Can You Be Over-Obiedient?

[Duncan]

Can you be over-obedient in the Church?

[canard78]

To what?

I think sometimes people belligerently apply the handbook, which is a guide not a commandment.

I also have reached a stage where I try to be true to what God wants for me and try to get guidance from the primary source.

I enjoyed reading this today:

There's no office in the Church that qualifies the holder to give the official interpretation of the Church. We're to read the scriptures for ourselves, as guided by the Spirit. Joseph Smith himself often disagreed with various of his brethren on different points, yet he never cracked down on them, saying they'd better change this or that, or else. He disagreed with Parley P. Pratt on a number of things, and also with Brigham Young on various things.

http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=103&id=1154

I think over-obedience (unquestioned compliance) with prophets is a problem. But then I don't think they have ever asked us to. It's probably the first lesson I remember from conference. I can't remember who said it, but at the end of their talk they said something like "don't just do it because I said so. Go home and find out, through prayer, whether or not it is the truth."

That made a lasting impression on me. As such, I am not obedient to every thing a prophet says or writes. But I try to follow what I believe to be God's will for me.

Edited July 28, 2013 by canard78

[Duncan]

To what?

I think sometimes people belligerently apply the handbook, which is a guide not a commandment.

I also have reached a stage where I try to be true to what God wants for me and try to get guidance from the primary source.

I enjoyed reading this today:

http://mimobile.byu....kid=103&id=1154

rules, policies in the Church

[Calm]

I think if one uses "obedience" in place of spiritual seeking or thinks that being obedient to a checklist of commands is all that is needed rather than an individual commitment to each commandment, this can lead to issues.

Also if one never moves past being obedient for the sake of obedience to being obedient out of love for God and Man, one has limited oneself unnecessarily.

[Calm]

rules, policies in the Church

I don't think one should be obedient to rules and policies. I think those should be followed because they make sense in the system or adapted to the individual situation.

They are definitely not in the same realm as commandments.

[canard78]

rules, policies in the Church

Let's call 'rules' the principles we believe we should live by.

To paraphrase Covey:

Sow a principle > reap an action

Sow an action > reap a habit

Sow a habit > reap a character

Sow a character > reap a destiny

So I consider obedience to commandments/principles to only be useful in so much as they create habits and character.

A whole range of commandments and principles (Mormon/Christian or even non-religious) can lead developing to a Christlike character if applied and followed.

If you mean the handbook. Yes, I think an over-belligerence can be limiting.

[mfbukowski]

Can you be over-obedient in the Church?

I can't be, because I am a pretty rebellious person, but your experience may differ.

Edited July 28, 2013 by mfbukowski

[cinepro]

Can you be over-obedient in the Church?

No. In the LDS scheme of things, it is impossible to be "too obedient".

It is only possible to be obedient to the wrong spiritual influence (i.e. Satan). But if you're following God and the Prophet, then over-obedience is impossible.

[halconero]

There is a difference between being exactly obedient and excessively obedient. Nephi followed the letter of the law to the T, but never fell into excess. Some, in their effort to being obedient to the commands of God, build up a hedge of traditions and opinions that they hold to be just as sacrosanct as the original commandment. We see this in the scriptures with the Pharisees, and today in the Church. Back then some claimed that sticking a pin in your clothing for safe keeping was the equivalent of carrying your tools around, potentially making you a Sabbath breaker. Today some claim that the consumption of caffeine is breaking the Word of Wisdom.

There doesn't need to be a dichotomy between the letter and the spirit of the law. To become more like God the two must work in harmony, where someone follows the letter through the discernment of the Spirit.

[mfbukowski]

The savior did only what he saw his father do.

I guess he was over-obedient and therefore a sinner.

Edited July 28, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Storm Rider]

It is not possible for an individual to become "over-obedient" toward our Father in Heaven. It is very possible for a person to be zealous in what they perceive as God's teachings. The issue at stake is wisdom; defining priorities. Zealots lose all sense of priority and become overly concerned about the minor commandments and loose perspective about that which is of vital importance. I don't see obedience and zealotry as being the same thing.

[LordUther]

I think there's the spirit of the law & the letter of the law & some people can be over obedient to the letter to the detriment of the spirit.

[MDalby]

Any virtue taken to an extreme can become a vice.

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice."

(President Packer, CR, April 2013)

[thesometimesaint]

Even the benign of commandmnets taken to excess is not a good thng. Just ask the pharisees.

[Thinking]

Perhaps a scenario will generate some good dialogue.

Eve is on the high school basketball team. She is a starter and the team would have a difficult time winning if she didn't play. The young women are scheduled to help at the local food shelter for their annual service project on the same night as an important basketball game.

[Questing Beast]

"Obedience is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams". And God cut off the king of Israel because he was not obedient.

I dislike the story quite a bit. Saul got worse after that. So how was that helpful? If God had continued to work with the king of his people, that they had chosen, instead of getting all uppity and jealous (Samuel's faults, though, not God's, imho), then Saul would have hung in there, mistaken notions and all, and ended his days in favor instead of being "cut off" and having to forge ahead alone. The story makes Saul entirely at fault, turns him into a pariah and makes his resulting irrationality the result of wickedness, instead of allowing that by cutting him off he was driven into a position of saving face as the king. A king and his priest must have agreement or the nation suffers, the king not least of all.

I think that "obedience" in the real world is always about conforming to authority of men. Yet we have Jesus Christ, Elijah, Moses, David, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et al. the individuals of legend who break the established order to pieces, i.e. are "DISOBEDIENT" except to God, and point to the faults in the existing order or authority. Often they don't exactly "get away with it" either, but are famous forever after as being right. We have examples of disobedience that go bad too: and the only difference is public opinion, based on "success". A successful rebel is listening to God, a failure listened to the devil. The entire paradigm for judging is screwed up....

[3DOP]

Great topic. The same conversation needs to be held by Catholics.

One can be "over-obedient" to any authority except God. But one should be wary of thinking that he is disobeying an authority because he is "obeying God rather than man".

Nazi war criminals were over-obedient to the State. Any of us can think of scenarios where we would be sinning to obey unrighteous directions from employers or parents.

Back to over-obedience to the one true church, (if you believe in that as most Mormons and some Catholics do), I won't tell this perfectly but you'll get the idea. John Henry Newman, a famous convert some here will be familiar with, was at a table at which a toast was proposed to the pope. Then someone proposed a toast to "conscience". The question arose as to which "authority" was higher and at that point Newman proposed a toast "to the pope, but to conscience first". I think this illustrates a little the delicate balance that should exist between the believer, human authority, and our inward formation. We should do all diligence before we should disobey the state, parents, or the church, to be reasonably certain that we cannot discover a way to obey without violating the conscience. We should objectively try to ask ourselves if we have in some way made our conscience "ill-informed"? Perhaps our own private opinions or pride are steering our conscience away from the truth?

The radical disharmony in the soul that takes place when legitimate authority disagrees with conscience should be the occasion for deepest reflection. A rash, hasty judgment shows how foolishly we can behave toward those who we believe God has placed over us. But after an attempt to understand the questionable instruction, and a profound interior search of soul finds no way to submit, I agree wholeheartedly with Newman. One can be over-obedient.

Conscience first,

3DOP

Edited July 28, 2013 by 3DOP

[Stroopwafel]

We would say that someone is "over"-obedient, whereas this same person would simply believe that he/she is simply being obedient.

So what do we really mean/imply when we say "over" in this context?

[CV75]

Can you be over-obedient in the Church?

Does "over" mean missing the mark, or missing the correct object of obedience (as enlightened by the Holy Ghost)? If so, then yes.

[The Nehor]

Can you be over-obedient in the Church?

To God, no.

To other sources, yes.

You can also be obnoxiously obedient where you annoy everyone around you with it.

Over obedience might include making up new rules and enforcing them on yourself. I do not include commandments received by revelation in here. Just rationalizing out more rules.

[Cobalt-70]

You can be over-obedient to God, too. For example, if God tells you in a dream to take your first-born child up to a mountain, tie him to an altar, chant a prayer, slit his throat and burn him as a human sacrifice to Yahweh, and you do it, then you are over-obedient. My answer if God instructs me to do something barbaric and evil like that: Hell no!

Edited July 29, 2013 by Cobalt-70

[Cobalt-70]

There is a difference between being exactly obedient and excessively obedient. Nephi followed the letter of the law to the T, but never fell into excess.one follows the letter through the discernment of the Spirit.

Except when God told him to murder a passed-out man like a dog in the street.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Cobalt-70

[ERayR]

No. In the LDS scheme of things, it is impossible to be "too obedient".

It is only possible to be obedient to the wrong spiritual influence (i.e. Satan). But if you're following God and the Prophet, then over-obedience is impossible.

BZZZ wrong again. Example Adam's choice. Oops I forgot Adam is just figurative anyway Oh never mind.

[The Nehor]

Except when God told him to murder a passed-out man like a dog in the street.

Oh no!!!! That poor thieving murderer!!! Who will think of him? If Nephi had any sense of justice he would have hauled him before a legal representative of the government and....oh wait, he was the government.

You can be over-obedient to God, too. For example, if God tells you in a dream to take your first-born child up to a mountain, tie him to an alter, chant a prayer, slit his throat and burn him as a human sacrifice to Yahweh, and you do it, then you are over-obedient. My answer if God instructs me to do something barbaric and evil like that: Hell no!

What if it comes via vision and not a dream?

[The Nehor]

BZZZ wrong again. Example Adam's choice. Oops I forgot Adam is just figurative anyway Oh never mind.

Wait, what?