Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants

[thesometimesaint]

I agree with you. I'm only saying that on the other side, I'll always welcome a prodigal son home. He'll always be welcome under my roof. That's the kind of loving God I believe in. There is no "sorry, you're too late, you didn't repent soon enough according to my timeline, so you have to live in some other house and I won't visit you." The only ones who will continue to be separated from God in the next world are those who continue to exclude themselves.

I view as we are willing to accept Gods' presence in varying degrees. It isn't that he stops loving us, but even he will not force us to be with him.

[Spammer]

I view as we are willing to accept Gods' presence in varying degrees. It isn't that he stops loving us, but even he will not force us to be with him.

Yes, I agree.

[Rob Osborn]

I personally enjoy the idea that we will be able to progress after our mortality no matter what degree of salvation we are granted. but it's a tough thing to square with the teachings that are spoken and discussed each Sunday. I can only hope I guess. It's hard to square the notion with the idea that God continues to mourn for those that are lost. If there is nothing but opportunity for any old murder who finds himself in the Telestial realm, then it can't be so bad that God would weep for that one--particulary since he well knows that most of us won't be attaining a celestial glory based on our mortal faith and such.

Its hard to take seriously, as well, the proclamation that the Church is true and only through it's authorized ordinances can we be exalted. There's nothing to stop us if we decide not to go the temple, for instance. We'll end up in a great place with nothing but opportunity ahead of us either way.

There are too many things that just don't seem to add up if unlimited progress were possible for all. Then again, if unlimited progress were not possible for all, then that itself is a miserable thought.

My personal belief is that God will not stop his work with each of us until we are all like him- exalted Gods.

[stemelbow]

My personal belief is that God will not stop his work with each of us until we are all like him- exalted Gods.

I like your idea, but then why place so much emphasis on this life? Why spend so much on resources for temple work and missionary work?

If you are correct, this life doesn't seem to mean near as much as we've always seemed to suggest.

[Stone holm]

Well, in LDS doctrine, if one delays his repentance until after death then he cannot reach the celestial kingdom. That is the definition of a little more rebellious.

Ah you mean if you take a short trip to the spirit prison that ex-cons aren't welcome in the Celestial Kingdom?

[WmLaw]

And what if Final Judgement actually has a specific and narrow theological meaning, that is "Final Judgement" is the judgement that grants one access to the Celestial Kingdom.

This woud also allow many and multiple judgements (change in kingdoms perhaps) to occur prior to the "Final Judgement".

Interesting concept.

[Freedom]

With some perspective, we must appreciate that we have existed for countless trillions of years. Our nature was established well before this universe even existed. We will end up where we are most happy. This live, and only this life, is where we are sent to live according to our wills and pleasures. The wills and pleasures that we have established for such a long time that we have no way to measure it other than to say for ever ago. The fact that, despite our eternal nature, we must still be compelled to bend the knee has no bearing on the limitations we want to put on our immeasurable future.

Those who failed their first estate, namely Satan and his follows, will be forever cast from the glory virtually every mortal may receive. Those who fail their second estate will also be forever cast out from the glory those willing to live a celestial law may receive. For all we know, their could be a 3rd and a 4th estate. I may arrive in the celestial kingdom and be presented with even yet a higher law that I may not want to follow. I may reach the height of my eternal potential and be quite content.

I am certain that we did not arrive in mortality until we had a full understanding of the consequences.

[Calm]

Well, in LDS doctrine, if one delays his repentance until after death then he cannot reach the celestial kingdom. That is the definition of a little more rebellious.

CFR please

[Calm]

Yes, I agree.

Me too (out of points)

[Calm]

And what if Final Judgement actually has a specific and narrow theological meaning, that is "Final Judgement" is the judgement that grants one access to the Celestial Kingdom.

This woud also allow many and multiple judgements (change in kingdoms perhaps) to occur prior to the "Final Judgement".

I was thinking this too, after all we are resurrected prior to the Final Judgment so our bodies may be able to be changed from 'generic' to Telestial up to Celestial as our hearts and mind continue to grow and alter and become more one with the Father and Son.

[Calm]

Yet in the Resurrection we will definitely be given our bodies appropriate to the Kingdom to which we belong. It is not God that says it's too late. It is we whom choose. God will not force any man to Heaven.

But the Final Judgment does not come until after Resurrection so if one allowed the body to undergo changes and not be frozen at a certain level of perfection....and it would seem to me that if there is progress within an kingdom as has been taught by even those who say there is not outside of a kingdom, than the resurrected body must allow for some change at least and if some change, why not complete change? Edited July 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

With some perspective, we must appreciate that we have existed for countless trillions of years. Our nature was established well before this universe even existed. We will end up where we are most happy. This live, and only this life, is where we are sent to live according to our wills and pleasures. The wills and pleasures that we have established for such a long time that we have no way to measure it other than to say for ever ago. The fact that, despite our eternal nature, we must still be compelled to bend the knee has no bearing on the limitations we want to put on our immeasurable future.

Those who failed their first estate, namely Satan and his follows, will be forever cast from the glory virtually every mortal may receive. Those who fail their second estate will also be forever cast out from the glory those willing to live a celestial law may receive. For all we know, their could be a 3rd and a 4th estate. I may arrive in the celestial kingdom and be presented with even yet a higher law that I may not want to follow. I may reach the height of my eternal potential and be quite content.

I am certain that we did not arrive in mortality until we had a full understanding of the consequences.

Well thought out, imo

[canard78]

I am hearing more and more Temple and mid level leaders suggesting that you do not lose. All family connections even though you do not make or the family member does not make the CK. Not sure how they think that works. So are you suggesting that family connections pop in and out of existence?

I suppose they would need to under my understanding. The mere principle of 'borderline cases' would need this to be an option.

I doubt that people will regress in the next life. So this would only happen once. The person loses the relationship, then does the work to progress and then regains it.

[canard78]

With some perspective, we must appreciate that we have existed for countless trillions of years. Our nature was established well before this universe even existed. We will end up where we are most happy. This live, and only this life, is where we are sent to live according to our wills and pleasures. The wills and pleasures that we have established for such a long time that we have no way to measure it other than to say for ever ago. The fact that, despite our eternal nature, we must still be compelled to bend the knee has no bearing on the limitations we want to put on our immeasurable future.

Those who failed their first estate, namely Satan and his follows, will be forever cast from the glory virtually every mortal may receive. Those who fail their second estate will also be forever cast out from the glory those willing to live a celestial law may receive. For all we know, their could be a 3rd and a 4th estate. I may arrive in the celestial kingdom and be presented with even yet a higher law that I may not want to follow. I may reach the height of my eternal potential and be quite content.

I am certain that we did not arrive in mortality until we had a full understanding of the consequences.

And what of borderline cases. I know I keep going on about it, but that's where the question gets the most pertinent.

What of two people with no significant difference. One keeps their second estate, but only by a whisker. The second loses it by the same margin.

I like the idea of 3rd, 4th, - eternal progress. Perhaps God is at his 6th or 7th.

But given that principle I also don't accept that this life is the only time and place to qualify for second estate. If we have existed for trillions of years then I can't imagine our next stage would be decided for the next trillion years based on 80.

That's 0.0000000004% of 2trillion years.

That's like saying our 80 years will be judged on 1/100th of a second.

(Yes, I was nerdy enough to work out what the actual equivalent was).

[Bikeemikey]

There is no indication that the prodigal son received that which belonged to the loyal son.

True we do it to ourselves. It is equally true that God will force no man to Heaven.

There is also no indication he didn't. The temperament of the good son suggests the prodigal son received more than justice ought to tolerate. The the good sons sin of failing to fully love his brother upon returning home any less grievous than the prodigal sons sins? Bear in mind the prodigal sons return home is his repentance. The good son must still repent of his weakness also.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Bikeemikey]

But the Final Judgment does not come until after Resurrection so if one allowed the body to undergo changes and not be frozen at a certain level of perfection....and it would seem to me that if there is progress within an kingdom as has been taught by even those who say there is not outside of a kingdom, than the resurrected body must allow for some change at least and if some change, why not complete change?

I think we have this backwards. We get our body and then this determines our judgement. "Our glory is the glory by which our bodies are quickened". Not we earn a glory and then get a body to match.

[BlueDreams]

And what of borderline cases. I know I keep going on about it, but that's where the question gets the most pertinent.

What of two people with no significant difference. One keeps their second estate, but only by a whisker. The second loses it by the same margin.

I like the idea of 3rd, 4th, - eternal progress. Perhaps God is at his 6th or 7th.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in, I've been reading this thread off and on and just haven't had time to state anything.

I've notice that a number of your ideas run on the basis of assumptions that may be incorrect or are questionable. For example, you assume that there will be borderline cases, that it'll be a gradient of humanity. I don't think this is necessarily true. I personally assume by the depictions used that the differences will be quite distinctive (their glory being noted as similar as the sun, moon, and stars). Instead of a test score where on missed the mark by a couple of points, it seems more apt to described it as a process of becoming as here (and in the spirit world) we are converted. It would be more similar, to me (for an earthly and faulty comparison), to compare it to differences in species. One is far more off than a couple of hairs or whiskers in knowing if something is a cat or a dog, though they're both mammal. And though all will be bodies of light of some sort, all being glorified to some extent, all partaking in part of God no matter what glory they are. I doubt the difference would be as subtle as a 79 or an 80 on a test. This life is not a check list, it's becoming Christ's and thus the Father's, overcoming all things in the process.

But given that principle I also don't accept that this life is the only time and place to qualify for second estate. If we have existed for trillions of years then I can't imagine our next stage would be decided for the next trillion years based on 80.

Why not? Lucifer lost his first estate by one decision. And we're not qualifying for the second estate. We're deciding if we'll keep it. That's why one can be blotted out of the book of life. It implies we were already written in it. Like Esau, we are already called to our inheritance, it is ours. It's our decision whether we choose the bowl of pottage instead of it. The gift is already ours, but if we can not respect it and find it of no value/worth then what's the use of it? Eternal decisions will have eternal consequences and i believe that all will have all the time they need to choose it (not just 80 years, because change is still possible in the spirit world).

Likewise there's similar probs with your initial post entail assumptions that seem shaky to me mainly:

• What it means to be punished
  
• Whether or not we are completely separated from other kingdoms
  
• and whether your feelings match up with the rest of humanity at any state of moral being.
  

Though there is not a definitive answer stated about progressing between kingdoms, I personally feel that the scriptures lend more credence to there not being a feasibility than there being so. And the reasoning you've presented is also problematic.

Random side note: I also don't like the idea of trillions of years of existence mainly because it's also relying on a mortal perspective to understand what it means to be eternal. Scripture makes it quite clear that time is different outside of this mortal existence. Also, that was pretty nerdy of you....that many 0's and I'd have given up just putting it into my calculator

With luv,

BD

[Freedom]

And what of borderline cases. I know I keep going on about it, but that's where the question gets the most pertinent.

What of two people with no significant difference. One keeps their second estate, but only by a whisker. The second loses it by the same margin.

I like the idea of 3rd, 4th, - eternal progress. Perhaps God is at his 6th or 7th.

But given that principle I also don't accept that this life is the only time and place to qualify for second estate. If we have existed for trillions of years then I can't imagine our next stage would be decided for the next trillion years based on 80.

That's 0.0000000004% of 2trillion years.

That's like saying our 80 years will be judged on 1/100th of a second.

(Yes, I was nerdy enough to work out what the actual equivalent was).

I do not see it this way. When you take a university course, all the marks are based on the final exam. It does not matter how long the exam is, if you prepared you will get a good mark. If you did not prepare you will fail. Perhaps a better analogy is dance. If you do not practice you will look like a fool when placed on stage, if you practice for hours and years, when you perform you will magnificent even if you are having an off day. You are not being tested on how well you practice, but how well you perform after you practice. We are here to put in place our natural inclinations that we developed over the past eternities. We are no more being judged on 80 years than a student is being judged on 15 minutes of biology. One does not require more than 2 hours to prove if they studied (all things being equal of course).

I do not believe in boarder line passes or fails. The three degrees of glory are, in my opinion, simplistic analogies but as has been stated earlier in this thread, there are many mansions. As many as there are people. I think that entry into the celestial kingdom is a lot easier than we make it out to be. If you genuinely want to follow you on the right track. To say there are borderlines is to say we are saved by our own works. Joe got saved because he read two more chapters of the book of mormon than you did. I am certain that there will be no appeals. Our eyes will be opened and we will see clearly.

[Stone holm]

I do not see it this way. When you take a university course, all the marks are based on the final exam. It does not matter how long the exam is, if you prepared you will get a good mark. If you did not prepare you will fail. Perhaps a better analogy is dance. If you do not practice you will look like a fool when placed on stage, if you practice for hours and years, when you perform you will magnificent even if you are having an off day. You are not being tested on how well you practice, but how well you perform after you practice. We are here to put in place our natural inclinations that we developed over the past eternities. We are no more being judged on 80 years than a student is being judged on 15 minutes of biology. One does not require more than 2 hours to prove if they studied (all things being equal of course).

I do not believe in boarder line passes or fails. The three degrees of glory are, in my opinion, simplistic analogies but as has been stated earlier in this thread, there are many mansions. As many as there are people. I think that entry into the celestial kingdom is a lot easier than we make it out to be. If you genuinely want to follow you on the right track. To say there are borderlines is to say we are saved by our own works. Joe got saved because he read two more chapters of the book of mormon than you did. I am certain that there will be no appeals. Our eyes will be opened and we will see clearly.

Yeah except for the bodies thing and the fact that we clearly teach divided kingdoms...oh that doctrine it just keeps gettin in the way

[Rob Osborn]

I like your idea, but then why place so much emphasis on this life? Why spend so much on resources for temple work and missionary work?

If you are correct, this life doesn't seem to mean near as much as we've always seemed to suggest.

There is tremendous emphasis placed upon us in mortality to become saved. The interesting thing about it though is that probably only about 1% or less of all who ever lived on earth had the correct opportunity to accept Christ and repent and become baptised. If mortality really was "the big test" why so few who could actually have access to the real truth and accept? My opinion is that in the millennium is when the real work will happen to bring about the salvation of souls.

There are just too many circumstances that happen in mortality for folks to be judged for all eternity- not really right or fair. The decisions we do make though will have some temporary rewards or punishments after death but the real basis for oir judgment in eternity will not happen until after the millennium and every soul has had ample opportunity to repent and become converted to Christ.

[Rob Osborn]

Ah you mean if you take a short trip to the spirit prison that ex-cons aren't welcome in the Celestial Kingdom?

Yes, thats the mormon doctrine we teah every sunday at church. I dont believe this doctrine but it is precisely what we teach

[Calm]

If mortality really was "the big test" why so few who could actually have access to the real truth and accept?

Unless one defines mortality as including all time between birth and resurrection...and possibly some time prior to birth that helped up prepare that we are not currently aware of.

At the very least I think morality should include all the time where the veil is in place, which may be much longer than death.

[Freedom]

Yeah except for the bodies thing and the fact that we clearly teach divided kingdoms...oh that doctrine it just keeps gettin in the way

That does not get in the way at all. There are many species, all divided, and yet there are many animals in each species in different stages of progression.

