Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants

[Deborah]

Learning and growing to what? And without God? Without family? Those who go there are not some other species of goat or cattle, happy to graze on the eternities of blandness.

We are without God now yet we still feel his presence. Family who may be in a higher kingdom may still visit those in a lower. It's just like now where we may haven non-member in our family. They may not sit with us in church or go to the temple with us but we still have interaction with them.

The problem I have with those who accept that there is progress between kingdoms is that they feel it doesn't matter what choices they make now because some day they'll be able to make up for it when the scriptures clearly state "This life" is the time for men to prepare to meet God (this life including the post-mortal existence prior to resurrection). I know people who have said "Well, I might be wrong but if I am it will all work out" because they believe in this idea of progression between kingdoms.

The fact is we don't know one way or the other and it's interesting how both sides use scriptures to prove their points.

[Stone holm]

Learning and growing to what? And without God? Without family? Those who go there are not some other species of goat or cattle, happy to graze on the eternities of blandness.

For some reason this quote gave me a flashback to the period after my first wife died and before I remarried. The Stake announced they were having a fireside for the older singles, so I loaded up my van with a bunch of single sisters and off we went. What happened was to me one of the funniest bloopers I have ever witnessed, but I drove home a bunch of single sisters who were spitting nails they were so mad. Apparently the Stake had gotten in a training film intended for Bishops and Stake Presidencies about dealing with singles in our age category, it was not intended to be shown to the singles themselves. But somebody in the Stake was either sensitivity brain dead, or nobody actually checked out its contents. In any event it was the most condescending bit of stupidity I have ever watched, so much so I thought it hilarious, as I recall at one point it suggested getting them involved in crafts and quilting, etc. Fortunately, none of the Stake Presidency was there as they might have been a homicide. Anyway, Paradise seeming like a punishment somehow brought that to mind.

[canard78]

This assumes God has any control over it. Do you assume that because we call it Heavenly Father's Plan, that He actually designed it? Stop and think would you design a system that had flaws which could only be corrected by the brutal torture and death of your son? I don't think any parent would. No. There are other factors at play which God cannot change.

That's an odd concept. God had to? His God made him do it?

[canard78]

We are without God now yet we still feel his presence. Family who may be in a higher kingdom may still visit those in a lower. It's just like now where we may haven non-member in our family. They may not sit with us in church or go to the temple with us but we still have interaction with them.

The problem I have with those who accept that there is progress between kingdoms is that they feel it doesn't matter what choices they make now because some day they'll be able to make up for it when the scriptures clearly state "This life" is the time for men to prepare to meet God (this life including the post-mortal existence prior to resurrection). I know people who have said "Well, I might be wrong but if I am it will all work out" because they believe in this idea of progression between kingdoms.

The fact is we don't know one way or the other and it's interesting how both sides use scriptures to prove their points.

If that's the outcome of the 'progress' conclusion then it's a shame. That's certainly not my intention in arguing for progress.

I want to become the best I possibly can in this life and the next. If my best places me in Telestial or Terrestrial then I'd hope I'd still have the opportunity to continue progressing, not procrastinating.

Don't forget that many people have no belief in an after life and still want to become the best they can.

[Bikeemikey]

I have always found D&C 76 really interesting:

This verse has always seemed esspecially interesting:

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

Suggestive of a multiplicity of glories.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Stone holm]

That's an odd concept. God had to? His God made him do it?

If you follow a recipe to make a cake, you don't wind up with sausage. Presumably, the gods have been following a recipe for making exalted beings from eternity to eternity. Part of that recipe requires a Savior, I could elaborate on my speculations as to why. But that is beyond the scope of this thread. The point is, however, if Heavenly Father could not let the cup pass from Jesus, then it means He was bound by some requirement of the recipe. We cannot then assume that Heavenly Father can switch the immortal physical body of a spirit once it has attached. Also there is something in the teachings which suggests we acquiesce in being assigned to certain kingdoms because that is where we feel at home.

[Tacenda]

I like the thought of God incarnate, therefore giving His life for His children, not His son.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Tacenda

[Stone holm]

I like the thought of God incarnate, therefore giving His life for His children, not His son.

Well if that works for you fine, but that's not the the Mormon concept of Heavenly Father. However, it does involve His Son giving His life for His brothers and sisters which is kind of the same thing.

[Rob Osborn]

The concept of heaven for mormons is complex and confusing to say the least. I have been va mormon my whole life and have found the doctrine of heaven to bevery confusing. on the one hand you have a very clear concept of it as found in the Bible and Book of Mormon. on the other hand you have a very different piture as painted by the D&C and church manuals. The problem is that all of it together creates a certain amount or degree of contradiction that isnt eadily figured out. my own conclusion so far is that there is only one heaven and one hell in the end and that we use the time of now and the next life to gain entrance to one of those two places. Even the tempke suggests strongly that progression through kingdoms is part of the pkan of salvation

[Stone holm]

The concept of heaven for mormons is complex and confusing to say the least. I have been va mormon my whole life and have found the doctrine of heaven to bevery confusing. on the one hand you have a very clear concept of it as found in the Bible and Book of Mormon. on the other hand you have a very different piture as painted by the D&C and church manuals. The problem is that all of it together creates a certain amount or degree of contradiction that isnt eadily figured out. my own conclusion so far is that there is only one heaven and one hell in the end and that we use the time of now and the next life to gain entrance to one of those two places. Even the tempke suggests strongly that progression through kingdoms is part of the pkan of salvation

Although I don't agree with your conclusions, the argument regarding Temple rites is intriguing and even stronger as it was done in the older temples where you moved from room to room.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

To your thread question; yes we do teach universalism.

But not after final judgement...Brure R, wrote that one day all sin will be forgiven. This very difficultly means we will all have to forgive all things as well.

Some days I pray I have forgiven my bio-father, other days as I see my kids and grand kids grow...I don't know? Even though he is gone, I still must forgive him.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Rob Osborn]

Although I don't agree with your conclusions, the argument regarding Temple rites is intriguing and even stronger as it was done in the older temples where you moved from room to room.

I find it interesting that the endowment ceremony is supposed to be the plan of salvaion in a literal view but yet even though this plan requires moving from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial and then to the celestial kingdom, no mention is even hinted of this doctrine outside the temple. Why is this?

[Stone holm]

I find it interesting that the endowment ceremony is supposed to be the plan of salvaion in a literal view but yet even though this plan requires moving from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial and then to the celestial kingdom, no mention is even hinted of this doctrine outside the temple. Why is this?

I am not totally certain what the Temple is trying to teach. But it's method is not necessarily conducive to a correct doctrinal understanding. I don't think that is its purpose.

[Rob Osborn]

I am not totally certain what the Temple is trying to teach. But it's method is not necessarily conducive to a correct doctrinal understanding. I don't think that is its purpose.

I have wondered this- why not just get sprinkled with some holy water and be saved then? Why all of the doctrine concerning laws, kingdoms and progression? Per haps its been given to us but were to stubborn to see its truthfulness

[MDalby]

Just a few quotes on this topic...

The position of the First Presidency, as given through the Church Correlation Department in 2001 to Church curriculum writers is that we don’t have sufficient information at this time from the Lord to have a final answer on if after the final judgment a person can progress from one kingdom to another.

(David J Ridges, The Plan of Salvation)

"The position of the First Presidency on progression from one kingdom to a higher glory after the resurrection and judgment is that the Lord has not revealed this knowledge to mankind. Speculation and supposition on this topic is inappropriate."

(Memorandum from the First Presidency through the Church Correlation Department to Church curriculum writers, Ed Brandt, Church Correlation Department)

Brother ___________, March 5, 1952. This brother wrote, in part: "Please inform me to the teaching of the Church regarding the possibility of a person progressing from one kingdom to another after the resurrection." )

The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the Brethren have held that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the Brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

(Letter from Joseph L. Anderson, Secretary to the First Presidency, written on behalf of the First Presidency)

Reference is made to your letter of the December 7th in which you inquire what the teaching of the church is relative to the possibility of progression from one particular glory to another after the resurrection.

The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point, though some have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others have taken the opposite view. As indicated, however, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

(Letter from Joseph L. Anderson @ written on behalf of the First Presidency, to Joe J. Christiansen, Dec. 17, 1965.)

There is never a time when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 191)

If a man has knowledge, he can be saved; although, if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 357)

When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 321)

God hath made a provision that every spirit in the eternal world can be ferreted out and saved unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which cannot be remitted to him either in this world or the world of spirits. God has wrought out a salvation for all men, unless they have committed a certain sin; and every man who has a friend in the eternal world can save him, unless he has committed the unpardonable sin. And so you can see how far you can be a savior.

(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6)

[teddyaware]

The concept of heaven for mormons is complex and confusing to say the least. I have been va mormon my whole life and have found the doctrine of heaven to bevery confusing. on the one hand you have a very clear concept of it as found in the Bible and Book of Mormon. on the other hand you have a very different piture as painted by the D&C and church manuals. The problem is that all of it together creates a certain amount or degree of contradiction that isnt eadily figured out. my own conclusion so far is that there is only one heaven and one hell in the end and that we use the time of now and the next life to gain entrance to one of those two places. Even the tempke suggests strongly that progression through kingdoms is part of the pkan of salvation

I do not find the Mormon concept of heaven confusing, and I don't find the Bible and Book of Mormon at odds with the Doctrine and Covenants on this point. All the children of men, except for the sons of perdition, will be saved through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance. All save the sons of perdition will enter one of the Father's many mansions of glory, or in other words, heaven. Each will receive as much glory, power, might and dominion as they are capable of receiving, hence the degrees of glory in heaven. Nevertheless, all these kingdoms are part of heaven, even the Telestial Kingdom being so glorious and wonderfully marvelous, compared to earth life, that its wonders are utterly incomprehensible and inconceivable to the human mind. Each son or daughter of God will receive as much heaven as he or she can handle. Meanwhile, those who inhabit the telestial and terrestrial heavens will be ministered to by ministering messengers from higher realms of heaven, who will teach these saved beings how to grow in the grace, knowledge wisdom and power of God, for all intelligent beings are capable of growth, and God's loving kindness and mercy towards his children never ends.

Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

I do not find the Mormon concept of heaven confusing, and I don't find the Bible and Book of Mormon at odds with the Doctrine and Covenants on this point. All the children of men, except for the sons of perdition, will be saved through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ and repentance. All save the sons of perdition will enter one of the Father's many mansions of glory, or in other words, heaven. Each will receive as much glory, power, might and dominion as they are capable of receiving, hence the degrees of glory in heaven. Nevertheless, all these kingdoms are part of heaven, even the Telestial Kingdom being so glorious and wonderfully marvelous, compared to earth life, that its wonders are utterly incomprehensible and inconceivable to the human mind. Each son or daughter of God will receive as much heaven as he or she can handle. Meanwhile, those who inhabit the telestial and terrestrial heavens will be ministered to by ministering messengers from higher realms of heaven, who will teach these saved beings how to grow in the grace, knowledge wisdom and power of God, for all intelligent beings are capable of growth, and God's loving kindness and mercy towards his children never ends.

Let me ask- will everyone minus the sons of perdition have to be baptized in order to be saved?

[MDalby]

Those who die who are unaccountable for sin also do not require baptism. This includes those that die before the age of 8 and those that are mentally unaccountable.

[Stone holm]

Let me ask- will everyone minus the sons of perdition have to be baptized in order to be saved?

Those who die who are unaccountable for sin also do not require baptism. This includes those that die before the age of 8 and those that are mentally unaccountable.

I suspect the SOPs will also have to be baptised. There seems to be this assumption that the SOPs inherit the Telestial Kingdom after their sojourn in outer darkness. Does anybody have a CFR on that. It has always been my understanding that while their sojourn eventually ends their fate except to those who experience it will remain unknown.

[Rob Osborn]

Of all accountable souls, who must be baptized to be saved from hell?

[teddyaware]

Let me ask- will everyone minus the sons of perdition have to be baptized in order to be saved?

I have done much investigation on this subject and I am confident in saying that all, except for the sons of perdition, will be saved and all will be forgiven. Carefully read and ponder D&C 138 without any preconceived notions and you may be surprised. Also, carefully read the following selected verses from D&C 76 for more info: "38 Yea, verily, the only ones (i.e. the sons of perdition) who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness (this is speaking of all save the sons of perdition);

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D&C 76)

Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

I have done much investigation on this subject and I am confident in saying that all, except for the sons of perdition will be saved and all will be forgiven. Carefully read and ponder D&C 138 without any preconceived notions and you may be surprised.

If all are forgiven through obedience to gospel laws and ordinances, what then remains to keep them from the Fathers presence?

[canard78]

I find it interesting that the endowment ceremony is supposed to be the plan of salvaion in a literal view but yet even though this plan requires moving from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial and then to the celestial kingdom, no mention is even hinted of this doctrine outside the temple. Why is this?

The endowment is not literal. We're taught time and again that it is symbolic. There is much more 'figurative' than 'documentary' about it.

My perspective of moving between rooms is about 'real world' (Telestial, the world in which we now live), 'standing on holy ground' (Terrestrial, Temples etc), 'Extation' (Celetial).

But... You make a very interesting point. I'll happily add that to my layers of understanding.

Your point about the confusion (or at least the ambiguity) of heaven is also one that is fair. I have simplified it in my mind to 'eternal progress for all if they are willing.' The start point on this path to godliness is different for everyone (both here and there). I don't presume that because I'm Mormon I'm further up the path. In fact God might well have put in a Mormon environment because I'm so far back.

[teddyaware]

If all are forgiven through obedience to gospel laws and ordinances, what then remains to keep them from the Fathers presence?

They had to first go through the fires of hell before they would humble themselves, believe and repent. Please reread my previous post, edited above.

[canard78]

Thanks Teddyaware, interesting references.