Lds Missionary Stephen Ward ...

[Gervin]

... just got a testimony for life (Spain train accident survivor).

[Calm]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/25/mormon-missionary-from-utah-among-survivors-spain-train-wreck/

[Kenngo1969]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/25/mormon-missionary-from-utah-among-survivors-spain-train-wreck/

Kinda puts things into perspective.

This missionary, long since fully recovered: "How's it [whatever 'it' is] going?"

Person B: [sighing heavily] "Oh, you wouldn't believe it! Things are such a train wreck right now!"

This missionary: [smiling, which is rather puzzling to Person A] "No, no. Let me tell you about train wrecks. You see, I was in one once ..."

[Thinking]

...just got a testimony for life (Spain train accident survivor).

What does surviving a train wreck have to do with getting a testimony for life?

[halconero]

I can't decide if this guy has the best or the worst of luck.

Gets cancer, beats it. Finds out he can serve 1 year earlier than expected. Goes to Spain, first day out of the MTC gets in a train wreck. Breaks a bunch of bones, but lives.

[Gervin]

What does surviving a train wreck have to do with getting a testimony for life?

I certainly didn't mean it in a pejorative sense. A better way to state it might have been, "believer has experience that will be a testimony to God's grace" or something like that. Didn't mean to offend.

[canard78]

... just got a testimony for life (Spain train accident survivor).

Edit:

This has been moved out of the 'Discussions' forum and into the Social Hall I'll not debate this further, out of respect for what the Social Hall is for.

Apologies to anyone who felt I was mocking or devaluing the gift of life offered to this young man. That was not my intention. Given it had been opened in the 'debating' room I thought it reasonable to explore the ideas of whether God intervenes and if so, why it is done for some and not others.

I was involved in a long thread on this last year: .

------------------------------------------------

It's a great experience and I'm sure he'll be incredibly grateful for the gift of more life.

I sorry to put a 'downer' on this good news but I have issues with the concept that some are protected by guardian angels and others aren't.

If God intervenes, and many are convinced he does, why does he only do it some of the time? Why does a God who is supposed to be 'no respecter of persons' or in other words 'doesn't show favouritism' still seem to pick and chose the people who are sent a guardian angel or given a facilitating opportunity?

In London earlier this year a helicopter crashed into a crane. Miraculously, for the first time ever, the crane driver had overslept because his young boys hadn't woken him as usual. A brilliant coincidence for him. He, and probably many others, thanked divine intervention for saving him from almost certain death. Some people I know speculated that perhaps his guardian angels made his sons over-sleep.

And yet... the helicopter pilot was not afforded the same protection. He died in the crash. Ahah, came the reply, maybe he brought it on himself. God has to respect agency. OK... final question. What about the pedestrian who was walking by who happened, by poor bad fortune, to be in the exact place where the crane and helicopter fell and also died in the accident. Where was his guardian angel? It wouldn't have needed much. A distraction of a few seconds. A shoe needing relacing. A missed bus. A dropped newspaper. All of these could have been enough of an intervention to have saved him. Why was he ignored and the crane driver was saved?

Edited July 27, 2013 by canard78

[teddyaware]

It's a great experience and I'm sure he'll be incredibly grateful for the gift of more life.

I sorry to put a 'downer' on this good news but I have issues with the concept that some are protected by guardian angels and others aren't.

If God intervenes, and many are convinced he does, why does he only do it some of the time? Why does a God who is supposed to be 'no respecter of persons' or in other words 'doesn't show favouritism' still seem to pick and chose the people who are sent a guardian angel or given a facilitating opportunity?

In London earlier this year a helicopter crashed into a crane. Miraculously, for the first time ever, the crane driver had overslept because his young boys hadn't woken him as usual. A brilliant coincidence for him. He, and probably many others, thanked divine intervention for saving him from almost certain death. Some people I know speculated that perhaps his guardian angels made his sons over-sleep.

And yet... the helicopter pilot was not afforded the same protection. He died in the crash. Ahah, came the reply, maybe he brought it on himself. God has to respect agency. OK... final question. What about the pedestrian who was walking by who happened, by poor bad fortune, to be in the exact place where the crane and helicopter fell and also died in the accident. Where was his guardian angel? It wouldn't have needed much. A distraction of a few seconds. A shoe needing relacing. A missed bus. A dropped newspaper. All of these could have been enough of an intervention to have saved him. Why was he ignored and the crane driver was saved?

Congratulations.

[cdowis]

If God intervenes, and many are convinced he does, why does he only do it some of the time? Why does a God who is supposed to be 'no respecter of persons' or in other words 'doesn't show favouritism' still seem to pick and chose the people who are sent a guardian angel or given a facilitating opportunity?

An interesting question.

I will give you a personal experience that may give us some insight.

