Can You Be Over-Obiedient?

[Robert F. Smith]

No. In the LDS scheme of things, it is impossible to be "too obedient".

It is only possible to be obedient to the wrong spiritual influence (i.e. Satan). But if you're following God and the Prophet, then over-obedience is impossible.

Not sure whether you intend any of this with tongue in cheek, cinepro.

But, the only rule is that there are no rules!!

If "obedience is better than sacrifice," bear in mind that the sacrificial cult in question was part of the basic set of rules. So which rule to obey? That is the dilemma unique to human existence: We must decide which rules to obey, and why. That is part of the test we came here to undergo. We must decide which rules take precedence over others (if necessary), and we must not obey the letter of law if it violates the spirit of the law. Moreover, we must admit that they who have not the law are a law unto themselves -- and tolerate that distinction.

The Brethren and the Handbook make the point that, if any Church function or activity interferes with the family, the family takes precedence. This balancing act which we must employ here during our earthly probation is what we do to learn how to become like the Great Wallendas, to whom balancing seems easy.

[Robert F. Smith]

BZZZ wrong again. Example Adam's choice. Oops I forgot Adam is just figurative anyway Oh never mind.

What about Eve's choice? In the event she surely made the clever choice -- which took Adam a while to understand and accept.

[Calm]

Excellent post, RS. add-on: the previous one, though I like the above as well.

Edited July 29, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

What about Eve's choice? In the event she surely made the clever choice -- which took Adam a while to understand and accept.

OK by me. Good example also. Just shows there are more than 1 example.

[Robert F. Smith]

Except when God told him to murder a passed-out man like a dog in the street.

You're comparing man's best friend to drunken Laban? C'mon Cobalt! Let's get real.

"Murder" is unlawful killing, and God presumably has final authority over all life, aside from the fact that he authorized a number of killings in the Bible.

And anyhow, it isn't only Laban who loses his head by his own sword. The same thing happened to Goliath while he lay stunned on the field of battle. Lancelot du Lac did the same to Sir Turquine and Sir Phelot, and Beowulf did the same to Grendel.

Indeed, Yale Egyptologist William K. Simpson believes that the Goliath topos is borrowed from the ancient Egyptian tale of Sinuhe, in which Sinuhe must battle a powerful Asiatic hero (B109-145), whom he defeats and kills with that hero’s own battle-axe (B140) -- Simpson, “The Story of Sinuhe,” 59 n. 12, in W. K. Simpson, ed., The Literature of Ancient Egypt, 3^rd ed. (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 2003), citing G. Lanczkowski, MDAIK, 16 (1958), 214-218. .All this quite aside from the appearance of that same topos in the Bible as an encounter between Elhanan and Lahmi, and between Jonathan and another giant (II Sam 21:19, I Chron 20:5-8) -- how many instances of this motif are there??!

[EllenMaksoud]

Can you be over-obedient in the Church?

Most people I know, struggle with being disobedient.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Having spent the past seven years serving first as Young Men president, then as second counsellor in the bishopric, and now as first counsellor in the bishopric, I have had more than my fill of observing gut-wrenching heartache, loss, confusion, broken families, broken lives, fear, etc. -- all of which could have been easily avoided had people simply followed what we are anxiously attempting to teach them. Sunday last week I broke down and sobbed under the weight of all this needless suffering. When he asked what was wrong, I told the second counsellor, with whom I was processing tithing/offerings, that it was just the weight of some of the sins of our insignificant little corner of the world. 'Imagine being one of the apostles', I said, 'and feeling the burden of all the suffering in the Church that could be avoided just by simple obedience!' At that moment I developed even greater resolve that neither the prophets of the Living God nor the Lord Himself should have cause to look at me, weep, and think, 'I tried so, so hard to save you from this, but you just wouldn't listen'.

[halconero]

You can be over-obedient to God, too. For example, if God tells you in a dream to take your first-born child up to a mountain, tie him to an alter, chant a prayer, slit his throat and burn him as a human sacrifice to Yahweh, and you do it, then you are over-obedient. My answer if God instructs me to do something barbaric and evil like that: Hell no!