[canard78]

I do not see it this way. When you take a university course, all the marks are based on the final exam. It does not matter how long the exam is, if you prepared you will get a good mark. If you did not prepare you will fail. Perhaps a better analogy is dance. If you do not practice you will look like a fool when placed on stage, if you practice for hours and years, when you perform you will magnificent even if you are having an off day. You are not being tested on how well you practice, but how well you perform after you practice. We are here to put in place our natural inclinations that we developed over the past eternities. We are no more being judged on 80 years than a student is being judged on 15 minutes of biology. One does not require more than 2 hours to prove if they studied (all things being equal of course).

I do not believe in boarder line passes or fails. The three degrees of glory are, in my opinion, simplistic analogies but as has been stated earlier in this thread, there are many mansions. As many as there are people. I think that entry into the celestial kingdom is a lot easier than we make it out to be. If you genuinely want to follow you on the right track. To say there are borderlines is to say we are saved by our own works. Joe got saved because he read two more chapters of the book of mormon than you did. I am certain that there will be no appeals. Our eyes will be opened and we will see clearly.

Interesting perspective. But I do not view this life as an exam, test or evaluation. I don't there are any tests at all. I consider it to all be part of the continuum. This is a chapter in our eternal existence.

I don't believe in borderline pass of fails either, as I don't believe in 3 distinct degrees with 'fences' around them. I consider it all a process of development. Like I said, a continuum.

Edited July 11, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in, I've been reading this thread off and on and just haven't had time to state anything.

I've notice that a number of your ideas run on the basis of assumptions that may be incorrect or are questionable. For example, you assume that there will be borderline cases, that it'll be a gradient of humanity. I don't think this is necessarily true. I personally assume by the depictions used that the differences will be quite distinctive (their glory being noted as similar as the sun, moon, and stars). Instead of a test score where on missed the mark by a couple of points, it seems more apt to described it as a process of becoming as here (and in the spirit world) we are converted. It would be more similar, to me (for an earthly and faulty comparison), to compare it to differences in species. One is far more off than a couple of hairs or whiskers in knowing if something is a cat or a dog, though they're both mammal. And though all will be bodies of light of some sort, all being glorified to some extent, all partaking in part of God no matter what glory they are. I doubt the difference would be as subtle as a 79 or an 80 on a test. This life is not a check list, it's becoming Christ's and thus the Father's, overcoming all things in the process.

Why not? Lucifer lost his first estate by one decision. And we're not qualifying for the second estate. We're deciding if we'll keep it. That's why one can be blotted out of the book of life. It implies we were already written in it. Like Esau, we are already called to our inheritance, it is ours. It's our decision whether we choose the bowl of pottage instead of it. The gift is already ours, but if we can not respect it and find it of no value/worth then what's the use of it? Eternal decisions will have eternal consequences and i believe that all will have all the time they need to choose it (not just 80 years, because change is still possible in the spirit world).

Likewise there's similar probs with your initial post entail assumptions that seem shaky to me mainly:

• What it means to be punished
  
• Whether or not we are completely separated from other kingdoms
  
• and whether your feelings match up with the rest of humanity at any state of moral being.
  

Though there is not a definitive answer stated about progressing between kingdoms, I personally feel that the scriptures lend more credence to there not being a feasibility than there being so. And the reasoning you've presented is also problematic.

Random side note: I also don't like the idea of trillions of years of existence mainly because it's also relying on a mortal perspective to understand what it means to be eternal. Scripture makes it quite clear that time is different outside of this mortal existence. Also, that was pretty nerdy of you....that many 0's and I'd have given up just putting it into my calculator

With luv,

BD

Hi BD, thanks for your participation. I enjoyed reading your post.

As it happens, I don't really believe in borderline cases either. It was an analogy to argue against the concept of three distinct kingdoms (or "body types" which some had been) and the problems with it. I suppose I argued that to the point of it sounding like I also believe it.

I agree we are all in (as you said) "a process of becoming."

I personally don't believe in 3 distinct kingdoms. I consider the sun/moon/stars analogy to be no more than figurative.

I'm not sure I fully understand your species example though. That still seems to presume that humanity can be divided into three (or more?) classes? Not sure how that would work?