Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants

[canard78]

D&C 19 establishes a few things:

The words Endless and Eternal torment in the scriptures doesn't mean "torment with no end" - it is simply another synonym for God. Like Wonderful, Prince of Peace... Endless, Eternal. Other names for God. (v. 4,10,11,12)

God (or Endless as we could also call him) warns that the non-repentant must suffer even as God suffered. They will have to experience the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth; the implications and consequences of their actions. The pain they have caused to others. (v. 4,5,15,16,17,20)

But... this pain will not be without end. If we will suffer "even as" he did, then we have to look at how he suffered. It caused him to "tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit." And then it ended: "I partook and finished..." (v.6,7,19)

This would therefore suggest that there is a doctrine in Mormonism for the opportunity for progression between kingdoms. If I was separated from my family or if my opportunity to improve myself was ended, that I was damned, then that would be agony, purgatory. I would weep and wail and gnash my teeth. There would only be one way to end that pain: progress (if I was willing to do the things needed to attain the next step of my progression). Anything less would leave me in torment without end. And our scriptures tell us that this is not an option.

In his Feb 5, 1840 public sermon Joseph is recorded as speaking on the topic:

He said very little of rewards and punishments; but one conclusion, from what he did say, was irresistible—he contended throughout, that everything which had a beginning must have an ending; and consequently if the punishment of man commenced in the next world, it must, according to his logic and belief have an end... he again repeated that all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved.

Recorded in The History of the Church v.4,p78. Available on BYU.edu.

A part of the account of the sermon was quoted in the June 1994 Ensign

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Full scripture reference:

D&C 19:

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

Edited July 6, 2013 by canard78

[Stone holm]

D&C 19 establishes a few things:

The words Endless and Eternal torment in the scriptures doesn't mean "torment with no end" - it is simply another synonym for God. Like Wonderful, Prince of Peace... Endless, Eternal. Other names for God. (v. 4,10,11,12)

God (or Endless as we could also call him) warns that the non-repentant must suffer even as God suffered. They will have to experience the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth; the implications and consequences of their actions. The pain they have caused to others. (v. 4,5,15,16,17,20)

But... this pain will not be without end. If we will suffer "even as" he did, then we have to look at how he suffered. It caused him to "tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit." And then it ended: "I partook and finished..." (v.6,7,19)

This would therefore suggest that there is a doctrine in Mormonism for the opportunity for progression between kingdoms. If I was separated from my family or if my opportunity to improve myself was ended, that I was damned, then that would be agony, purgatory. I would weep and wail and gnash my teeth. There would only be one way to end that pain: progress (if I was willing to do the things needed to attain the next step of my progression). Anything less would leave me in torment without end. And our scriptures tell us that this is not an option.

In his Feb 5, 1840 public sermon Joseph is recorded as speaking on the topic:

Recorded in The History of the Church v.4,p78. Available on BYU.edu.

A part of the account of the sermon was quoted in the June 1994 Ensign

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Full scripture reference:

D&C 19:

The word "saved" does not necessarily imply gaining the Celestial Kingdom. As the old saying goes salvation without exaltation is damnation. Do you have any specific authority for the ability to gain the Celestial Kingdom once assigned a lesser Kingdom and having received a non-Celestial body?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It is important to distinguish between when the time between death and the Resurrection/Judgement is being referred to and when the time after Final Judgement- Eternity- is being referred to.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Hell yeah. I absolutely believe in Eternal Progression, which would of course include progression between Kingdoms. Anything less just doesn't make sense to me. I think the important point about the various "glories" is the idea that there are more than one, that it's not a binary "Heaven or Hell", "Back Versus White", "On Versus Off" kind of thing that allows us to categorize others way-too-neatly into Good Guys Versus Bad Guys; instead, it's a gradation, a continuum, multiple steps and degrees of Ascent. The point isn't to worry about which degree you're at during any given moment, the point is to be continually striving to do better, to be facing up on Jacob's ladder rather than sitting still on the same rung and stagnating, or heading downward.

[canard78]

The word "saved" does not necessarily imply gaining the Celestial Kingdom. As the old saying goes salvation without exaltation is damnation. Do you have any specific authority for the ability to gain the Celestial Kingdom once assigned a lesser Kingdom and having received a non-Celestial body?

Even without the 'saved' quote from Joseph Smith there's the simple statement in D&C 19 that all 'torment has an end.'

[LordUther]

When I first read this thread I have to admit I did a little eye roll & thought "of course there's no progression between kingdoms...EVERYONE knows that, that's standard" and merrily went off looking for the D&C references to prove it...there are none! I knew there was a reference saying that progression ends for some but when I found it realised it was about the 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom and refers to those who refused to marry. (D&C131). What I did find was this great little website that discusses the issue...It seems Brigham Young, Wilfred Woodruff & Hyrum Smith (among others) taught that there was. Now the interesting one there for me is Hyrum, it was his brother Joseph that taught us all we know about the degrees of glory so surely must've discussed the matter with him and if anyone knew Joseph did! So for me the answer now is yes there will be.

http://probationarystate.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/progression-between-kingdoms.html

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Even without the 'saved' quote from Joseph Smith there's the simple statement in D&C 19 that all 'torment has an end.'

That is in reference to the time between death and the final judgement

After going through the torment and punishment of the wicked, even the Telestial Kingdom will be a welcome relief.for those assigned there- after having a small taste of what the Sons of Perdition will suffer through unending ages.

[Nofear]

It is a rather unsettled doctrine -- I've seen opinions from latter-day prophets and apostles going both ways. While I tend to side on the option of going between kingdoms it isn't something that the Lord intends on publicizing -- presumabely, in part, for the reason that we mortals are sometimes inclined to procrastinate; but now is the day of our repentance (Alma 34:33).

[canard78]

That is in reference to the time between death and the final judgement

After going through the torment and punishment of the wicked, even the Telestial Kingdom will be a welcome relief.for those assigned there- after having a small taste of what the Sons of Perdition will suffer through unending ages.

That contradicts D&C 19. If I am limited for eternity in my ability to associate with others or develop limitlessly, then that would be a form of purgatory. No matter how wonderful and "better than earth" the telestial is, eventually it would get pretty boring after 16billion years. Some may be content to be there.

FWIW, I know President Spencer W. Kimball said:

Exaltation in the celestial kingdom will be granted to those only who enter and faithfully observe the covenant of celestial marriage. Christ says in unmistakable terms:

In the celestial glory there are three heavens, or degrees;

And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

He may enter into the other but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase (D&C 131:1-4. Italics added.)

He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation! That means worlds without end. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right.

But I'd consider that to be simply more of prophetic statements that are: "more express... that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory." (D&C 19:7). If God can have Joseph lie about Polygamy for the sake of the people then I'm sure He can ask other prophets to make statements about 'progress' between kingdoms 'for effect.' It would be a shame if people wasted the opportunity to double their 1,2 or 5 talents simply because they thought they could do it tomorrow. So I'm not advocating an 'eat drink and be merry' approach to life. But I'm suggesting that for their to be and end to torment, it would have to include opportunities for eternal progression, else it would be torment. It may well be that the character and habits we form in this life means that those who qualify for telestial/terrestrial never get around to making the necessary steps to progress to the next level, but the option needs to be there.

And "The Church does not take an official position on this issue"

http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Three_degrees_of_glory/Progression_between_kingdoms

[canard78]

The FAIRmormon article mentioned above also quotes this:

A major scriptural argument against this idea comes from the Doctrine and Covenants, speaking of the telestial kingdom: But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;...And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76:109–112).

This seems to suggest that for telestial residents, at least, there can be no advancement to terrestrial or celestial.

But I read this differently. This only says that those who are in the Telestial kingdom can't see God and Christ. That's like saying you can't see the doctor in the waiting room. Well... duh... stand up and walk over to the consulting room then. It may well require work to prepare. It may well take millions of years (which would be frustrating if we could have qualified in 80 years with the right choices)... but the idea that a loving Father would simply cut off a swathe of his children permanently is foreign to me.

[Deborah]

I have difficulty with the concept of progressing between kingdoms because the scriptures seem to indicate we are resurrected to a body which is specifically prepared for the kingdom we will enter. Alma 11:

41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

42 Now, there is a death which is called a temporal death; and the death of Christ shall loose the bands of this temporal death, that all shall be raised from this temporal death.

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

We have an opportunity in the Spirit World to repent and change before coming for the final judgement, but once we receive that judgement and "perfect body" for whatever kingdom we are sent it seems to be final as far as the body we will receive, ie Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial. Furthermore D&C 76:111 and 112 says "For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. "

Now we know there are at least three degrees within the Celestial kingdom, so why not assume there are degrees in the lower kingdoms. My belief is that there is progression within kingdoms but not between kingdoms.

[Stone holm]

I have difficulty with the concept of progressing between kingdoms because the scriptures seem to indicate we are resurrected to a body which is specifically prepared for the kingdom we will enter. Alma 11:

We have an opportunity in the Spirit World to repent and change before coming for the final judgement, but once we receive that judgement and "perfect body" for whatever kingdom we are sent it seems to be final as far as the body we will receive, ie Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial. Furthermore D&C 76:111 and 112 says "For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. "

Now we know there are at least three degrees within the Celestial kingdom, so why not assume there are degrees in the lower kingdoms. My belief is that there is progression within kingdoms but not between kingdoms.

This has always been my understanding as well. Am trying to remember where I read that you need the type of body for that Kingdom.

[BlueDreams]

This has always been my understanding as well. Am trying to remember where I read that you need the type of body for that Kingdom.

D&C 88.....does this sound right?

26 Wherefore, it shall be ^asanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall^bdie, it shall be ^cquickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the ^drighteous shall ^einherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall ^arise again, a^bspiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial ^aspirit shall receive the same ^bbodywhich was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your ^cglory shall be that glory by which your bodies are^dquickened.

[Stone holm]

D&C 88.....does this sound right?

26 Wherefore, it shall be ^asanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall^bdie, it shall be ^cquickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the ^drighteous shall ^einherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall ^arise again, a^bspiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial ^aspirit shall receive the same ^bbodywhich was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your ^cglory shall be that glory by which your bodies are^dquickened.

Yes.

[teddyaware]

D&C 19 establishes a few things:

The words Endless and Eternal torment in the scriptures doesn't mean "torment with no end" - it is simply another synonym for God. Like Wonderful, Prince of Peace... Endless, Eternal. Other names for God. (v. 4,10,11,12)

God (or Endless as we could also call him) warns that the non-repentant must suffer even as God suffered. They will have to experience the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth; the implications and consequences of their actions. The pain they have caused to others. (v. 4,5,15,16,17,20)

But... this pain will not be without end. If we will suffer "even as" he did, then we have to look at how he suffered. It caused him to "tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit." And then it ended: "I partook and finished..." (v.6,7,19)

This would therefore suggest that there is a doctrine in Mormonism for the opportunity for progression between kingdoms. If I was separated from my family or if my opportunity to improve myself was ended, that I was damned, then that would be agony, purgatory. I would weep and wail and gnash my teeth. There would only be one way to end that pain: progress (if I was willing to do the things needed to attain the next step of my progression). Anything less would leave me in torment without end. And our scriptures tell us that this is not an option.

In his Feb 5, 1840 public sermon Joseph is recorded as speaking on the topic:

Recorded in The History of the Church v.4,p78. Available on BYU.edu.

A part of the account of the sermon was quoted in the June 1994 Ensign

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Full scripture reference:

D&C 19:

One of the important things to focus on when addressing this issue is that, according to D&C 76, the inhabitants of the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are ministered to by beings from the Celestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms respectively. It would seem very unlikely that the ministers from the higher realms visit the inhabitants of the lower regions only to torment these souls with cruel taunts that they "blew it." Rather, it seems very likely they are ministering to them (i.e. teaching them information pertaining to higher orders of things) so that they can grow and progress.

Exactly how that growth and progression will be manifested in those who are ministered to has not yet been fully revealed. Perhaps we will need a new revelation that picks up where D&C 76 leaves off before we will know the details. Nevertheless, there is no doubt but that these inhabitants of the lower kingdoms are being taught importand things to know by those of higher kingdoms -- that much we know. This following is as far as Lord was willing to go pertaining to the subject at hand:

113This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; (D&C 76)

Edited July 6, 2013 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

One of the important things to focus on when addressing this issue is that, according to D&C 76, the inhabitants of the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are ministered to by beings from the Celestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms respectively. It would seem very unlikely that the ministers from the higher realms visit the inhabitants of the lower regions only to torment these souls with cruel taunts that they "blew it." Rather, it seems very likely they are ministering to them (i.e. teaching them information pertaining to higher orders of things) so that they can grow and progress.

Exactly how that growth and progression will be manifested in those who are ministered to has not yet been fully revealed. Perhaps we will need a new revelation that picks up where D&C 76 leaves off before we will know the details. Nevertheless, there is no doubt but that these inhabitants of the lower kingdoms are being taught importand things to know by those of higher kingdoms -- that much we know. This following is as far as Lord was willing to go pertaining to the subject at hand:

113This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; (D&C 76)

I don't believe they are sent to torment. It has been suggested that the beauty and glory of the Telestial Kingdom is so great that if we were unduly made aware of it, we might commit suicide just to get there.

[changed]

I believe that time as we know it will cease to exist beyond the veil..

(Book of Mormon | Alma 40:8 all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

If time does not exist, then "forever" does not really exist as we see it either.

Edited July 6, 2013 by changed

[teddyaware]

I don't believe they are sent to torment. It has been suggested that the beauty and glory of the Telestial Kingdom is so great that if we were unduly made aware of it, we might commit suicide just to get there.

My point is that it is logical to believe there is progression of some sort for the inhabitants of the lower two kingdoms, the reason being that they are taught and ministered to by those of higher order of kingdom. Why bother to minister to them if there's no progression. And you are right, the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms will likely not be seen as much (if any) of a damnation for those who dwell there. The reason? The glory of those kingdoms will very likely be as much of heaven as they can appreciate anyway.

[thesometimesaint]

The word "saved" does not necessarily imply gaining the Celestial Kingdom. As the old saying goes salvation without exaltation is damnation. Do you have any specific authority for the ability to gain the Celestial Kingdom once assigned a lesser Kingdom and having received a non-Celestial body?

Even if we gain the Celestial Kingdom it will still be a great work to gain our exaltation. I believe that while there is eternal progress within the Kingdoms there is no progression between Kingdoms.

[CV75]

the opportunity for progression between kingdoms.

I think Mormon doctrine would allow one to believe it, but i'm not sure if it would be doctrine, or correct doctrine.

There would only be one way to end that pain: progress

Not really; human beings have a marvelous capacity to get used to anything.

[Deborah]

Say one does gain exaltation. I would assume that doesn't mean they stop learning and growing even after doing so. So why does it mean someone in another kingdom stops learning and growing even when they have reached the highest level of that kingdom?

[Stone holm]

Say one does gain exaltation. I would assume that doesn't mean they stop learning and growing even after doing so. So why does it mean someone in another kingdom stops learning and growing even when they have reached the highest level of that kingdom?

One doesn't, and they don't either. But that does not mean they get to switch bodies again.

[canard78]

I don't believe they are sent to torment. It has been suggested that the beauty and glory of the Telestial Kingdom is so great that if we were unduly made aware of it, we might commit suicide just to get there.

I've been to earth's glorious places. One was a breathtaking moment, stood at the rim of a dormant volcano in the Philippines with my wife and children before riding the horses down into the crater to swim in the lake that filled the bowl of the crater.

If I multiply that by a million I'm sure I still can't even begin to imagine what it will be like in the telestial kingdom. But eventually it would still be a place that would make me weep/wail/gnash my teeth. That would eventually be a place of torment because of opportunities being denied. Why would God be so willing and ready to forgive during 80 years of mortality, but then remove the concept of grace and second chances in the next stage of our eternal journey?

Of course the prophets need to teach us to "not procrastinate the day of our repentance to the end," otherwise many of us would just put it off to the next life.

[canard78]

Say one does gain exaltation. I would assume that doesn't mean they stop learning and growing even after doing so. So why does it mean someone in another kingdom stops learning and growing even when they have reached the highest level of that kingdom?

Learning and growing to what? And without God? Without family? Those who go there are not some other species of goat or cattle, happy to graze on the eternities of blandness.

[Stone holm]

I've been to earth's glorious places. One was a breathtaking moment, stood at the rim of a dormant volcano in the Philippines with my wife and children before riding the horses down into the crater to swim in the lake that filled the bowl of the crater.

If I multiply that by a million I'm sure I still can't even begin to imagine what it will be like in the telestial kingdom. But eventually it would still be a place that would make me weep/wail/gnash my teeth. That would eventually be a place of torment because of opportunities being denied. Why would God be so willing and ready to forgive during 80 years of mortality, but then remove the concept of grace and second chances in the next stage of our eternal journey?

Of course the prophets need to teach us to "not procrastinate the day of our repentance to the end," otherwise many of us would just put it off to the next life.

This assumes God has any control over it. Do you assume that because we call it Heavenly Father's Plan, that He actually designed it? Stop and think would you design a system that had flaws which could only be corrected by the brutal torture and death of your son? I don't think any parent would. No. There are other factors at play which God cannot change.