Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants

[MDalby]

I absolutely love verse 59. It verifies the rest of the statements. Nobody is saying that people will have a free pass. The prophets have said that all will need to be obedient to the plan of salvation and pay for their transgressions.

If a man has knowledge, he can be saved; although, if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 357)

President Lorenzo Snow

The work that has been accomplished in the nations of the earth and the islands of the sea is grand and glorious. And this is not all; within the last few months thousands of persons in the spirit world have been placed in a condition that they may receive the word of God and be saved, through the ordinances that have been administered in these four temples in this Territory.

A wonderful work is being accomplished in our temples in favor of the spirits in prison. I believe, strongly too, that when the Gospel is preached to the spirits in prison, the success attending that preaching will be far greater than that attending the preaching of our Elders in this life. I believe there will be very few indeed of those spirits who will not gladly receive the Gospel when it is carried to them. The circumstances there will be a thousand times more favorable. I believe there will be very few who will not receive the truth. They will hear the voice of the Son of God; they will hear the voice of the Priesthood of the Son of God, and they will receive the truth and live. These brethren and sisters that are laboring so industriously in the temples will have the honor of being, as it were, saviors to their kindred and friends in whose favor they administered these ordinances.

Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. When Jesus went through that terrible torture on the cross, He saw what would be accomplished by it; He saw that His brethren and sisters—the sons and daughters of God—would be gathered in, with but few exceptions—those who committed the unpardonable sin. That sacrifice of the divine Being was effectual to destroy the powers of Satan. I believe that every man and woman who comes into this life and passes through it, that life will be a success in the end. It may not be in this life. It was not with the antedeluvians. They passed through troubles and afflictions; 2,500 years after that, when Jesus went to preach to them, the dead heard the voice of the Son of God and they lived. They found after all that it was a very good thing that they had conformed to the will of God in leaving the spiritual life and passing through this world.

(President Lorenzo Snow, CR, Oct 1893)

To be fair, there are those that have a dissenting view.

George Albert Smith

There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.

(George Albert Smith, CR, October 1945, p. 172)

[MDalby]

President James E. Faust

Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy.

(President James E. Faust, Conference Report, April 2003, p. 68)

President James E. Faust

We remember that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance, and when it was all gone he came back to his father’s house. There he was welcomed back into the family, but his inheritance was spent. Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will claim wayward children only on condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement.

(President James E. Faust, Conference Report, April 2003, p. 68)

President James E. Faust

Perhaps in this life we are not given to fully understand how enduring the sealing cords of righteous parents are to their children. It may very well be that there are more helpful sources at work than we know. I believe there is a strong familial pull as the influence of beloved ancestors continues with us from the other side of the veil.

(Conference Report, April 2003, p. 68)

[Questing Beast]

I've been to earth's glorious places. One was a breathtaking moment, stood at the rim of a dormant volcano in the Philippines with my wife and children before riding the horses down into the crater to swim in the lake that filled the bowl of the crater.

If I multiply that by a million I'm sure I still can't even begin to imagine what it will be like in the telestial kingdom. But eventually it would still be a place that would make me weep/wail/gnash my teeth. That would eventually be a place of torment because of opportunities being denied. Why would God be so willing and ready to forgive during 80 years of mortality, but then remove the concept of grace and second chances in the next stage of our eternal journey?

Of course the prophets need to teach us to "not procrastinate the day of our repentance to the end," otherwise many of us would just put it off to the next life.

The graphic of the "three degrees of glory" is usually stacked, telestial on the bottom, terestrial in the center, celestial on the top. This give us a false impression of connectivity with "upward" movement as we gain knowledge. A better way to display the three degrees of glory is to lay them side by side, and then show a diverging course from each other. This would not be accurate either, because "higher" glorified beings have full access to lesser glories, nevertheless the graphic would show separation. And that is the main point of the doctrine of separate and varied "glories". "God", of course, is over all. Only those beings capable of viewing all of creation can apprehend what "God" knows. Lesser beings are not going to even be interested in what they cannot apprehend, much less comprehend. Yet within their world Infinity continues to increase; there is always something new coming from "God" into it and therefore always more to learn about "God", which knowledge brings Joy. That some vastly more intelligent beings know more of the "mind of God" than I ever will should not disturb me, since all Creation originates with "God", and there are always greater intelligences than any you would point to. Envy has no place in any of this. "God" is not jealous of knowledge and power, only attribution. "God" will share all that a being is capable of receiving, no matter which "glory" they inhabit, and that process, for the immortals we all are, goes on forever....

[Bikeemikey]

The idea of progressing from kingdom to kingdom until a full inheritance in Celestial Glory is had leaves open the implication that some never had the chance to obtain Celestial Glory. I find this patently false...

Every person that ever lived will have every opportunity they need to choose life in the Celestial Kingdom, or to choose something lesser, before the Final Judgement. No one will be denied equal opportunity to obtain the richest blessings of heaven. That is why the judgments passed at the Final Judgement will be permanent.

And what if Final Judgement actually has a specific and narrow theological meaning, that is "Final Judgement" is the judgement that grants one access to the Celestial Kingdom.

This woud also allow many and multiple judgements (change in kingdoms perhaps) to occur prior to the "Final Judgement".

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Bikeemikey]

Yet in the Resurrection we will definitely be given our bodies appropriate to the Kingdom to which we belong. It is not God that says it's too late. It is we whom choose. God will not force any man to Heaven.

While I partially agree with you I think there is an inverse relationship between body and kingdom than what you presented in your post. We do not receive bodies appropriate for our kingdoms, we inherit kingdoms appropriate for our bodies.

As such, the kingdom is the glory by which our body is quickened.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Bikeemikey]

As I have mentioned in previous comments, the problem with migrating between the Kingdoms is the assignment of the immortal physical bodies which cannot stand the environment of the higher glories.

I don't think this is really a problem.

Translated beings (lets use Moses as an example) received perfected physical bodies, but not perfected Celestial bodies. (In the Old Testament Institute manual from about 15 years ago it referred to the body as a terrestrial body, same book with the quote from one of the Pratt brothers about teleporting via the Priesthood say take that for what you will.)

At some point Moses will receive a perfected Celestial body (at least as a patriarch of a gospel dispensation I am making this assumption).

Therefore, we have strong scriptural and doctrinal precedence for allowing the migration from one form of glorified body to another.

As such an immortal body is one that can not die, not one that cannot change.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Stone holm]

I don't think this is really a problem.

Translated beings (lets use Moses as an example) received perfected physical bodies, but not perfected Celestial bodies. (In the Old Testament Institute manual from about 15 years ago it referred to the body as a terrestrial body, same book with the quote from one of the Pratt brothers about teleporting via the Priesthood say take that for what you will.)

At some point Moses will receive a perfected Celestial body (at least as a patriarch of a gospel dispensation I am making this assumption).

Therefore, we have strong scriptural and doctrinal precedence for allowing the migration from one form of glorified body to another.

As such an immortal body is one that can not die, not one that cannot change.

Whatever translated bodies are like they are intended to be temporary , although there appears to be a translation of filth as well because Pres Kimball described an encounter between one of the early Apostles and Cain.

[teddyaware]

I absolutely love verse 59. It verifies the rest of the statements. Nobody is saying that people will have a free pass. The prophets have said that all will need to be obedient to the plan of salvation and pay for their transgressions.

If a man has knowledge, he can be saved; although, if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 357)

President Lorenzo Snow

The work that has been accomplished in the nations of the earth and the islands of the sea is grand and glorious. And this is not all; within the last few months thousands of persons in the spirit world have been placed in a condition that they may receive the word of God and be saved, through the ordinances that have been administered in these four temples in this Territory.

A wonderful work is being accomplished in our temples in favor of the spirits in prison. I believe, strongly too, that when the Gospel is preached to the spirits in prison, the success attending that preaching will be far greater than that attending the preaching of our Elders in this life. I believe there will be very few indeed of those spirits who will not gladly receive the Gospel when it is carried to them. The circumstances there will be a thousand times more favorable. I believe there will be very few who will not receive the truth. They will hear the voice of the Son of God; they will hear the voice of the Priesthood of the Son of God, and they will receive the truth and live. These brethren and sisters that are laboring so industriously in the temples will have the honor of being, as it were, saviors to their kindred and friends in whose favor they administered these ordinances.

Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. When Jesus went through that terrible torture on the cross, He saw what would be accomplished by it; He saw that His brethren and sisters—the sons and daughters of God—would be gathered in, with but few exceptions—those who committed the unpardonable sin. That sacrifice of the divine Being was effectual to destroy the powers of Satan. I believe that every man and woman who comes into this life and passes through it, that life will be a success in the end. It may not be in this life. It was not with the antedeluvians. They passed through troubles and afflictions; 2,500 years after that, when Jesus went to preach to them, the dead heard the voice of the Son of God and they lived. They found after all that it was a very good thing that they had conformed to the will of God in leaving the spiritual life and passing through this world.

(President Lorenzo Snow, CR, Oct 1893)

To be fair, there are those that have a dissenting view.

George Albert Smith

There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end.

(George Albert Smith, CR, October 1945, p. 172)

I believe a very important thing to keep in mind when entertaining questions like this thread's original post is this: The 76th section of the D&C is, by its own admission, incomplete. There will be much more pertaining to the degrees of glory and salvation for the dead when the remainder of the vision is finally fully revealed. Who knows what new information will be revealed in that day? That new doctrine will very likely be quite a shock to some, because even after revealing what was permitted to be revealed in D&C 76: as presently constituted, the Prophet Joseph Smith tells us: "114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

Edited July 9, 2013 by teddyaware

[Bikeemikey]

Whatever translated bodies are like they are intended to be temporary , although there appears to be a translation of filth as well because Pres Kimball described an encounter between one of the early Apostles and Cain.

Resurrection and translation are simply two different words to denote a change in status of the body.

While it is true one may receive a terrestrial body via translation, one may also receive it via resurrection. It may be that translation refers to a temporary assignment of a body, however, the physical nature of the terrestrial body received, whether by translation or resurrection would be the same.

As such, it appears a terrestrial body may become a celestial body (and Moses is an example of this).

[Mark Beesley]

D&C 19 establishes a few things:

The words Endless and Eternal torment in the scriptures doesn't mean "torment with no end" - it is simply another synonym for God. Like Wonderful, Prince of Peace... Endless, Eternal. Other names for God. (v. 4,10,11,12)

God (or Endless as we could also call him) warns that the non-repentant must suffer even as God suffered. They will have to experience the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth; the implications and consequences of their actions. The pain they have caused to others. (v. 4,5,15,16,17,20)

But... this pain will not be without end. If we will suffer "even as" he did, then we have to look at how he suffered. It caused him to "tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit." And then it ended: "I partook and finished..." (v.6,7,19)

This would therefore suggest that there is a doctrine in Mormonism for the opportunity for progression between kingdoms. If I was separated from my family or if my opportunity to improve myself was ended, that I was damned, then that would be agony, purgatory. I would weep and wail and gnash my teeth. There would only be one way to end that pain: progress (if I was willing to do the things needed to attain the next step of my progression). Anything less would leave me in torment without end. And our scriptures tell us that this is not an option.

In his Feb 5, 1840 public sermon Joseph is recorded as speaking on the topic:

Recorded in The History of the Church v.4,p78. Available on BYU.edu.

A part of the account of the sermon was quoted in the June 1994 Ensign

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Full scripture reference:

D&C 19:

My thoughts on this have evolved over the years. What I am left with after considering the clear indication that there is no such thing as punishment that last forever, is that if we in any way, shape or form start to conduct a life with that safety net in mind, i.e. the eventual universal salvation of all fo God's children, we would do well to remember the warning in the Book of Mormon:

And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

2 Nephi 28:8, 9

The whole point of the atonement was for us to escape those stripes, and to become somewhat lukewarm about keeping covenants and commandments betrays a serious and foolish ignorance about just what those "few stripes" might look like.

[Bikeemikey]

My thoughts on this have evolved over the years. What I am left with after considering the clear indication that there is no such thing as punishment that last forever, is that if we in any way, shape or form start to conduct a life with that safety net in mind, i.e. the eventual universal salvation of all fo God's children, we would do well to remember the warning in the Book of Mormon:

The whole point of the atonement was for us to escape those stripes, and to become somewhat lukewarm about keeping covenants and commandments betrays a serious and foolish ignorance about just what those "few stripes" might look like.

I have never threatened my kids with a punishment that lasts forever and they consistently grow learn and develop quite well. In fact, I believe that behavioral science suggests the higher the perceived permanence of a punishment the lower the instances of optimal performance. In fact, I think in the case of animal subjects permanent punishment drove the recipient insane.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Cold Steel]

Brigham Young and others taught that Adam was a resurrected being and that he partook of the fruit to have physical children. His body, being immortal, could not die in the sense we think of it, but that the corruptible elements in his body caused him to mimic age and frailty. When he "died," it was a "separation" of his body and the corrupting elements. If true, and we by no means can say it is, then Adam may have been making a transition to a higher glory from a lower one.

This can lead to "endless" speculation (pun intended), but even if it's possible to go from one kingdom to another, it most likely will involve some incredible sacrifices. One evangelical asked me if I thought that God could have ever been a sinner. My reply was certainly not. God is a plural noun like "family" or "quorum." When one speaks of God, it may refer to billions or even trillions of individual beings, individually called "God" and together called "God." Thus, God cannot sin and has never sinned. Those called God have not always been God, but are sons of God who have become like Him.

[teddyaware]

My thoughts on this have evolved over the years. What I am left with after considering the clear indication that there is no such thing as punishment that last forever, is that if we in any way, shape or form start to conduct a life with that safety net in mind, i.e. the eventual universal salvation of all fo God's children, we would do well to remember the warning in the Book of Mormon:

The whole point of the atonement was for us to escape those stripes, and to become somewhat lukewarm about keeping covenants and commandments betrays a serious and foolish ignorance about just what those "few stripes" might look like.

D&C 76 gives us some important information as to what the infliction of those "stripes" really means. "104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under hisfeet, and shall have perfected his work;"

Edited July 9, 2013 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

I have never threatened my kids with a punishment that lasts forever and they consistently grow learn and develop quite well. In fact, I believe that behavioral science suggests the higher the perceived permanence of a punishment the lower the instances of optimal performance. In fact, I think in the case of animal subjects permanent punishment drove the recipient insane.

Yeah, but your kids are still cute little mites, take it from one who has raised a few more through all the at home stages...never say never.

[sweetpotatoh]

I don't think there is progression between kingdoms. I don't think a telestial body can abide the glory of the two higher kingdoms. We are resurrected to the glory we aspire to. If you die in wickedness you will inherit the reward for doing so. One who desired wickedness and didnt repent, cannot stand in the realm of the Son or Father.

That said, I believe that there is progression within a kingdom.

[Stone holm]

I don't think there is progression between kingdoms. I don't think a telestial body can abide the glory of the two higher kingdoms. We are resurrected to the glory we aspire to. If you die in wickedness you will inherit the reward for doing so. One who desired wickedness and didnt repent, cannot stand in the realm of the Son or Father.

That said, I believe that there is progression within a kingdom.

Agreed.

[Bikeemikey]

Yeah, but your kids are still cute little mites, take it from one who has raised a few more through all the at home stages...never say never.

:-)

[Rob Osborn]

I don't think there is progression between kingdoms. I don't think a telestial body can abide the glory of the two higher kingdoms. We are resurrected to the glory we aspire to. If you die in wickedness you will inherit the reward for doing so. One who desired wickedness and didnt repent, cannot stand in the realm of the Son or Father.

That said, I believe that there is progression within a kingdom.

And yet, the plan of salvation as taught in the temple requires us to start in the telestial kingdom and then progress from that kingdom into the terrestrial kingdom and then from there into the celestial kingdom. Life is about overcoming the natural man.we cannot achieve that in mortality and thus the reason why we have the terrestrial kingdom during the millennium. All telestialwho are qualified to enter into the millenniym will be quickened with terrestrial glory into terrestrial bodies.

[Questing Beast]

I think that there is an obvious feature about "glories" that is never taught, yet is implicit in the use of the heavenly bodies to illustrate it. We are told that God is like the sun, and those who inherit the full knowledge and power of God as it applies to creation are likewise as full of light and truth as the sun by comparison. Those of lesser glory are likened to the moon in brightness, or light and truth, while the most numerous and varied are likened to the stars, possessing light and truth in variable amounts. Now, there is one sky or firmament of heaven, in other words one world in which we see all the lights of the sky just referred to. All associate together, none are somewhere else. Coupled with the teaching about infinite intelligences of infinite levels, we have an interesting implicit eternal or immortal condition. Some intelligences are not intended for a full apprehension of God's glory, his power and knowledge within creation. Others are quite lowly in comparison, yet there is a unique quality to each. There is no level or hierarchy that we can delineate intelligence with in the eternal, immortal scheme of things. But it seems to me that the "three kingdoms of glory" are not so much literal as allegorical. Only three "kingdoms", really? God is Infinite and there are only three main divisions? There must be infinite divisions, as many as there are intelligences, or sapient souls, no two exactly alike either in intelligence or perception. Two souls might be as comparable as "Red" to "Red", yet the countless shades of "Red", nuanced only to God, are different. To each other they may seem equally "intelligent", and they may be effectively no different as per intelligence. However, knowing the same things doesn't mean that they know them the same way. One soul's knowledge must be like a unique "flavor", and the other's also. By knowing each other, each knows something more about God, something unique and wonderful. And by such endless associations throughout eternity, each sapient soul learns more and more about God and the world of humans we are part of and participate in. Forever. So there is no "progression between kingdoms of glory" going on, only infinitely variable beings of infinitely nuanced intelligence, discovering as much about God as God can reveal. There is no separation of "families" at all. Greater intelligences condescend to the level of lesser intelligences to "minister" to them, i.e. teach of the greater knowledge that they have, as much as the capacity of the lesser intelligences is capable of receiving it. And that capacity must grow with knowledge. But no matter how much one intelligence increases, all others are likewise increasing.

There is no place for "intelligence envy" in this. There is no need, since it is tied to uniqueness. Even a lesser intelligence has unique perspectives and insights that are pleasurable to discover for a higher intelligence. This must be so, otherwise God would not enjoy each individual no matter what their intelligence....

Edit to ask: could it be that intelligence relates directly to which "kingdom of glory" it winds up as? If the answer is yes, then is a SOP as intelligent as any other CK denizen? It seems to me that in order to qualify for outer darkness one must possess enough intellect to comprehend God sufficiently to rebel decisively enough to warrant that kind of "time out". A lesser intellect could not rebel that effectively. So, a SOP is the equal effectively in intellect as any soul in the CK, and will eventually wind up "there", once their rebellion is repented of. There is no spacetime in outer darkness, so "how long O God?" is a meaningless question. Once the SOP sickens of their godless, creationless lot, and wishes to participate ("play nicely") they can start over and "get it right" next time....

Edited July 9, 2013 by Questing Beast

[canard78]

Yet in the Resurrection we will definitely be given our bodies appropriate to the Kingdom to which we belong. It is not God that says it's too late. It is we whom choose. God will not force any man to Heaven.

And why can't our bodies change later?

I'd presume the 'bodies celestial' is more figurative anyway. How can someone be given a perfect body that has inbuilt imperfections that hold them back.

[canard78]

I think that there is an obvious feature about "glories" that is never taught, yet is implicit in the use of the heavenly bodies to illustrate it. We are told that God is like the sun, and those who inherit the full knowledge and power of God as it applies to creation are likewise as full of light and truth as the sun by comparison. Those of lesser glory are likened to the moon in brightness, or light and truth, while the most numerous and varied are likened to the stars, possessing light and truth in variable amounts. Now, there is one sky or firmament of heaven, in other words one world in which we see all the lights of the sky just referred to. All associate together, none are somewhere else. Coupled with the teaching about infinite intelligences of infinite levels, we have an interesting implicit eternal or immortal condition. Some intelligences are not intended for a full apprehension of God's glory, his power and knowledge within creation. Others are quite lowly in comparison, yet there is a unique quality to each. There is no level or hierarchy that we can delineate intelligence with in the eternal, immortal scheme of things. But it seems to me that the "three kingdoms of glory" are not so much literal as allegorical. Only three "kingdoms", really? God is Infinite and there are only three main divisions? There must be infinite divisions, as many as there are intelligences, or sapient souls, no two exactly alike either in intelligence or perception. Two souls might be as comparable as "Red" to "Red", yet the countless shades of "Red", nuanced only to God, are different. To each other they may seem equally "intelligent", and they may be effectively no different as per intelligence. However, knowing the same things doesn't mean that they know them the same way. One soul's knowledge must be like a unique "flavor", and the other's also. By knowing each other, each knows something more about God, something unique and wonderful. And by such endless associations throughout eternity, each sapient soul learns more and more about God and the world of humans we are part of and participate in. Forever. So there is no "progression between kingdoms of glory" going on, only infinitely variable beings of infinitely nuanced intelligence, discovering as much about God as God can reveal. There is no separation of "families" at all. Greater intelligences condescend to the level of lesser intelligences to "minister" to them, i.e. teach of the greater knowledge that they have, as much as the capacity of the lesser intelligences is capable of receiving it. And that capacity must grow with knowledge. But no matter how much one intelligence increases, all others are likewise increasing.

This really got me thinking.

I work in research and we do a lot of work with benchmarking things (products/brands/advertising/concepts etc) against norms.

Usually we cut our database into rough tertiles (30/40/30). An ad sitting at 69th percentile would sit in the middle or 'amber' segment. The ad sitting in 70th percentile would be in the top 30% of the database and 'green.'

There have been times when two ads (or whatever else) have been evaluated and have 69th and 70th percentile performance. One is green and one is amber. There is no significant difference between them. Almost imperceptible. Side by side they are as good as each other. The 69 vs 70 is within data collection margin for error, so the first could have been 70th and the second 69th on a different day.

And yet... One is green and the other amber. We have to draw the line somewhere and our imperfect system means some ads get unfairly rewarded or punished. It's not fair, but it's pragmatic.

God is not unfair, not limited by arbitrary cut-off. If we imagine 3 real kingdoms that will mean there has to be borderline cases... People who just made the cut and people who missed by a whisker. Maybe one more hour of scripture study/service/prayer would have made the difference. Or one hour less!

Would you be ok if those two people were you and your wife? That your fingers reached for eternity, separated by the width of a budget paperback Book of Mormon title page.

If we really believe that there will be a three-way cut made for kingdom qualification then it stands to reason there will be people like the example mentioned above.

I don't believe in a God or plan like that. Which is why progress between kingdoms is a natural conclusion.

[canard78]

I don't think there is progression between kingdoms. I don't think a telestial body can abide the glory of the two higher kingdoms. We are resurrected to the glory we aspire to. If you die in wickedness you will inherit the reward for doing so. One who desired wickedness and didnt repent, cannot stand in the realm of the Son or Father.

That said, I believe that there is progression within a kingdom.

If mortal bodies can be changed (transfiguration/3-nephites/John etc) then why couldn't an eternal body change when it is ready to and has made the needed preparation to do so.

And what happens when (in x billion years) someone has progressed to the very limit of the terrestrial kingdom? They'd have to stop as the next, but tiny, step would be celestial. That sounds like being damned.

[canard78]

I don't think this is really a problem.

Translated beings (lets use Moses as an example) received perfected physical bodies, but not perfected Celestial bodies. (In the Old Testament Institute manual from about 15 years ago it referred to the body as a terrestrial body, same book with the quote from one of the Pratt brothers about teleporting via the Priesthood say take that for what you will.)

At some point Moses will receive a perfected Celestial body (at least as a patriarch of a gospel dispensation I am making this assumption).

Therefore, we have strong scriptural and doctrinal precedence for allowing the migration from one form of glorified body to another.

As such an immortal body is one that can not die, not one that cannot change.

I agree with you. The idea that our eternal nature and body are 'locked' seems odd given there is such precedent of bodies being changed in scripture.

[Stone holm]

And yet, the plan of salvation as taught in the temple requires us to start in the telestial kingdom and then progress from that kingdom into the terrestrial kingdom and then from there into the celestial kingdom. Life is about overcoming the natural man.we cannot achieve that in mortality and thus the reason why we have the terrestrial kingdom during the millennium. All telestialwho are qualified to enter into the millenniym will be quickened with terrestrial glory into terrestrial bodies.

I tend to think of the Temple as some kind of tour through history and the various Kingdoms rather than necessarily evidencing the actual passage. We are resurrected unto a specific Kingdom, there is nothing that prevents a Celestial being from taking a tour of the lower Kingdoms, what is problematic is for a being resurrected to a lower status touring the higher Kingdoms. Also, I do not buy into the idea that a translated being is the same as a resurrected being with regards to their bodily status. Adam's initial body type was intended as a temporary status geared for the Garden -- I am not certain it is correct to identify the Garden as Terrestrial Kingdom. It had a separate room in the older Temples -- not that that necessarily means anything.

[Alan]

Joining this thread late and confess to not having read every post so far.

For me the prosepct of advancement from one kingdom to another is obvious - for that is exactly what we are taught in the Temple.