Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants

[Questing Beast]

No it doesn't. I can be between age groups, between getting different degrees in school, between marriage and being single, etc. It indicates a distinction and bridging between those distinctions, Whether the between is a life event, a process of development, or actual place.

And the presumption about being alone and further aloneness is odd...i'm not following nor do i see the connection to the points I've made. My point was that we all are apart of God's glory/Kingdom, no matter what degree we receive. That these distinctions will be definite but do not have to designate different places or furthered alone-ness or whichever. But that whatever degree of glory we receive it will be a fullness unto us, fitting of our desires and acceptance/reception of God, and based on this earth and that the distinction, scripturally speaking, indicates more that it'll be definitive of capacity and as great as between the sun, moon, and stars. That's my point. Whether it's all one place or multiple isn't clear, though I personally lean that heaven is all one large place and all kingdoms are apart of heaven.

With luv,

BD

Then we "lean" in the same way. That's the point I've been making recently: that all the stars, moons and suns occupy the same "venue", none are separated elsewhere, they are all part of the apparently infinite cosmos. There is no basis for assuming that the "three degrees of glory" are separated physically, empirically, from each other. A "telestial" mind cannot comprehend the same degree of knowledge of a "celestial" mind, that's the separation. We don't consider our undeveloped children separated from ourselves, and neither will CK denizens consider telestials as being incapable of relating to them.

ALONENESS is our lot, except for the eternal contact we have directly with "God". The only way we have of alleviating it is through knowing each other. I believe that "God" prefers it this way, because it is the stuff of immortals to always get to know more people, enjoying the differences of expression and outlook. That was the point I was making about our natural isolation into "egocentric" worlds of ONE, yet mingling through our senses with everyone else we come into contact with. That feature is what makes mortality meaningful and rewarding, and I cannot see immortality being any different, just bigger and forever. Our "collection" of mortal experiences probably deepens our Joy in each other, since we participate, and share, these experiences as memories. And probably, each of us has the ability to "reenter" any mortal life we experience and "reset" what happens from that point. I have evidence for this belief in my own life....

[Freedom]

But by enduring it we are refined...the test alters us as it tests us.

So it is not a test in the way an exam that demonstrates our level of knowledge or skill is, it is more like a test that involves the entire class, including participation in discussion and such because through such participation our knowledge and confidence and skill increases or refined...though in the case of the test of mortality it is much, much more that is refined, our very soul, all that we are if we endure the test to the end and do not drop out and settle for less.

Again, I think this is splitting hairs. My math exam did not increase my skill or knowledge, my mortal probation did improve my skill and knowledge, therefore my mortal probation is not a test. This is a logical fallacy.

The mortal test is about us being willing to follow the commandments and to perfect ourselves. It is testing our willingness to follow God. Nevertheless, in LDS doctrine, this live is inarguabley a test.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Freedom

[Ahab]

D&C 19 establishes a few things:

The words Endless and Eternal torment in the scriptures doesn't mean "torment with no end" - it is simply another synonym for God. Like Wonderful, Prince of Peace... Endless, Eternal. Other names for God. (v. 4,10,11,12)

God (or Endless as we could also call him) warns that the non-repentant must suffer even as God suffered. They will have to experience the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth; the implications and consequences of their actions. The pain they have caused to others. (v. 4,5,15,16,17,20)

But... this pain will not be without end. If we will suffer "even as" he did, then we have to look at how he suffered. It caused him to "tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit." And then it ended: "I partook and finished..." (v.6,7,19)

This would therefore suggest that there is a doctrine in Mormonism for the opportunity for progression between kingdoms. If I was separated from my family or if my opportunity to improve myself was ended, that I was damned, then that would be agony, purgatory. I would weep and wail and gnash my teeth. There would only be one way to end that pain: progress (if I was willing to do the things needed to attain the next step of my progression). Anything less would leave me in torment without end. And our scriptures tell us that this is not an option.

In his Feb 5, 1840 public sermon Joseph is recorded as speaking on the topic:

Recorded in The History of the Church v.4,p78. Available on BYU.edu.

A part of the account of the sermon was quoted in the June 1994 Ensign

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Full scripture reference:

D&C 19:

Damn good preaching, canard. And you are right about this, of course, even if some people don't realize it as truth now.

If we don't repent from our sins then we will have hell to pay for it, and we'll be paying for it until the last farthing is paid. Hell is still not a good thing to have to experience, though, even when it is only temporary.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Ahab

[Calm]

Hell is still not a good thing to have to experience, though, even when it is only temporary.

I imagine Hell as one long combined moment of all the negative emotions--a major panic attack, road rage, burning embarrassment and shame, etc (hmm...it sounds like high school all over again)....all your worst moments in life all having to be endured at once with no drug or distraction available to soften the sensations or dampen the emotions. It is the closest thing I can think of to be immersed in fire without an actual flame to light one up. A day of that would be an eternity for me.

On a more serious note, I believe that those who have hurt others will experience Hell as if they were the victims themselves, all the pain that they have caused others coupled with the knowledge of what it would have been like for those people if they hadn't been victims will be placed upon them. It is kind of the reverse of what Christ did, who descended below all that we experience and took upon himself our burdens so he could know us so intimately he could save us while those bound in Hell are learning the most intimate and internal feelings of those they have harmed so that they can come to a recognition of what they have done and repent to open themselves up to the process of repentance and God's salvation. And those who refuse to care about those they harm will have to bear the full weight of that pain to satisfy Justice so that their victims will be completely liberated from their influence (think of how confronting one's abuser can help with the healing process especially if there is a recognition by the abuser of the harm that was done and how hard it is to heal when the abuse is denied by the abuser or diminished as trivial...how that creates even more pain for the abused, Hell will be the ultimate confrontation in my opinion...won't even need the presence of the abused though if they have moved past the need already through the healing of the Atonement). As humans, we have the need to be understood, not only by God but even by those who have hurt us...we need them to understand the pain they have caused so we can let go of it. Thankfully, since such understanding isn't all that common in this life, the Atonement offers such understanding and acceptance that we can move past all hurt and pain even without the repentance of the abuser or predator or even just the careless, self centered jerk.

Edited July 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Damn good preaching, canard. And you are right about this, of course, even if some people don't realize it as truth now.

If we don't repent from our sins then we will have hell to pay for it, and we'll be paying for it until the last farthing is paid. Hell is still not a good thing to have to experience, though, even when it is only temporary.

Thank you. And I agree, I have no desire to experience that hell, however long it lasts. Some presume that the idea of progress after punishment gives people a 'get out clause.' If people view it in that way then they've probably not read and understood the pain needed first.

[canard78]

I think you are splitting hairs. The test is the refiners fire - to see if we will endure it or not.

This life is a probationary state, a time to prepare to meet god.

I may prove them,whether they will walk in my law: Ex. 16:4 .

God is come to prove you: Ex. 20:20

that ye may be tried: Rev. 2:10 .

we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things: Abr. 3:25 .

Yes, I like all of those too. But it's not to see if we will pass or fail. God's not trying to raise a bar to try to trip us up. He is proving us to improve us. We are here to "become" not simply obey without cause.

To paraphrase a saying: "obedience creates habits, habits create character, character creates our destiny."

Edited July 12, 2013 by canard78

[Ahab]

I imagine Hell as one long combined moment of all the negative emotions--a major panic attack, road rage, burning embarrassment and shame, etc (hmm...it sounds like high school all over again)....all your worst moments in life all having to be endured at once with no drug or distraction available to soften the sensations or dampen the emotions. It is the closest thing I can think of to be immersed in fire without an actual flame to light one up. A day of that would be an eternity for me.

Whoa! Deja vu! Stop scaring me, calmoriah!

Happy thoughts. I'm thinking happy thoughts now.

[Calm]

Happy thoughts. I'm thinking happy thoughts now.

Add a little pixie dust to have a really fun afternoon....

[Stone holm]

Add a little pixie dust to have a really fun afternoon....

The power of happy thoughts