Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants

[Tacenda]

Hi BD, thanks for your participation. I enjoyed reading your post.

As it happens, I don't really believe in borderline cases either. It was an analogy to argue against the concept of three distinct kingdoms (or "body types" which some had been) and the problems with it. I suppose I argued that to the point of it sounding like I also believe it.

I agree we are all in (as you said) "a process of becoming."

I personally don't believe in 3 distinct kingdoms. I consider the sun/moon/stars analogy to be no more than figurative.

I'm not sure I fully understand your species example though. That still seems to presume that humanity can be divided into three (or more?) classes? Not sure how that would work?

I never knew that JS may have gotten the idea from Swedenborg before my FC. And it made me take pause, or want to bolt. But there's a possibility they both had revelations, but there were differences. Here is this paper about it. http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/doctrine-and-covenants-revelations-context/7-joseph-smith-emanuel-swedenborg-and-section-76

[BlueDreams]

Hi BD, thanks for your participation. I enjoyed reading your post.

As it happens, I don't really believe in borderline cases either. It was an analogy to argue against the concept of three distinct kingdoms (or "body types" which some had been) and the problems with it. I suppose I argued that to the point of it sounding like I also believe it.

I didn't think you believed it personally....I was aware that you were arguing what you saw as problems with 3 distinct bodies. The problem I had with this and your other assumptions is that one can see another feasible image of 3 kingdoms/distinct bodies that we cannot progress from without these assumptions. Basically I find your case weak on the two points that I don't see a lot of scriptural support for it and I don't think the problems you've brought up against distinct 3k's are accurate...but rather a poor mix of basic lds cultural depictions of heaven (which are full of over-simplified analogies). I focused more on the latter.

I agree we are all in (as you said) "a process of becoming."

I personally don't believe in 3 distinct kingdoms. I consider the sun/moon/stars analogy to be no more than figurative.

As do I on the figurative part. How we view that figurative analogy is the difference. I view it as a measure of capacity and responsibility and personally have similar ideas as Cal and freedom.. But I think how it is symbolically referenced is important in understanding the distinctions mentioned.

I'm not sure I fully understand your species example though. That still seems to presume that humanity can be divided into three (or more?) classes? Not sure how that would work?

The species thing was to point out that you can use an analogy that did not have to have a gradient of humanity per se....where you could have distinction without the idea that someone could miss the CK by a hair.

Again, for me, it's a measure of responsibility and capacity. It would not be a measure of class, per se....at least not in the earthly sense.

D&C 76

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

This is also why the ideal of literally separated kingdoms does not fly for me. It's not simply that one kingdom gets the Father and another visitation rights from Jesus and another the HG. It's a a greater and greater call to serve others.

Also as describing a lower kingdom as a form of punishment, the depiction of even the least is described a verse or two later as "surpasses all understanding" and 88 points to the fact that they are all described as "heirs of salvation." The lowest kingdom of glory is still the Glory of God and beyond all that we currently have here on earth in understanding. It is not punishment it is a descriptor of ability to abide the laws of God. In D&C 88 21-25 it describes the designation as whether or not someone is able to abide the law of a certain kingdom. Those in the CK are "sanctified through the law." I find the use of the word able as important and a major reason why i see the kingdoms as defining capacity. They are not able to abide a certain law but are able to abide another. The earth (which will be celestial) helps to give a simple definition: filling the measure of it's creation and transgresses not the law. This life is our time to prepare to meet God. There are no scriptures that describe an ability to prepare to meet God after final judgment. That's the purpose of this life (including mortality up until resurrection) and the measure of our creation is this spiritual preparation to receive all and not just the promise of all. Final judgment is the time in which we begin to receive our inheritance.

Further in 88 it describes the process as being the bodies being resurrected by being "quickened by a portion" of whichever kingdom we are able to abide. Whatever kingdom we receive it is described as "even a fullness." No person is incomplete that is brought to even the least degree of the Glory of God. All are brought to a fullness. That fullness is defined by what they have prepared themselves to receive and this defines their capacity as well as their desires. Further it also describes those who can't/won't abide any law as they cannot "be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment." Which, to me, also points to the fact that whoever can abide by any law will be sanctified by it. This is all of their sanctification and their cleansing. All degrees are still a reception of the same light none will be unhappy from their place as they have defined where their place is by declaring their true desires. They will all receive a fullness. But the "bounds and conditions" of that fullness is defined by what kingdom they receive for themselves.

I won't pretend to know what all this will fully entail in the end. The scriptures make it quite clear that even a fraction of an understanding of it is mind-blowing in our current reference. But I prefer to go with what is defined and given to set my parameters for what to expect. And I simply do not see enough support for the idea that we can progress between kingdoms after we've received our glory.

With luv,

BD

Edited July 11, 2013 by BlueDreams

[stemelbow]

There is tremendous emphasis placed upon us in mortality to become saved. The interesting thing about it though is that probably only about 1% or less of all who ever lived on earth had the correct opportunity to accept Christ and repent and become baptised. If mortality really was "the big test" why so few who could actually have access to the real truth and accept? My opinion is that in the millennium is when the real work will happen to bring about the salvation of souls.

hmmm...perhaps. But, I also wonder how much other things abotu life besides the principles and ordinances are the real factors in salvation. That is God works on the individual without the Church in Chad just as much as he does you or I. The ordinances just become a formality. Thus, this person in Chad may not be baptized until the millennium but the work of salvation for him has already been accomplished.

There are just too many circumstances that happen in mortality for folks to be judged for all eternity- not really right or fair. The decisions we do make though will have some temporary rewards or punishments after death but the real basis for oir judgment in eternity will not happen until after the millennium and every soul has had ample opportunity to repent and become converted to Christ.

When it happens isn't important on this point, though. It's why and how it happens, IMO. The person who lived on Pitcairn island hundreds of years ago and was eaten by another person before he/she could live much of a life might have gained exactly what that person needed from life just as much as you or I.

[Questing Beast]

There is no indication that the prodigal son received that which belonged to the loyal son.

True we do it to ourselves. It is equally true that God will force no man to Heaven.

There is also no indication that the two brothers ended up disassociated and in different places or separated from their father. Maybe that's the biggest point to make when we are talking about "eternal families". This notion that Mormons have that "lower glory" family members will somehow live in a different/separate place is not correct....

[DBMormon]

The word "saved" does not necessarily imply gaining the Celestial Kingdom. As the old saying goes salvation without exaltation is damnation. Do you have any specific authority for the ability to gain the Celestial Kingdom once assigned a lesser Kingdom and having received a non-Celestial body?

Elder McConkie taught that the Slavation the scriptures speak of is in almost every instance the exaltation the Saints seek for. Gerald Lund agreed with him as well.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvation-by-grace-or-by-works

The second typical explanation goes something like this: The fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world—physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit, and spiritual death, which is separation of man from God. The atonement of Christ overcame physical death through the Resurrection. This is salvation by grace because it comes to all men automatically and does not depend on what kinds of lives they have lived. But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into God’s presence, we must be obedient to laws and principles. This is exaltation by works. Thus, according to this explanation, we are saved by grace andexalted by works.

This is an appealing explanation because it seems to provide a logical argument that fits the statements of Paul neatly into it. However, there is a doctrinal error involved here. While the resurrection of the dead is certainly an integral part of the plan of salvation, and is unconditional and independent of men’s works, the term salvation as used in the scriptures does not mean physical resurrection alone. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie has pointed out, salvation is synonymous with exaltation:

“Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation oreternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek.” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 670.)

[Questing Beast]

...

I won't pretend to know what all this will fully entail in the end. The scriptures make it quite clear that even a fraction of an understanding of it is mind-blowing in our current reference. But I prefer to go with what is defined and given to set my parameters for what to expect. And I simply do not see enough support for the idea that we can progress between kingdoms after we've received our glory.

With luv,

BD

That term, "between kingdoms", keeps getting used, as if they are separate places, like separated dimensions or somesuch. We have no evidence from scripture for separation of family members from one another in the afterlife. We do have Mormon expectations, mostly related to how we view the temple and "saving ordinances". In order to "get into" the CK, you must accept all the ordinances. Those who do not will be at best the "lowest" in the CK, and "damned", which is interpreted to mean, "their kingdom hath an end, there can be no increase", etc. It is a crappy exegesis of the scripture, imho.

What makes sense to me is to assume that, as in the cosmos, all of us will associate in the same "venue", just at differing capacities for knowledge of the things of "God". No mortal returning to immortality will be "the smartest", or the least intelligent. The infinity of souls determines that there is no hierarchy outside of "God". "God" explicitly stated that "I am more intelligent than they all", after showing that where one intellect exists, there will be another more intelligent. This means that our shared ignorance will also be eternal, for "God" is Infinite and Creation is also. From my eternal perspective, I will be able to see souls less intelligent than I and more intelligent forever. No "intelligence envy". Therefore no "glory envy" either. Our glory is to be different from every other "glory", no two precisely alike, and only "God" knows the "something about you" that affords the most delight about each one of us. If that delight is shared with us, as we meet and get to know each other, that seems like a pure gift to me....

Edited July 11, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Stone holm]

Yes, thats the mormon doctrine we teah every sunday at church. I dont believe this doctrine but it is precisely what we teach

Have to disagree. The teachings are that you go to Spirit Prison to complete whatever repentance did not take place here, but that does not necessarily mean you are disqualifid for the Celestial Kingdom in the final judgment and resurrection.

[Stone holm]

I think we have this backwards. We get our body and then this determines our judgement. "Our glory is the glory by which our bodies are quickened". Not we earn a glory and then get a body to match.

Not sure I understand this comment, want to take another stab at it?

[BlueDreams]

That term, "between kingdoms", keeps getting used, as if they are separate places, like separated dimensions or somesuch. We have no evidence from scripture for separation of family members from one another in the afterlife. We do have Mormon expectations, mostly related to how we view the temple and "saving ordinances". In order to "get into" the CK, you must accept all the ordinances. Those who do not will be at best the "lowest" in the CK, and "damned", which is interpreted to mean, "their kingdom hath an end, there can be no increase", etc. It is a crappy exegesis of the scripture, imho

I can't tell if you're talking about me specifically or another person. But when I say "between kingdoms" I don't necessarily picture separated places though I'm sure others do. Just want to clarify in case you did think that.

With luv,

BD

[Questing Beast]

I can't tell if you're talking about me specifically or another person. But when I say "between kingdoms" I don't necessarily picture separated places though I'm sure others do. Just want to clarify in case you did think that.

With luv,

BD

How do you use "between" then?

Only separated "places" have space between. In like manner, separated souls can exist empirically within view/contact of each other, yet remain separate, as we experience now. We are ALONE. And in the eternities we remain ALONE. To assume that a further separation into "places/kingdoms of glory" occurs is just asserting a fact without knowledge to back it up....

[Freedom]

Interesting perspective. But I do not view this life as an exam, test or evaluation. I don't there are any tests at all. I consider it to all be part of the continuum. This is a chapter in our eternal existence.

I don't believe in borderline pass of fails either, as I don't believe in 3 distinct degrees with 'fences' around them. I consider it all a process of development. Like I said, a continuum.

Well, you may not consider it to be an test but LDS doctrine defines it as such.

[Stone holm]

Well, you may not consider it to be an test but LDS doctrine defines it as such.

agree

[BlueDreams]

How do you use "between" then?

Only separated "places" have space between. In like manner, separated souls can exist empirically within view/contact of each other, yet remain separate, as we experience now. We are ALONE. And in the eternities we remain ALONE. To assume that a further separation into "places/kingdoms of glory" occurs is just asserting a fact without knowledge to back it up....

No it doesn't. I can be between age groups, between getting different degrees in school, between marriage and being single, etc. It indicates a distinction and bridging between those distinctions, Whether the between is a life event, a process of development, or actual place.

And the presumption about being alone and further aloneness is odd...i'm not following nor do i see the connection to the points I've made. My point was that we all are apart of God's glory/Kingdom, no matter what degree we receive. That these distinctions will be definite but do not have to designate different places or furthered alone-ness or whichever. But that whatever degree of glory we receive it will be a fullness unto us, fitting of our desires and acceptance/reception of God, and based on this earth and that the distinction, scripturally speaking, indicates more that it'll be definitive of capacity and as great as between the sun, moon, and stars. That's my point. Whether it's all one place or multiple isn't clear, though I personally lean that heaven is all one large place and all kingdoms are apart of heaven.

With luv,

BD

Edited July 11, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Rob Osborn]

Have to disagree. The teachings are that you go to Spirit Prison to complete whatever repentance did not take place here, but that does not necessarily mean you are disqualifid for the Celestial Kingdom in the final judgment and resurrection.

So you disagree with mormon doctrine too then. Hete is official mormon doctrine-

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

[Calm]

So you disagree with mormon doctrine too then. Hete is official mormon doctrine-

http://www.lds.org/m...dgment?lang=eng

Please identify the specific part you think supports your position.

Here's mine:

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

[Freedom]

So you disagree with mormon doctrine too then. Hete is official mormon doctrine-

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

"Through the work we do in temples, all people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory."

Those who did not have the gospel but would have lived it if they had the chance will go to the spirit prison where they will taught the gospel and given the opportunity to repent fully and thereby receive celestial glory. Is this not what we teach?

[Rob Osborn]

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73–79.)

That is the official position of the church. I disagree with this teaching because of the obvious but nevertheless it is our doctrine.

[Calm]

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73–79.)

This does not say that all those who are in the spirit prison belong in this category, as demonstrated by what I quoted above. Edited July 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Freedom]

You have to consider your entire quote:

1) These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world

2) These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men.

3) These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant.

4)They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father

this definition does not encompass whose who did not reject the gospel and were not blinded by the craftiness of men and who were valiant in the testimony that they understood yet still were sent to the spirit prison because that is where people go to wait for their ordinances to be completed.

[canard78]

Well, you may not consider it to be an test but LDS doctrine defines it as such.

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Is life a test or series of hurdles set by a God looking to make life increasingly difficult to test our diligence? I don’t see it to be so. Gold is not put through the fire to see if it is weak or to try to break it but to enhance it, improve it and make it stronger or purer.

[Stone holm]

So you disagree with mormon doctrine too then. Hete is official mormon doctrine-

http://www.lds.org/m...dgment?lang=eng

No I think you are confusing the judgment which occurs at death with the final judgment, they are two different things. Some time spent in Spirit Prison does not mean you will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom in the final judgment.

[Maidservant]

Well if that works for you fine, but that's not the the Mormon concept of Heavenly Father. However, it does involve His Son giving His life for His brothers and sisters which is kind of the same thing.

Mosiah 15:1 (or 1-4)

(Telestial, the world in which we now live)

I don't know how it could be more plain.

We live in the Telestial world.

We are being administered to by the Holy Ghost.

We are commanded to become celestial.

Extremely plain.

unless "final" has an more nuanced meaning then we currently understand.....

'Final' as a term is always nuanced. Just because someone plays the final quarter of a basketball game, for example, doesn't mean that they will never play a basketball game again.

We are involved in a grand project of this earth life. There will be a completion (finale) to it.

It doesn't mean there can be nothing of any sort thereafter.

That is why the judgments passed at the Final Judgement will be permanent.

The word permanent is never used in scripture as far as I know (willing to be corrected). And the word final does not mean permanent. The final credits (still watch another movie). The final test (will still take another class). The graduation ceremony (goes on to college). Final means culmination or end. It does not mean permanent and never did. To read it out that way is an addition to what it actually says.

However, knowing the same things doesn't mean that they know them the same way. One soul's knowledge must be like a unique "flavor", and the other's also. By knowing each other, each knows something more about God, something unique and wonderful. And by such endless associations throughout eternity, each sapient soul learns more and more about God and the world of humans we are part of and participate in. Forever. So there is no "progression between kingdoms of glory" going on, only infinitely variable beings of infinitely nuanced intelligence, discovering as much about God as God can reveal. There is no separation of "families" at all. Greater intelligences condescend to the level of lesser intelligences to "minister" to them, i.e. teach of the greater knowledge that they have, as much as the capacity of the lesser intelligences is capable of receiving it. And that capacity must grow with knowledge. But no matter how much one intelligence increases, all others are likewise increasing.

1 Corinthians 13:12

If you are correct, this life doesn't seem to mean near as much as we've always seemed to suggest.

This is a natural question, but life becomes precious for its own sake.

And we seem to have this perspective that GOD did this (earth life) TO us (however willing we might have been), but the longer I ponder things, the more I realize that we did this to ourselves. We came here and we understood thoroughly and chose deliberately to pass through this veil called earth life. Our souls are being refined by our experiences.

We all have known hell. We are not strangers to it. We have all been redeemed. We are not strangers to that. No one can receive or become without having 'overcome' (see parable of Ten Virgins and D&C 76) (no free passes).

But a trial and its treasure are integral to each other and cannot be separated. That is--I will not have the celestial kingdom later, decades later, after death later, because I married in the temple. My marriage is the trial AND the treasure--at the same time. I will receive the miracle (of marriage) from the trial of my faith (of marriage). I will have the celestial kingdom every day of my life that I live in ever-increasing love and unity with my spouse--no one can remove that from me. Because even when I would get my spouse back in a resurrection, we would pick up where we left off--not have any prize we didn't already plant the seed for. (Alma 41, speaking of restoration)

Lucifer lost his first estate by one decision.

You don't think there was more to it? Maybe another thread, hmm.

[Freedom]

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Is life a test or series of hurdles set by a God looking to make life increasingly difficult to test our diligence? I don’t see it to be so. Gold is not put through the fire to see if it is weak or to try to break it but to enhance it, improve it and make it stronger or purer.

I think you are splitting hairs. The test is the refiners fire - to see if we will endure it or not.

This life is a probationary state, a time to prepare to meet god.

I may prove them,whether they will walk in my law: Ex. 16:4 .

God is come to prove you: Ex. 20:20

that ye may be tried: Rev. 2:10 .

we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things: Abr. 3:25 .

[BlueDreams]

You don't think there was more to it? Maybe another thread, hmm.

No, I'm sure there was. My point was more that time, however short or long is irrelevant, it is about the choices we make and who we decide to become/follow that matters. This time that we have is essential for us we are taught that it is enough and that all will have opportunity to accept or reject it.

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

I think you are splitting hairs. The test is the refiners fire - to see if we will endure it or not.

But by enduring it we are refined...the test alters us as it tests us.

So it is not a test in the way an exam that demonstrates our level of knowledge or skill is, it is more like a test that involves the entire class, including participation in discussion and such because through such participation our knowledge and confidence and skill increases or refined...though in the case of the test of mortality it is much, much more that is refined, our very soul, all that we are if we endure the test to the end and do not drop out and settle for less.

Edited July 12, 2013 by calmoriah