Subtle...did The Ow Group Hear That?

[Bernard Gui]

After Sister Stephens spoke, I noted to a friend that she will take some heat for defending the status quo.

Someone somewhere is going to say, "She isn't Woman enough."

[Calm]

And yet she is probably the speaker who has conveyed "Woman" most in conference.

 

Notice her constant use of "women" alongside "men" and her use of the phrase "women, womanhood, and motherhood"....she offered a differentiation that is very important to framing the discussion.  Very impressed.

[canard78]

Weirdest PH session ever! Normally my husband would be with his dad and brothers and their sons. But not tonight he stayed home and he, my son and I watched, along with my inactive daughter and her husband who happen to drop by. Normally I just get me time. And just the thought that my husband didn't stick with tradition doesn't sit well. I guess times change. Dang OW group. I'm just going to have to get use to change. Maybe I'll have to start a new tradition and get everyone to watch together, than have pie after. But still uneasy about it being live on TV. Now what if everyone in the church decides to stay home and watch.

 

Thank you Tacenda. I think you illustrate why it's reasonable to have times when fathers and sons have some 'men time.' It's a chance for the mothers and daughters to have 'women's time.' My daughter is excited every year for Father & Sons camp as my two boys are. She loves the 'Mum-time' and late night she gets.

[mormonnewb]

Perhaps, someone can explain to my why ANY woman would be opposed to ANOTHER woman getting the priesthood? I certainly can understand a sister saying that she doesn't want it. But why can't she be free to decline it without feeling the need to deprive her sister of it?

I wasn't around at the time but I can't imagine that the vast majority of my fellow black saints were opposed to our priesthood prior to 1978. Perhaps, some didn't want it but weren't they free to reject it even after OD2? Why can't the vast majority of women who don't want the Priesthood simply decline it for themselves (if it is ever made available to women) instead of vociferously declaring that they don't want it for ANY women?

Just curious ...

[Storm Rider]

Hello and Welcome to the group.

 

Sometimes we all speak with broad brush strokes; it allows others to misinterpret our intent and poorly communicates what we desire. I suspect that some women speak from a position that they do not think it is wise to agitate for the priesthood; they see it as a stand that is incompatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Others see it from a perspective of equality and freedom; they don't see any reason to prevent them from doing something they feel they are more than capable of doing. Regardless of their own personal perspectives, they (we) all talk with some degree of difficulty on the these web sites. We don't see each other's faces, we don't sense their emotions well; our communication is hampered.

 

However, as to why a woman does not want any woman to have the priesthood needs to be answered by a woman; I cannot help you. I suspect there are as many opinions as there are women.  

[rpn]

Do most members think in terms of they  want women to have the priesthood or not?   I would guess that most would think in terms of I don't care whether or not women have the priesthood.  I just care that Heavenly Father is the one deciding who holds the priesthood, and church members are willing to accept that the decision is His and He is perfectly capable of  moving His prophet and council's to His position all by Himself, should He desire to change the traditional way things have been done since the beginning of time.

[bluebell]

Do most members think in terms of they want women to have the priesthood or not? I would guess that most would think in terms of I don't care whether or not women have the priesthood. I just care that Heavenly Father is the one deciding who holds the priesthood, and church members are willing to accept that the decision is His and He is perfectly capable of moving His prophet and council's to His position all by Himself, should He desire to change the traditional way things have been done since the beginning of time.

I think you are right rpn.

Most women who are critical of the OW group are so because they feel that these women are attempting to 'take the honor' of the priesthood 'upon themselves' rather than submitting to the will of the Father in the matter.

[Calm]

Do most members think in terms of they  want women to have the priesthood or not?   I would guess that most would think in terms of I don't care whether or not women have the priesthood.  I just care that Heavenly Father is the one deciding who holds the priesthood, and church members are willing to accept that the decision is His and He is perfectly capable of  moving His prophet and council's to His position all by Himself, should He desire to change the traditional way things have been done since the beginning of time.

I would agree that most frame the conversation of Priesthood that way.  That is one reason why I think it should be separated from discussing other potential problems that arise from perceived inequalities due to gender.  It is all well and good to speculate on how such a change would impact someone's life, but since it doesn't go past "it is Heavenly Father's Plan, not mine", it is useless speculation...one can't plan or do anything with it (nor should they in my opinion).  But there is plenty we can focus on that we can actually use in the here and now so why not put our resources behind that.  That waste to me is the biggest tragedy of groups like OW, they could be achieving their goals of change even now with all that energy and commitment (one woman flew out from Germany to be there apparently) if those goals were ones that were about local policies and programs or social dynamics that might then spread out through the culture as has occurred in the past even with programs being picked up by the leadership for the whole Church to implement.

Edited October 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[JLHPROF]

Do most members think in terms of they  want women to have the priesthood or not?   I would guess that most would think in terms of I don't care whether or not women have the priesthood.  I just care that Heavenly Father is the one deciding who holds the priesthood, and church members are willing to accept that the decision is His and He is perfectly capable of  moving His prophet and council's to His position all by Himself, should He desire to change the traditional way things have been done since the beginning of time.

 

I think that we err when we assume that all that is needed for God to change who holds the Priesthood is his will.  God operates on eternal principles and cannot change them just because he wants to.  Mormon 9:19 tells us that God changeth not or he would cease to be God - he is bound by these eternal principles. 

 

Here is an interesting article - nothing authoritative, just someone's opinion, but I think the principles should be applied when we think that God is going to "change his mind" on a matter.  -   http://www.mormonchronicle.com/the-mountain-god-cant-move/

[Calm]

I think that we err when we assume that all that is needed for God to change who holds the Priesthood is his will.  God operates on eternal principles and cannot change them just because he wants to.

 

Well, I for one just assume that his Will takes into account those eternal principles and thus he would never want to do something that would work against them...so such condition is a 'given' when I say such a thing.

[mormonnewb]

Do most members think in terms of they  want women to have the priesthood or not?   I would guess that most would think in terms of I don't care whether or not women have the priesthood.  I just care that Heavenly Father is the one deciding who holds the priesthood, and church members are willing to accept that the decision is His and He is perfectly capable of  moving His prophet and council's to His position all by Himself, should He desire to change the traditional way things have been done since the beginning of time.

I would agree with this sentiment if our church leaders were infallible (I.e., their leadership and guidance always perfectly reflected the will of Heavenly Father). However, that isn't the case:

"To be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or LEADERS in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.” Pres Uchtdorf, YESTERDAY

If this great man of God is correct, isn't possible that mistakes are CURRENTLY being made and that this is one of them? And while I totally understand why a man "don't care," I would think that women members would. As an African-American, I so wish so that more of my beloved white brothers and sisters had cared about my ancestors receiving the blessings of the priesthood.

[why me]

Perhaps, someone can explain to my why ANY woman would be opposed to ANOTHER woman getting the priesthood? I certainly can understand a sister saying that she doesn't want it. But why can't she be free to decline it without feeling the need to deprive her sister of it?

Just curious ...

Because of principle. I don't think that many men or boys refuse the priesthood. Most accept it and its responsibility. Likewise for girls and women. This can't be a matter of choice...that girls can refuse and women too. How could the church work like that? Those women who refuse the priesthood attend relief society and those who accept the priesthood go to priesthood meetings? And what about the girls? Those who accept the priesthood are with the boys and those who don't can attend the young women's organization. The responsiblity of accepting must be the same for both girls and boys and likewise for women.

[why me]

Do most members think in terms of they  want women to have the priesthood or not?   I would guess that most would think in terms of I don't care whether or not women have the priesthood.  I just care that Heavenly Father is the one deciding who holds the priesthood, and church members are willing to accept that the decision is His and He is perfectly capable of  moving His prophet and council's to His position all by Himself, should He desire to change the traditional way things have been done since the beginning of time.

This would certainly be the logic of The Community of Christ. But it would be a bitter pill to swallow that they had it right all along.

Edited October 6, 2013 by why me

[rongo]

Does anyone have that OW graphic showing colorful women attending priesthood session with colorless male drones? Is there a link?

 

I just don't want to click through pages of OW threads to find it (laziness).

 

Thanks!

[JLHPROF]

Does anyone have that OW graphic showing colorful women attending priesthood session with colorless male drones? Is there a link?

 

I just don't want to click through pages of OW threads to find it (laziness).

 

Thanks!

[rongo]

Thanks!

[Calm]

Because of principle. I don't think that many men or boys refuse the priesthood. Most accept it and its responsibility. Likewise for girls and women. This can't be a matter of choice...that girls can refuse and women too. How could the church work like that? Those women who refuse the priesthood attend relief society and those who accept the priesthood go to priesthood meetings? And what about the girls? Those who accept the priesthood are with the boys and those who don't can attend the young women's organization. The responsiblity of accepting must be the same for both girls and boys and likewise for women.

I do agree that it shouldn't be like missionary work where young men are presented it as more of a duty while it is an option for women even though the numbers are getting much closer and will continue to do so.

 

The choice needs to be the same whether presented as a duty---even though also a great blessing---to take on or as a choice based on personal appraisal.

Edited October 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Does anyone have that OW graphic showing colorful women attending priesthood session with colorless male drones? Is there a link?

 

I just don't want to click through pages of OW threads to find it (laziness).

 

Thanks!

It is on the main/home page in case you want to find it in the future.

[Kenngo1969]

Shocked the doctor, too!

As you might be able to tell from my Avatar pic, she has more hair than I do ... already!  Now, that's just sick and wrong, I tell you!  Sick and wrong!  (Congratulations! )

[rpn]

But IME, Heavenly Father is perfectly capable of hitting his leaders upside the head when He needs them to do something and  they just aren't getting it.   If He can do it with little old me, He surely can do it for the prophet and council of the Twelve, to the extent that HE thinks it critical at any specific time.  

[wenglund]

I would agree with this sentiment if our church leaders were infallible (I.e., their leadership and guidance always perfectly reflected the will of Heavenly Father). However, that isn't the case:

"To be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or LEADERS in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.” Pres Uchtdorf, YESTERDAY

If this great man of God is correct, isn't possible that mistakes are CURRENTLY being made and that this is one of them? And while I totally understand why a man "don't care," I would think that women members would. As an African-American, I so wish so that more of my beloved white brothers and sisters had cared about my ancestors receiving the blessings of the priesthood.

 

I agree with the previous statement even given the belief that church leaders are fallible, and this because I recognize that members (including women) are also fallible, and perhaps even more so in some respects when they aren't in a position to receive revelation on behalf of the Church from an infallible being.

 

In my estimation, the point being, the gospel is about humbly looking to Christ for direction, rather than being driven by pride and envy in seeking one's own will.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It seems that the first counselor of the relief society presidency addressed the ordainwomen people by speaking about the roles that we have as sons and daughters of god. She also stressed the priesthood several times as belonging to the sons of god. How will the OrdainWomen react to this speech. Also, she spoke about the proclamation of family and its importance. No caving in to social pressure in this talk.

The speakers are not assigned topics, but called to teach the doctrines of the Church...Good job, she did.

[mormonnewb]

I agree with the previous statement even given the belief that church leaders are fallible, and this because I recognize that members (including women) are also fallible, and perhaps even more so in some respects when they aren't in a position to receive revelation on behalf of the Church from an infallible being.

 

In my estimation, the point being, the gospel is about humbly looking to Christ for direction, rather than being driven by pride and envy in seeking one's own will.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I only wish the Internet was around 35 years ago, so I could go back and read message board posts just like this one about how blacks were envious and prideful in our desire to assume the responsibilities of the priesthood. I just assume, Dear Brother, that when Heavenly Father makes the priesthood available to ALL worthy members of the church that you won't be one of the people who will clim that they "pulled over to the side of the road and wept tears of joy" (that pride and envy prevailed).

[Deborah]

I only wish the Internet was around 35 years ago, so I could go back and read message board posts just like this one about how blacks were envious and prideful in our desire to assume the responsibilities of the priesthood.

 

No one has said that. In fact most members I knew back then were elated when we heard the ban was lifted. The difference then is that you didn't see black members parading in front of Conference making a public spectacle. They were humbly beseeching the prophets (note multiple prophets) and praying and waiting for the answer.

 

These women are now saying that they will forgive the leaders for just throwing them stones when they didn't get their way. Many of them are in a snit because they fully expected, even after being explicitly told they wouldn't be admitted to Priesthood that at the last minute they would be allowed to. I have no patience with them and the whining is really getting irritating, especially when you know a lot of them aren't even active members now.

[rongo]

I think people equating women ordination with black male ordination are missing an important distinction: *male* ordination.

 

I think that female ordination would be a lot harder for a lot more people to accept than ordaining black males.