So if that's being over-obedient to God, would refusing be sufficiently obedient?

[halconero]

Except when God told him to murder a passed-out man like a dog in the street.

Nephi's reluctance wasn't about murder but being the one to uphold the capital punishment that Laban deserved under the laws of the time?

Edited July 29, 2013 by halconero

[Storm Rider]

You can be over-obedient to God, too. For example, if God tells you in a dream to take your first-born child up to a mountain, tie him to an alter, chant a prayer, slit his throat and burn him as a human sacrifice to Yahweh, and you do it, then you are over-obedient. My answer if God instructs me to do something barbaric and evil like that: Hell no!

And now we see why so few could ever have filled Abraham's shoes. There are those of us who would simply not respond to God's requests or commands. Our faith is more of the sunny day variety that limits faith to everything that does not require a personal sacrifice. The minute a sacrifice is demanded of us we lose all faith and ignore God.

[Cobalt-70]

You're comparing man's best friend to drunken Laban? C'mon Cobalt! Let's get real.

"Murder" is unlawful killing, and God presumably has final authority over all life, aside from the fact that he authorized a number of killings in the Bible.

And anyhow, it isn't only Laban who loses his head by his own sword. The same thing happened to Goliath while he lay stunned on the field of battle. Lancelot du Lac did the same to Sir Turquine and Sir Phelot, and Beowulf did the same to Grendel.

Indeed, Yale Egyptologist William K. Simpson believes that the Goliath topos is borrowed from the ancient Egyptian tale of Sinuhe, in which Sinuhe must battle a powerful Asiatic hero (B109-145), whom he defeats and kills with that hero’s own battle-axe (B140) -- Simpson, “The Story of Sinuhe,” 59 n. 12, in W. K. Simpson, ed., The Literature of Ancient Egypt, 3^rd ed. (New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 2003), citing G. Lanczkowski, MDAIK, 16 (1958), 214-218. .All this quite aside from the appearance of that same topos in the Bible as an encounter between Elhanan and Lahmi, and between Jonathan and another giant (II Sam 21:19, I Chron 20:5-8) -- how many instances of this motif are there??!

Yes, various mythological stories include a beheading motif. Joseph Smith was certainly familiar with the Goliath myth, but at least the Goliath myth took place during a battle. Smith's own 19th century Laban myth depicted the Christian God as telling Nephi to take the law into his own hands by executing a man in cold blood so that he could impersonate him, steal his property, and kidnap his manservant, all for a "higher purpose." Unlike the ancient myths, this 19th century myth is a justification for vigilante murder, theft, and kidnapping when the ends justify the means. It is breathtakingly relativistic and therefore thoroughly modern, and as such is completely out of place among ancient myths.

[Cobalt-70]

Nephi's reluctance wasn't about murder but being the one to uphold the capital punishment that Laban deserved under the laws of the time?

I went around and started killing American citizens that the Holy Spirit told me were guilty of capital crimes, it would still be murder. Even in 600 BC, there was such a thing as legal process.

[halconero]

I went around and started killing American citizens that the Holy Spirit told me were guilty of capital crimes, it would still be murder. Even in 600 BC, there was such a thing as legal process.

A legal process that would have acquitted Nephi.

[ERayR]

The other day while listening to a podcast, someone on there brought up the fact that in the temple movie it shows Satan offering Adam the apple first. And Adam is the more obedient one and turns him down, and then as everyone knows Eve is the less obedient one because she caves. How come this differs from the bible portrayal. In Genesis it doesn't say Adam was approached by Satan first, only Eve. I wonder why we are shown a different story?

I have an answer that puts Eve in a very favorable position but I refuse to discuss temple content on a discussion board.

[The Nehor]

The other day while listening to a podcast, someone on there brought up the fact that in the temple movie it shows Satan offering Adam the apple first. And Adam is the more obedient one and turns him down, and then as everyone knows Eve is the less obedient one because she caves. How come this differs from the bible portrayal. In Genesis it doesn't say Adam was approached by Satan first, only Eve. I wonder why we are shown a different story?

In the New Testament it is mentioned that Adam was approached first and refused.

[The Nehor]

Who are the kind of people who would obey the voices in their heads that tell them to commit a human sacrifice? These are the Dan and Ron Lafferty types. I don't hold them up as role models. If you think that God tells you to commit a human sacrifice of your firstborn, even if you are 100% certain that you are accurately interpreting your dream or vision, the only right answer is "hell no." If God is going to send me for hell for refusing to perform a human sacrifice, then screw him. Anyone who thinks otherwise is truly a fanatic.

Cool, I am a fanatic. When do I get the deranged wide-eyed look?

[Tacenda]

In the New Testament it is mentioned that Adam was approached first and refused.

Would you be so kind as to point where in the NT it says this? ETA: Never mind, I think I found it.

1 Timothy 2:14

14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, 1fell into transgression.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

My understanding of 2 Timothy Chapter 2. Other interpretations are possible.

[Tacenda]

My understanding of 2 Timothy Chapter 2. Other interpretations are possible.

Got it thanks!!!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Can you be over-obedient in the Church?

No, as any parent knows, no child could be to obedient...OS course said child might be dull. At my age, I am ready thing dull.

[Robert F. Smith]

Having spent the past seven years serving first as Young Men president, then as second counsellor in the bishopric, and now as first counsellor in the bishopric, I have had more than my fill of observing gut-wrenching heartache, loss, confusion, broken families, broken lives, fear, etc. -- all of which could have been easily avoided had people simply followed what we are anxiously attempting to teach them. Sunday last week I broke down and sobbed under the weight of all this needless suffering. When he asked what was wrong, I told the second counsellor, with whom I was processing tithing/offerings, that it was just the weight of some of the sins of our insignificant little corner of the world. 'Imagine being one of the apostles', I said, 'and feeling the burden of all the suffering in the Church that could be avoided just by simple obedience!' At that moment I developed even greater resolve that neither the prophets of the Living God nor the Lord Himself should have cause to look at me, weep, and think, 'I tried so, so hard to save you from this, but you just wouldn't listen'.

Some of us are just slow learners, Hamba, but we really do appreciate the tears -- even as we feel guilty causing them (whether in our parents or our bishopric). I have caused more than my share of tears.

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, various mythological stories include a beheading motif. Joseph Smith was certainly familiar with the Goliath myth, but at least the Goliath myth took place during a battle. Smith's own 19th century Laban myth depicted the Christian God as telling Nephi to take the law into his own hands by executing a man in cold blood so that he could impersonate him, steal his property, and kidnap his manservant, all for a "higher purpose." Unlike the ancient myths, this 19th century myth is a justification for vigilante murder, theft, and kidnapping when the ends justify the means. It is breathtakingly relativistic and therefore thoroughly modern, and as such is completely out of place among ancient myths.

You say that so confidently now, Cobalt. Yet in a thousand years it will simply be another instance of an ancient myth which humans liked to use in their epics -- and will be added to the latest edition of the Motif Index to Literature. What you call "modern" will then be very old.

In addition I note no sense of perspective in your description of the rogue Nephi, who resisted executing Laban. You didn't bother to mention that Laban stole the Lehite family treasure and threatened the lives of the young men who offered it in exchange. They fled in fear for their lives.

You also ignored biblical precedent for executions ordered by God. That is just the sort of thing one expects in special pleading, rather than a frank assessment of fact. Finally, you are asserting that the Book of Mormon is 19th century fiction, which its contents belie. On that basis, perhaps the Bible is merely ancient fiction.

[rpn]

Isn't obedience without seeking personal revelation not just dangerous, but also lazy? It is development of the relationship with and submission to His will that is our goal, after all, not the doing of the various things we are told to do. Doing what you are told to do isn't the kind of following that changes hearts and makes souls into everything they can/should/are destined to be.

[ERayR]

Can you do too much good? Can you do too much service?

Edited August 1, 2013 by ERayR

[Hamba Tuhan]

Some of us are just slow learners, Hamba, but we really do appreciate the tears -- even as we feel guilty causing them (whether in our parents or our bishopric). I have caused more than my share of tears.

As have I, my brother. But I'd like to cause no more.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan