Mormon Doctrine Allows For Universal Exaltation And Progress - Even For Telestial/Terrestrial Inhabitants

[Calm]

It has always been my understanding that while their sojourn eventually ends their fate except to those who experience it will remain unknown.

My understanding is the opposite.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

"final doom" is used in the second cite so unless "final" has an more nuanced meaning then we currently understand.....

Edited July 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

If all are forgiven through obedience to gospel laws and ordinances, what then remains to keep them from the Fathers presence?

Their own desires.

[Stone holm]

My understanding is the opposite.

http://www.lds.org/s...dition?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/s...dition?lang=eng

"final doom" is used in the second cite so unless "final" has an more nuanced meaning then we currently understand.....

Yes it has a more nuanced meaning. We are told that outer darkness banishment finally ends, but their fate after that is not known to anyone except those assigned to it. I assume it is some kind of kingdom, but I don't think that we can assume that it is a kingdom of glory such as the Telestial Kingdom.

[Calm]

Yes it has a more nuanced meaning. We are told that outer darkness banishment finally ends

CFR please

[thesometimesaint]

If all are forgiven through obedience to gospel laws and ordinances, what then remains to keep them from the Fathers presence?

When we do as the Lord says he is bound, when we don't we have no promise.

The desires of their hearts.

[canard78]

Their own desires.

I think this is the most likely of all.

But it's for exactly that reason I believe in progress between kingdoms. Desires change and I can't imagine a loving parent ever saying 'too late, you had your 80 years, now you have to live with it for the next trillion+infinity.

Desires change, an old dog learns new tricks.

[Nofear]

Just a few quotes on this topic...

The position of the First Presidency, as given through the Church Correlation Department in 2001 to Church curriculum writers is that we don’t have sufficient information at this time from the Lord to have a final answer on if after the final judgment a person can progress from one kingdom to another.

(David J Ridges, The Plan of Salvation)

"The position of the First Presidency on progression from one kingdom to a higher glory after the resurrection and judgment is that the Lord has not revealed this knowledge to mankind. Speculation and supposition on this topic is inappropriate."

(Memorandum from the First Presidency through the Church Correlation Department to Church curriculum writers, Ed Brandt, Church Correlation Department)

Brother ___________, March 5, 1952. This brother wrote, in part: "Please inform me to the teaching of the Church regarding the possibility of a person progressing from one kingdom to another after the resurrection." )

The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the Brethren have held that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the Brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

(Letter from Joseph L. Anderson, Secretary to the First Presidency, written on behalf of the First Presidency)

Reference is made to your letter of the December 7th in which you inquire what the teaching of the church is relative to the possibility of progression from one particular glory to another after the resurrection.

The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point, though some have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others have taken the opposite view. As indicated, however, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

(Letter from Joseph L. Anderson @ written on behalf of the First Presidency, to Joe J. Christiansen, Dec. 17, 1965.)

Great post! Data = good. Plus, it's nice when one (me ) posts something/takes a position consistent with letters from the First Presidency.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Nofear

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The idea of progressing from kingdom to kingdom until a full inheritance in Celestial Glory is had leaves open the implication that some never had the chance to obtain Celestial Glory. I find this patently false...

Every person that ever lived will have every opportunity they need to choose life in the Celestial Kingdom, or to choose something lesser, before the Final Judgement. No one will be denied equal opportunity to obtain the richest blessings of heaven. That is why the judgments passed at the Final Judgement will be permanent.

[Calm]

Just a few quotes on this topic...

Since I can find no other source but you online, I am wondering if this is your own personal research, if so bravo and if not, thank you for bringing it to my attention.....and where did you find it?

I am thinking it would be nice to add them to the FAIR site if we don't already have them (and from a quick skim I don't see them).

[Rob Osborn]

I am pretty sure that everyone who comes to repentance and baptism will dedire to return to Heavenly Father. And, if they are cleansed through the atonement then who is kept away?

[thesometimesaint]

I think this is the most likely of all.