My uncle was in a nursing home in a distant state and I had no contact with him for years. One day I had an impression that he needed help, to put his name on the temple roll. And I did so for several weeks. I then got an impression that everything was ok and stopped. It was a year later that I got the full story, that he was suddenly suffering terrible pain and nothing could help him. After a week or so it suddenly stopped.

I came to the realization that the Lord wanted to help him but could/would not without an act of faith in his behalf. I have had several similar experiences. In one case I was praying every day for someone, and one day was impressed "It is enough". The very next day the person passed on.

These experiences may not answer your question, but for me it gives some insight on how the Lord does things. This missionary had the faith and prayers of many others to protect him, and sometimes the Lord respects that faith.... sometimes.....

[CV75]

Why does a God who is supposed to be 'no respecter of persons' or in other words 'doesn't show favouritism' still seem to pick and chose the people who are sent a guardian angel or given a facilitating opportunity?

Because He does so in to fulfil His higher purposes, which are in the best interests of each child at that moment in time, without favoritism. We don't know most of these details as they pertain to others, and He may have well done the same for us without our knowing it.

[Gervin]

I sorry to put a 'downer' on this good news but I have issues with the concept that some are protected by guardian angels and others aren't.

I think most folks with some form of faith can point to experience(s) of seemingly miraculous intervention, as well as feelings of abandonment or worse.

If all we're about is emulating an example of love, which I believe is primarily what we are asked to do, then faith comes by giving God the glory under the former (as opposed to taking credit or claiming some insider status) and giving God the glory under the latter (as opposed to finding fault or despair). People of faith under these latter circumstances have more to give us, on many different levels.

[bluebell]

It's a great experience and I'm sure he'll be incredibly grateful for the gift of more life.

I sorry to put a 'downer' on this good news but I have issues with the concept that some are protected by guardian angels and others aren't.

If God intervenes, and many are convinced he does, why does he only do it some of the time? Why does a God who is supposed to be 'no respecter of persons' or in other words 'doesn't show favouritism' still seem to pick and chose the people who are sent a guardian angel or given a facilitating opportunity?

In London earlier this year a helicopter crashed into a crane. Miraculously, for the first time ever, the crane driver had overslept because his young boys hadn't woken him as usual. A brilliant coincidence for him. He, and probably many others, thanked divine intervention for saving him from almost certain death. Some people I know speculated that perhaps his guardian angels made his sons over-sleep.

And yet... the helicopter pilot was not afforded the same protection. He died in the crash. Ahah, came the reply, maybe he brought it on himself. God has to respect agency. OK... final question. What about the pedestrian who was walking by who happened, by poor bad fortune, to be in the exact place where the crane and helicopter fell and also died in the accident. Where was his guardian angel? It wouldn't have needed much. A distraction of a few seconds. A shoe needing relacing. A missed bus. A dropped newspaper. All of these could have been enough of an intervention to have saved him. Why was he ignored and the crane driver was saved?

Because sometimes we aren't meant to be saved.

Death comes to us all. But God is in charge of the timing.

[Gervin]

"From a religious standpoint, I'd like to say that God has something in store for me and that there's a reason I'm still here," Stephen Ward said in a phone interview with The Associated Press from La Coruna, Spain. "I count myself very lucky and very blessed to have been able to survive so many things."

[Ahab]

If God intervenes, and many are convinced he does, why does he only do it some of the time?

Every good thought everyone has is coming from God, or came from God, or is the same thought God would have if he considered a situation and all of the circumstances, followed by the same actions God would make if in the same situation.

Second, on that basis, anytime anyone does what God would do in the same situation and circumstances they are acting for and in behalf of God, and it is then the same as if it is God doing it.

Thus, anytime anything good happens it is because God has intervened, or God has been involved, even when giving someone else a thought which they act on to do what God would do in the same situation.

God doesn't do everything for us that we can do for ourselves, don't cha know. Sometimes he gives someone else a thought which they then choose to act on by doing what he would do, but a person who gets a thought from God can still choose to do what God wouldnt do, and thus we are affected by people who do things opposed to God's will.

For example, someone who murders someone else receives a thought from God that they shouldn't do that, with the person who murders basically ignoring that thought from God. It's not that God didn't intervene, because he did by giving that person the thought not to murder someone, but the person still chose to murder someone anyway in opposition to the counsel of God.

[teddyaware]

I think most folks with some form of faith can point to experience(s) of seemingly miraculous intervention, as well as feelings of abandonment or worse.

If all we're about is emulating an example of love, which I believe is primarily what we are asked to do, then faith comes by giving God the glory under the former (as opposed to taking credit or claiming some insider status) and giving God the glory under the latter (as opposed to finding fault or despair). People of faith under these latter circumstances have more to give us, on many different levels.

The answer to canard's question is found in the scriptures. But if one doesn't believe the accounts in the scriptures, considering them to be mostly myth, it will be difficult for that person to have a meaningful discussion with someone else who does believe the scriptural accounts of divine deliverance from danger and death.

The scriptural narratives of divine deliverance are legion, with so many to mention that one doesn't quite know where to start. But to cite just four of them, I'll mention the accounts of Daniel in the lion's den and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace of fire in the Bible, and the deliverance of Alma and Amulek from the prison in Ammonihah and the miraculous losing of the cords that bound Nephi and subsequent calming of the raging, threatening sea in the Book of Mormon.

When an individual casts doubt on the principle of divine intercession unto deliverance, he does so in contradiction to the scriptures. When one asks, "why are some miraculously saved and others are not?" it reminds me of the momentous occasion when the enemies of Christ, who taunted Him while He suffered on the cross, asked:

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. (Matt 27)

So it would seem God truly is no respecter of persons. After all, Jesus Christ is God's own beloved only begotten Son; yet, rather than intervene, God caused His holy, innocent Son to suffer more than they all.

So the answer to our question is that there are occasions, in the wisdom of God, when some must be miraculously saved by divine intervention, and there are other occasions when God, in His infinite wisdom, does intervene unto deliverance.

Edited July 26, 2013 by teddyaware

[Mark Beesley]

If God intervenes, and many are convinced he does, why does he only do it some of the time? Why does a God who is supposed to be 'no respecter of persons' or in other words 'doesn't show favouritism' still seem to pick and chose the people who are sent a guardian angel or given a facilitating opportunity?

God is no respecter of persons in that every person has, or will have, equal opportunity for salvation and exaltation. It does not mean we all get the same treatment in mortality. To be able to really understand and accept 'why,' one would have to be able to see the beginning and the end and not just the present, which is what we are limited to.

[WmLaw]

It was tragic that 78 people died and 36 were seriously injured. I'm happy that there were so many survivors.

I don't think its fair to try drawing any conclusions about who was being watched over and who wasn't.

[ALarson]

It was tragic that 78 people died and 36 were seriously injured. I'm happy that there were so many survivors.

I don't think its fair to try drawing any conclusions about who was being watched over and who wasn't.

Exactly.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865582049/LDS-missionary-killed-in-electrical-accident-in-Guatemala.html?pg=all

And another recent death of a missionary serving in Guatemala:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865583532/Mormon-missionary-serving-in-Guatemala-dies-after-vehicle-accident.html

My heart goes out to all of these families. I'm grateful the elder involved in the train crash survived, but I think it causes great pain for the families of those who've lost a loved one who is serving a mission to ever suggest they weren't being watched over. I know that no one is saying that, but I also know I'd be sensitive about this if I were in their shoes.

[ERMD]

It's a great experience and I'm sure he'll be incredibly grateful for the gift of more life.

I sorry to put a 'downer' on this good news but I have issues with the concept that some are protected by guardian angels and others aren't.

If God intervenes, and many are convinced he does, why does he only do it some of the time? Why does a God who is supposed to be 'no respecter of persons' or in other words 'doesn't show favouritism' still seem to pick and chose the people who are sent a guardian angel or given a facilitating opportunity?

In London earlier this year a helicopter crashed into a crane. Miraculously, for the first time ever, the crane driver had overslept because his young boys hadn't woken him as usual. A brilliant coincidence for him. He, and probably many others, thanked divine intervention for saving him from almost certain death. Some people I know speculated that perhaps his guardian angels made his sons over-sleep.

And yet... the helicopter pilot was not afforded the same protection. He died in the crash. Ahah, came the reply, maybe he brought it on himself. God has to respect agency. OK... final question. What about the pedestrian who was walking by who happened, by poor bad fortune, to be in the exact place where the crane and helicopter fell and also died in the accident. Where was his guardian angel? It wouldn't have needed much. A distraction of a few seconds. A shoe needing relacing. A missed bus. A dropped newspaper. All of these could have been enough of an intervention to have saved him. Why was he ignored and the crane driver was saved?

Why did Christ raise some from the dead and not others?

[jwhitlock]

After reading the same kind of "he was insensitive by saying God saved him" accusations in the comments on another news story on the train wreck, I was astounded - and rather nauseated - at the lengths the mockers and haters will go to in order to denigrate this young man. Some people will use any situation as "proof" that there is no God, while those of us who think a bit more deeply about such things and seek to find out what is really going on, understand that an eternal perspective is absolutely necessary in order to make sense of such things. And for those who humbly search, sense can be made of these situations.

People are sinking to new lows in such hateful accusations. To claim in any way that this missionary, through his comments, meant that those who died had no purpose or were inferior in God's sight is an accusation founded in hate and not in understanding.

[canard78]

This has been moved out of the 'Discussions' forum and into the Social Hall I'll not debate this further, out of respect for what the Social Hall is for.

Apologies to anyone who felt I was mocking or devaluing the gift of life offered to this young man. That was not my intention. Given it had been opened in the 'debating' room I thought it reasonable to explore the ideas of whether God intervenes and if so, why it is done for some and not others.

I was involved in a long thread on this last year: .