories. Why? Because they are stories, and they are valuable because of what they teach us, not because they accurately reflect a literal history.

So, it sounds as if you agree with my OP.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So, it sounds as if you agree with my OP.

Yes that is exactly right. I do agree with it. Just offering what I was thinking about it.

[Jude2]

“It doesn't matter if the pearly gates swing or slide just as long as they open” (Hinckley)  

[CV75]

In the past, when I've talked to some people about issues I have with the church, I've been told, "It's not pertinent to my salvation." And for most church members I know, my issues probably don't have anything to with their salvation, though for me they are, for wont of a better word, stumbling blocks.

But the discussion about the Garden of Eden and the age of the earth has me thinking (Oh, no, John, don't do that!): is belief in a literal Adam and Eve (and Fall) essential to my salvation? For that matter, is it essential to my salvation to believe in the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Jaredite barges, and any number of scriptural stories?

In my view, the gospel boils down to this:

Everything beyond this is just gravy.

(Gravy is a good thing, right?)

 

Stumbling blocks are obviously not essential for salvation, but by definition they hinder, impede or otherwise disadvantage us--in this case, from salvation. Some stumbling blocks are external, taking advantage of the unsuspecting, and some are internal.

 

On the other hand, gaining knowledge and intelligence through diligence and obedience are advantageous to salvation (D&C 130). One’s diligence and obedience rests internally, within himself.

 

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 121)--but what essential appendages they are!

 

I would include among these essentials a testimony, which entails making and keeping the covenants and ordinances. Doctrinal knowledge and intelligence are essential, but they are gained through diligence and obedience as expressed by study and faith in accordance with making and keeping the covenants. Diligence and obedience protect the unsuspecting from both internal and external stumbling blocks.

[theplains]

In the past, when I've talked to some people about issues I have with the church, I've been told, "It's not pertinent to my salvation." And for most church members I know, my issues probably don't have anything to with their salvation, though for me they are, for wont of a better word, stumbling blocks.

But the discussion about the Garden of Eden and the age of the earth has me thinking (Oh, no, John, don't do that!): is belief in a literal Adam and Eve (and Fall) essential to my salvation? For that matter, is it essential to my salvation to believe in the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Jaredite barges, and any number of scriptural stories?

 

The problem is that once you start rejecting one part of the Bible, there is nothing to stop you

from rejecting the rest. It is not a "pick-and-choose-what-you-like" kind of book. If Adam and

Eve were not literal and Abel was not killed, then you will also have to accuse Jesus and some

of the Apostles of being liars.

 

Regards,

Jim

[jkwilliams]

The problem is that once you start rejecting one part of the Bible, there is nothing to stop you

from rejecting the rest. It is not a "pick-and-choose-what-you-like" kind of book. If Adam and

Eve were not literal and Abel was not killed, then you will also have to accuse Jesus and some

of the Apostles of being liars.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

That seems a bit extreme. I guess I'm not that much of a literalist.

[stemelbow]

 

The problem is that once you start rejecting one part of the Bible, there is nothing to stop you

from rejecting the rest. It is not a "pick-and-choose-what-you-like" kind of book. If Adam and

Eve were not literal and Abel was not killed, then you will also have to accuse Jesus and some

of the Apostles of being liars.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

 

I think there's plenty to pick and choose from in the Bible.  The bible is not univocal, as some of them experts like to say.  It's also not all derived from one person.  it is multi-person, multi-era, and multi-group.  That while realizing there are contradictions within the Bible--particularly from one book to another, I conclude we can pick and choose.  Picking and choosing is a difficult task, though.  I don't think it's as easy as going with personal preference, although that's what it'll amount to individually.  It should be spirit-direction.  In practice near impossible since Spirit-directed is so unverifiable and it seems so misunderstood. 

 

Oh what a difficult spot we find ourselves in, huh?

[JLHPROF]

In the past, when I've talked to some people about issues I have with the church, I've been told, "It's not pertinent to my salvation." And for most church members I know, my issues probably don't have anything to with their salvation, though for me they are, for wont of a better word, stumbling blocks.

But the discussion about the Garden of Eden and the age of the earth has me thinking (Oh, no, John, don't do that!): is belief in a literal Adam and Eve (and Fall) essential to my salvation? For that matter, is it essential to my salvation to believe in the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Jaredite barges, and any number of scriptural stories?

In my view, the gospel boils down to this:

Everything beyond this is just gravy.

 

You are 100% correct about the essential part of the gospel, but as far as being essential to your salvation we must never forget what Joseph Smith taught us:

“A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth.  Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of things of God.”

and also

"Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God."

 

Seems to me that my personal salvation, as well as my ability to help lead my fellow man to find salvation, does depend on how much I know about the things of God.  After all, The Glory of God is Intelligence.

[CA Steve]

I understand the distinction people are making between what might be considered esential to salvation and what is not. What I do not understand why that is reason not be interested in other aspects of ones belief & history.

[CV75]

I understand the distinction people are making between what might be considered esential to salvation and what is not. What I do not understand why that is reason not be interested in other aspects of ones belief & history.

I thnk it only provides reason when people weigh their priorities, nclding spiritual priorities, with their skills, interests, abilities and resources. Some people make very satisfying careers and vocations out of theology and history, others make very valuable contributions as a result, and some do both. The spiritual value of course is derived from how they obtain and present their conclusions (D&C 50:17) and/or how they are received by others (D&C 50:19).

[omni]

Whenever I here someone respond to an argument with "it doesn't pertain to my salvation", I realize they probably just don't have an answer. I'd be curious to know how many here would use that same argument if the presidency came out today with an official statement declaring they had received a revelation from God that there is a race of people inhabiting the moon and that it will be our responsibility in the near future to bring them the gospel.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That seems a bit extreme. I guess I'm not that much of a literalist.

I think what is important to note is that sometimes things don't happen exactly the way they are told and people need not be liars for telling them the way they remember. And we also need to remember that is not like we have original autographs from Adam and Eve. I mean it is unrealistic to think that it is 100% accurate in every detail. So I agree that is a bit extreme.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[wenglund]

Whenever I here someone respond to an argument with "it doesn't pertain to my salvation", I realize they probably just don't have an answer.

 

...that, or they may recognize that the person making the arguments probably doesn't get what the Church is really about, and they are just trying to clue the person in.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CA Steve]

I thnk it only provides reason when people weigh their priorities, nclding spiritual priorities, with their skills, interests, abilities and resources. Some people make very satisfying careers and vocations out of theology and history, others make very valuable contributions as a result, and some do both. The spiritual value of course is derived from how they obtain and present their conclusions (D&C 50:17) and/or how they are received by others (D&C 50:19).

I understand but this does not explain any connection between what is viewed as important to salvation and the lack of interest in (insert subject here). Here is what I  mean. If I told you "I am uninterested in cellular biology because it is not important to my salvation" you might be scratching your head as to what the two had to do with each other. So why do we not also question why a lack of interest in a Church related subject can be excused as unimportant to our salvation?

[Kenngo1969]

Whenever I here someone respond to an argument with "it doesn't pertain to my salvation", I realize they probably just don't have an answer. 

 

There's nothing wrong with "[not hav]ing an answer."  See Articles of Faith 1:9

 

I'd be curious to know how many here would use that same argument if the presidency came out today with an official statement declaring they had received a revelation from God that there is a race of people inhabiting the moon and that it will be our responsibility in the near future to bring them the gospel.

 

 

I'd ask when the rocket leaves and start packing my bags!

[omni]

There's nothing wrong with "[not hav]ing an answer." See Articles of Faith 1:9

I'd ask when the rocket leaves and start packing my bags!

Who knows, it could be filled with beautiful single women just waiting for their very own Obi-Wan Kenngo-bi

[CV75]

I understand but this does not explain any connection between what is viewed as important to salvation and the lack of interest in (insert subject here). Here is what I  mean. If I told you "I am uninterested in cellular biology because it is not important to my salvation" you might be scratching your head as to what the two had to do with each other. So why do we not also question why a lack of interest in a Church related subject can be excused as unimportant to our salvation?

I think it is because the salvific essentials are so few, specific and common to all, and at the same time, individuals are so diverse in their makeup, that the opportunities abound for some to confound their interests with the essentials (and lack of interest with the non-essentials) while invalidating others’ interests as non-essential, or assessing their lack of interest as an afront to one or more essentials (and/or interests) that they themselves hold dear. I think it is about the extent of clash or agreement between individuals' priorities.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In the past, when I've talked to some people about issues I have with the church, I've been told, "It's not pertinent to my salvation." And for most church members I know, my issues probably don't have anything to with their salvation, though for me they are, for wont of a better word, stumbling blocks.But the discussion about the Garden of Eden and the age of the earth has me thinking (Oh, no, John, don't do that!): is belief in a literal Adam and Eve (and Fall) essential to my salvation? For that matter, is it essential to my salvation to believe in the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Jaredite barges, and any number of scriptural stories?In my view, the gospel boils down to this:Everything beyond this is just gravy.

I heard that growing up Baptists, never in 35 years of being LDS. But as you know I am Georgia and you in Utah, unless you have moved.

[jkwilliams]

I heard that growing up Baptists, never in 35 years of being LDS. But as you know I am Georgia and you in Utah, unless you have moved.

 

I'm from California, but I am now in your time zone, in Virginia.

[BCSpace]

But the discussion about the Garden of Eden and the age of the earth has me thinking (Oh, no, John, don't do that!): is belief in a literal Adam and Eve (and Fall) essential to my salvation? For that matter, is it essential to my salvation to believe in the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Jaredite barges, and any number of scriptural stories?

In my view, the gospel boils down to this:

 

I'm going to throw a wrench into that and say yes, it's ALL essential to your salvation as it has bearing on what type of Christ and gospel you believe in; the true one or a false one.  We don't have enough details on some things, but at the very least, if it is taught as historical then it must be believed that way or it doesn't work.

Edited October 10, 2013 by BCSpace

[jkwilliams]

I'm going to throw a wrench into that and say yes, it's ALL essential to your salvation as it has bearing on what type of Christ and gospel you believe in; the true one or a false one.  We don't have enough details on some things, but at the very least, if it is taught as historical then it must be believed that way or it doesn't work.

 

That doesn't throw any wrenches for me. If Job is an allegory, for example, it has no effect on whether Christ and the gospel are true in any sense.

[Calm]

The problem is that once you start rejecting one part of the Bible, there is nothing to stop you

from rejecting the rest. 

Just the Spirit if that is why you reject "one part".

[theplains]

Just the Spirit if that is why you reject "one part".

 

Does the Spirit lead you to reject any parts of the Bible?  If yes, which ones?

 

Thanks,

Jim