But it's for exactly that reason I believe in progress between kingdoms. Desires change and I can't imagine a loving parent ever saying 'too late, you had your 80 years, now you have to live with it for the next trillion+infinity.

Desires change, an old dog learns new tricks.

Yet in the Resurrection we will definitely be given our bodies appropriate to the Kingdom to which we belong. It is not God that says it's too late. It is we whom choose. God will not force any man to Heaven.

[Stone holm]

CFR please

I am still looking, but these come close. "Eternal punishment" is God's punishment, it does not necessarily connote unending. On the other hand, I do not think there is authority that the S o P's will ever inherit the Telestial Kingdom after the eternal punishment. It is repeatedly said that we do not know their ultimate fate and that only the partakers thereof will know it. That being said, there appears to be two theories: 1) they will inhabit darkened planets, and 2) that they will eventually disintegrate and be recycled. As I have mentioned in previous comments, the problem with migrating between the Kingdoms is the assignment of the immortal physical bodies which cannot stand the environment of the higher glories. The S of P's have resurrected bodies of filth which cannot tolerate the higher kingdoms. Here are the links that discuss this.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Sons_of_Perdition

http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/PDF/Quotes/Sons%20of%20Perdition.pdf

[MDalby]

I suspect the SOPs will also have to be baptised. There seems to be this assumption that the SOPs inherit the Telestial Kingdom after their sojourn in outer darkness. Does anybody have a CFR on that. It has always been my understanding that while their sojourn eventually ends their fate except to those who experience it will remain unknown.

Baptism is only required for the Celestial Kingdom.

A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit.

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)

But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation…. The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)

Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

I wish to say that we do not know the terms nor the conditions that candidates for Telestial or Terrestrial Glory may have to comply with. All that we have been given in the principle of the Gospel, including baptism by water, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, are means to prepare and admit men and women into the Celestial Kingdom. We are not preparing candidates for Terrestrial or Telestial Glory. That is not the work we are doing. I presume after this life, in the spirit world, among those great hosts of our Father's children who are candidates for this kingdom I am now talking about, we will be given clearly to understand what the principles are they must comply with. We do know, however, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Absolute obedience will be required. It may be they will have to have baptism. Yet I know not; the Lord has not revealed it. I think it is well we are striving exclusively for the Celestial Kingdom, not for the Terrestrial or Telestial. Now this is the place provided for those who die without law.

(Melvin J Ballard, Three Degrees of Glory, Oqden Tabernacle, Sept. 22, 1922)

[Stone holm]

Baptism is only required for the Celestial Kingdom.

A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit.

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)

But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation…. The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)

Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

I wish to say that we do not know the terms nor the conditions that candidates for Telestial or Terrestrial Glory may have to comply with. All that we have been given in the principle of the Gospel, including baptism by water, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, are means to prepare and admit men and women into the Celestial Kingdom. We are not preparing candidates for Terrestrial or Telestial Glory. That is not the work we are doing. I presume after this life, in the spirit world, among those great hosts of our Father's children who are candidates for this kingdom I am now talking about, we will be given clearly to understand what the principles are they must comply with. We do know, however, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Absolute obedience will be required. It may be they will have to have baptism. Yet I know not; the Lord has not revealed it. I think it is well we are striving exclusively for the Celestial Kingdom, not for the Terrestrial or Telestial. Now this is the place provided for those who die without law.

(Melvin J Ballard, Three Degrees of Glory, Oqden Tabernacle, Sept. 22, 1922)

I tend to go with the Ballard quote.

[thesometimesaint]

The endowment is not literal. We're taught time and again that it is symbolic. There is much more 'figurative' than 'documentary' about it.

My perspective of moving between rooms is about 'real world' (Telestial, the world in which we now live), 'standing on holy ground' (Terrestrial, Temples etc), 'Extation' (Celetial).

But... You make a very interesting point. I'll happily add that to my layers of understanding.

Your point about the confusion (or at least the ambiguity) of heaven is also one that is fair. I have simplified it in my mind to 'eternal progress for all if they are willing.' The start point on this path to godliness is different for everyone (both here and there). I don't presume that because I'm Mormon I'm further up the path. In fact God might well have put in a Mormon environment because I'm so far back.

If Eternal Progression is available for all. Does there come a point when a lower Kingdom person progresses to the point of being a Celestial Kingdom person?

Or maybe God put you there to challenge the Wasatch Front ideology.

[Stone holm]

If Eternal Progression is available for all. Does there come a point when a lower Kingdom person progresses to the point of being a Celestial Kingdom person?

Or maybe God put you there to challenge the Wasatch Front ideology.

"Wasatch Front ideology" what is that?

[thesometimesaint]

"Wasatch Front ideology" what is that?

Old joke from the 1970's. Nothing gets in and nothing gets out.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Old joke from the 1970's. Nothing gets in and nothing gets out.

Like good plumbing?

[teddyaware]

Baptism is only required for the Celestial Kingdom.

A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit.

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)

But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation…. The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25)

Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

I wish to say that we do not know the terms nor the conditions that candidates for Telestial or Terrestrial Glory may have to comply with. All that we have been given in the principle of the Gospel, including baptism by water, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, are means to prepare and admit men and women into the Celestial Kingdom. We are not preparing candidates for Terrestrial or Telestial Glory. That is not the work we are doing. I presume after this life, in the spirit world, among those great hosts of our Father's children who are candidates for this kingdom I am now talking about, we will be given clearly to understand what the principles are they must comply with. We do know, however, that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. Absolute obedience will be required. It may be they will have to have baptism. Yet I know not; the Lord has not revealed it. I think it is well we are striving exclusively for the Celestial Kingdom, not for the Terrestrial or Telestial. Now this is the place provided for those who die without law.

(Melvin J Ballard, Three Degrees of Glory, Oqden Tabernacle, Sept. 22, 1922)

Interestingly, I believe the possible requirement of baptism for those who inherit the lower kingdoms may have already been answered in the scriptures. Before D&C 138 was added to our scriptures, when it was simply known as the vision of Joseph F. Smith, I knew that if it were ever added to our canon it would be a game changer. The reason being that there are things taught within the account of that vision that are not found anywhere else in the scriptures. Here's an example:

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands..." (D&C 132)

So here's the rub: D&C 76 tells us those who were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus while on earth and those who rejected the living prophets and the truth during their earthly sojourns are not to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Yet the above tells us that these same wicked people, as spirits in the spirit prison, are taught:

"faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands..."

This begs the following question: Why are the wicked in hell, who rebelliously rejected the prophets and the gospel on earth, taught, as spirits, about vicarious baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost if these ordinances do not pertain to them? Food for thought...

Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware

[MDalby]

This begs the following question: Why are the wicked in hell, who rebelliously rejected the prophets and the gospel on earth, taught, as spirits, about vicarious baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost if these ordinances do not pertain to them? Food for thought...

The answer is because it does apply to them.

[Rob Osborn]

Now we ate starting to understand why mormon heaven is a complex issue. On the one hand you have doctrine that states baptism is only required for the highest glory of heaven and that it is possible to be saved into heaven without baptism. And then, on the other hand, you have scriptures that state it is impossibke to be saved in any degree from hell without baptism. The entire Bible and Book of Mormon, PoGp, and most of the D&C state that it is impossible to be saved from the damnation of hell without repentance and baptism. The doctrine that throws everything out of balance is a few sections from the D&C concerning the three kingdoms of gliry. What you end up with is a contradicting doctrine concerning heaven. Then, if you throw in the temple doctrine it adds to the confusion. My belief is that because the temple doctrine was the last to be revealed that it should be the standard by which all doctrine should thus be discerned. With this scenerio, if it is correct, the two lower kingdoms are not permanent kingdoms after resurrection but rather just temporary stages of the earth until it becomes the celestial kingdom.

[Stone holm]

I tend to go with the Ballard quote.

Having reconsidered this, I tend to go back to my first conclusion -- it is kind of a moot point, because it will only really be a matter of whether they accept the baptism because by then we will have already baptized them by proxy. Meanwhile, while working on a CFR for Calmoriah I was shocked to learn that some have opined that there will be no daughters of perdition -- bet that will come as a shock to a couple of the brethren in our ward with respect to their ex's....just kidding.

[teddyaware]

The answer is because it does apply to them.

The context is that these forks who rebelled on earth against the prophets and the gospel are not, according to D&C 76, going to be inheritors of the Celestial Kingdom. Read the following for clarification about some of those who inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. yet Joseph F. Smith tells us same peopleare taught the following: (D&C 76)

These are exactly the class of people Joseph F Smith is referring to in D&C 138; yet the following is what he says about them:

"32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. 37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. (D&C 138)

Again I ask, why teach these ordinances, and their purposes, to those destined for kingdoms lower than the Celestial Kingdom if there is no need for them consider or worry about them. Think out of the box a little bit and open your mind, you might be surprised what you might learn...

Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware

[MDalby]

Teddyaware,

The answer is that the baptism does apply to them because they do not necessarily have to be inheritors of a lower kingdom.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

(D&C 138:58)

Yes, in the next life we will have our wives, and our sons and daughters. If we do not get them all at once, we will have them some time, for every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ. You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity…

God will have His own way in His own time, and He will accomplish His purposes in the salvation of His sons and daughters… God bless you, brethren and sisters. Do not be discouraged is the word I wish to pass to you.”

(President Lorenzo Snow, CR, Oct 1893)

The antediluvians rejected the word of God; but they were the sons and daughters of God, and He did not reject them, only for a time. After twenty-five hundred years had passed away the Lord revealed himself to them again and gave them another opportunity. Then they no doubt accepted, generally if not altogether, that which they refused in the days of Noah. The people of this generation may not receive our testimony here, but they will receive it at some future time, from us or from some other servants of God.

(President Lorenzo Snow, CR, April 1901)

You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don't give them up. Don't cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours-long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend.

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared-and he never taught more comforting doctrine-that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or in the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tred a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.

Who are these straying sheep—these wayward sons and daughters? They are children of the Covenant, heirs to the promises, and have received, if baptized, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which makes manifest the things of God. Could all that go for naught?

(Orson F. Whitney, CR, Apr. 1929, 110)

We emphasize that the greatest work you will do will be within the walls of your home (see Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, April 1973, p.130), and that 'no other success can compensate for failure in the home' (see David O. Mckay, in Conference Report, April 1935, p.116). The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgement would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible. It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons and daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should. It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled... We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them.

(Boyd K. Packer, CR, Apr. 1992, 94-95)

God is not trying to damn the world, but to save it. All will be saved except "the sons of perdition," those who have had every opportunity to be saved-yes, saved and exalted. They who have known God, and have "tasted of the powers of the world to come," and then have thrown it all away, trampling upon the Truth as a thing of naught, denying the Holy Ghost, and "crucifying the Lord afresh";-these cannot be saved, for salvation is predicated upon repentance, and such have sinned away the power to repent. This is what makes their case hopeless. But comparatively few go that far. All the rest will be saved, and eventually glorified.

(Elder Orson F. Whitney, Strength of the "Mormon" Position)

Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, “Listen to this!" ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ ”

“There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.”

(Boyd K. Packer, CR, Ensign, Nov. 1995, 20–21)

What is it to be damned? Does it mean that all who come under that sentence shall be cast into hell, there to dwell forever and forever? The light of the century, given by the Lord, declares the falsity of that construction. . . . And except for those few, who have betrayed their trust and who have forfeited the very ability to repent—and they are few—every soul that has ever been tabernacled in flesh upon the earth shall be redeemed and shall be saved in his degree of worthiness and desert. . . . During this hundred years many other great truths not known before, have been declared to the people, and one of the greatest is that to hell there is an exit as well as an entrance. . . . No man will be kept in hell longer than is necessary to bring him to a fitness for something better. . . . The Lord has not abated in the least what he has said in earlier dispensations concerning the operation of his law and his gospel, but he has made clear unto us his goodness and mercy through it all, for it is his glory and his work to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man."

(Elder James E. Talmage, CR, Apr. 1930, pp. 95-97)

[teddyaware]

Teddyaware,

The answer is that the baptism does apply to them because they do not necessarily have to be inheritors of a lower kingdom.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

(D&C 138:58)

Yes, in the next life we will have our wives, and our sons and daughters. If we do not get them all at once, we will have them some time, for every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ. You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity…

God will have His own way in His own time, and He will accomplish His purposes in the salvation of His sons and daughters… God bless you, brethren and sisters. Do not be discouraged is the word I wish to pass to you.”

(President Lorenzo Snow, CR, Oct 1893)

The antediluvians rejected the word of God; but they were the sons and daughters of God, and He did not reject them, only for a time. After twenty-five hundred years had passed away the Lord revealed himself to them again and gave them another opportunity. Then they no doubt accepted, generally if not altogether, that which they refused in the days of Noah. The people of this generation may not receive our testimony here, but they will receive it at some future time, from us or from some other servants of God.

(President Lorenzo Snow, CR, April 1901)

You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don't give them up. Don't cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours-long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend.

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared-and he never taught more comforting doctrine-that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or in the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tred a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.

Who are these straying sheep—these wayward sons and daughters? They are children of the Covenant, heirs to the promises, and have received, if baptized, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which makes manifest the things of God. Could all that go for naught?

(Orson F. Whitney, CR, Apr. 1929, 110)

We emphasize that the greatest work you will do will be within the walls of your home (see Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, April 1973, p.130), and that 'no other success can compensate for failure in the home' (see David O. Mckay, in Conference Report, April 1935, p.116). The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgement would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible. It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons and daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should. It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled... We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them.

(Boyd K. Packer, CR, Apr. 1992, 94-95)

God is not trying to damn the world, but to save it. All will be saved except "the sons of perdition," those who have had every opportunity to be saved-yes, saved and exalted. They who have known God, and have "tasted of the powers of the world to come," and then have thrown it all away, trampling upon the Truth as a thing of naught, denying the Holy Ghost, and "crucifying the Lord afresh";-these cannot be saved, for salvation is predicated upon repentance, and such have sinned away the power to repent. This is what makes their case hopeless. But comparatively few go that far. All the rest will be saved, and eventually glorified.

(Elder Orson F. Whitney, Strength of the "Mormon" Position)

Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, “Listen to this!" ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ ”

“There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.”

(Boyd K. Packer, CR, Ensign, Nov. 1995, 20–21)

What is it to be damned? Does it mean that all who come under that sentence shall be cast into hell, there to dwell forever and forever? The light of the century, given by the Lord, declares the falsity of that construction. . . . And except for those few, who have betrayed their trust and who have forfeited the very ability to repent—and they are few—every soul that has ever been tabernacled in flesh upon the earth shall be redeemed and shall be saved in his degree of worthiness and desert. . . . During this hundred years many other great truths not known before, have been declared to the people, and one of the greatest is that to hell there is an exit as well as an entrance. . . . No man will be kept in hell longer than is necessary to bring him to a fitness for something better. . . . The Lord has not abated in the least what he has said in earlier dispensations concerning the operation of his law and his gospel, but he has made clear unto us his goodness and mercy through it all, for it is his glory and his work to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man."

(Elder James E. Talmage, CR, Apr. 1930, pp. 95-97)

Good stuff, MDalby. But there's something you left out that causes one to pause -- and this is it:

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation." (D&C 138)

Verse 59 (in bold) seems to indicate that this classification of people are the ones who have first been thrust into hell as described in D&C 76:

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God (i.e. paid the penalty for their sins, as described in D&C 138:59 above) until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 76)

So, as we are told in D&C 76 that the most wicked and rebellious of mankind are thrust into hell to suffer for their own sins (not to atone for their own sins) until their hearts are softened and they are humbled enough to exercise faith in Christ unto genuine repentance. So what do you think of D&C 138:59, and how does it fit into your understanding of eventual salvation for the wicked and rebellious as described in D&C 76:106?

Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware