Brooks Blames Church For Elizabeth Smarts Captivity

[ERayR]

I don't see a warning, but a condemnation (not debating here, just wondering). What wording do you take to be a warning?

I can see an inferred warning...those who have done these things are looking to end up destroyed as the Nephites were...but it seems that Mormon is particularly focused on standing as a witness for the evils committed by his people:

To me it is a condemnation with an implicit warning that those actions bring condemnation but yes more condemnation than warning.

[wenglund]

I refuse to accept the suggestion that our young women, for the most part, are so devoid of common sense and a proper sense of proportion and perspective as to be psychologically harmed by an innocent and well-intended cupcake analogy. I see only a smattering of evidence for it, which suggest they may be the exceptions rather than the rule. To me, it is demeaning and patronizing to generally view young women that way. In fact, I believe that viewing them so hyper-sensitively puts them at greater risk of having psychological problems than any cupcake analogy ever will. But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 7, 2013 by wenglund

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes I know that viritue and virginty can mean different things. He likely said virtue but in the context it is the same.

I can't conceive of any rational context where losing virginity would be equated with losing virtue. Married people who have remained chaste prior to their marriage lose their virginity without losing their virtue. Happens all the time.

And attributing such a misstatement to an intelligent man like Elder Bednar makes it all the more absurd.

And usually when a LDS leader is talking about losing your virture they mean losing your virginity.

Nonsense. Every LDS leader I know understands, for instance, that a girl can be raped yet still have her virtue intact.

He quoted the Romeny story of his father telling him on his way to his mission he would rather see him come home in a coffin than come having lost his virtue.

Instead of railing against its alleged heinousness, why don't you just take the intended message: that committing sexual sin is very, very grievous, something to be avoided, and can bring heartache to righteous parents?

Edited May 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

Did you ever read the Miracle of Forgiveness?

I have, and one of my daughters has. Somehow we didn't read into it that President Kimball would rather his daughter was dead than raped - even with our 2013 sensibilities.

Perhaps the lesson that integrity and virtue are more precious than mortal life itself is lost on someone who is determined to think the worst of an LDS prophet and is willing to badly misread them in order to prove their point.

[Scott Lloyd]

Did you ever read the Miracle of Forgiveness?

Yes. And Miracle of Forgiveness does not say a girl or woman becomes unchaste merely by being raped.

[juliann]

Virtue and chastity are so intertwined in the way they are presented I see little distinction. In fact, wherever I see or hear virtue, chastity is going to be right there with it. The problem with what girls are given is that it is all so much "just be" rhetoric. It is passive. Virtue is automatically associated with stillness. Not sure how to express it, but I always think of a quiet and still queen or something. Our girls need more of a DO IT message rather than all of this just have sweet thoughts and attract a boy while boys are being told they are acting in the name of God.

I'm really beginning to think that whenever we have to back down from destructive teachings it leaves a vacuum and other stuff begins to fill it instead of outright change. So if we have to back down from the chastity scaremongering, virtue and modesty move in because the end result must be the same....girls only goal is to marry and have children which requires attracting a man. Education leading to solid career is never an end goal, only marriage. Thus, many women are left in low paying jobs as more and more have to join the work force. Our women are not being prepared for the realities in a rapidly changing world.

[ERayR]

Did you ever read the Miracle of Forgiveness?

Only part way. I couldn't get clear through it.

[ERayR]

Virtue and chastity are so intertwined in the way they are presented I see little distinction. In fact, wherever I see or hear virtue, chastity is going to be right there with it. The problem with what girls are given is that it is all so much "just be" rhetoric. It is passive. Virtue is automatically associated with stillness. Not sure how to express it, but I always think of a quiet and still queen or something. Our girls need more of a DO IT message rather than all of this just have sweet thoughts and attract a boy while boys are being told they are acting in the name of God.

I'm really beginning to think that whenever we have to back down from destructive teachings it leaves a vacuum and other stuff begins to fill it instead of outright change. So if we have to back down from the chastity scaremongering, virtue and modesty move in because the end result must be the same....girls only goal is to marry and have children which requires attracting a man. Education leading to solid career is never an end goal, only marriage. Thus, many women are left in low paying jobs as more and more have to join the work force. Our women are not being prepared for the realities in a rapidly changing world.

Much as I hate to do it I must agree in part with QuestingBeast. Chastity, virtue and virginity are not synonymous.

Edited May 7, 2013 by ERayR

[wenglund]

And that meaning of the words "chastity" and "virtue" is wrong. "What goes into a man/woman defiles not, but what comes out of a man/woman, that defiles." Words to that effect, meaning that what is forced upon someone who is innocent does not defile them or violate their spirituality, and hopefully not their inner peace if they believe that their inner person cannot be defiled or violated by the evil acts of another. We are infinitely more than the "envelope" of our changing, mortal, physical bodies....

There are multiple connotations of words even within the scriptures, and taking one connotation or usage in one passage, does not make "wrong" other connotations and usages in other passages. If you doubt this, do a scriptural search of the word "defile" and you will see that there are some instances where "defiling" occurs from within or in what one does to oneself, but other instances it occurs from without, where people or things can defile other people or things.

I can't imagine anyone not considering rape to be a defilement and/or violation of the rape victim, but evidently you do. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Teancum]

Scott

I see you are unable to comprehend the written word which is scary given your profession. Show me how I took Bednar's talk out of context. How did I misrepresent his use of the Romney story and Romney's father's comments?

[Scott Lloyd]

Much as I hate to do it I must agree in part with QuestingBeast. Chastity and virginity are not synonymous.

I agree.

But juliann was talking here about chastity and virtue, not chastity and virginity.

[cinepro]

Come on folks, let's ratchet back a bit on the hysteria.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

For at least two thousand years of European history until the late nineteenth century hysteria referred to a medical condition thought to be particular to women and caused by disturbances of the uterus (from the Greek ὑστέρa "hystera" = uterus), such as when a neonate emerges from the female birth canal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria#History

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott

I see you are unable to comprehend the written word which is scary given your profession. Show me how I took Bednar's talk out of context. How did I misrepresent his use of the Romney story and Romney's father's comments?

Actually I called you on your confusion of the terms virtue and virginity. I said they were not the same thing. You came back with the rather strange assertion that LDS leaders use them synonymously. I still maintain that LDS leaders are smart enough to understand the difference.

As for the Romney story, I think you are overreacting to the rhetoric and in so doing, ignoring the import of the message, which is that moral purity is something to be treasured and safeguarded, and that sexual sin can bring heartbreak to righteous parents. This is especially so if the errant child is unrepentant. As a father who wishes the best for his children, I can relate to the sentiment of having greater grief over a son or daughter being embroiled in sexual immorality than if the same son or daughter had died but had retained his or her virtue.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Questing Beast]

There are multiple connotations of words even within the scriptures, and taking one connotation or usage in one passage, does not make "wrong" other connotations and usages in other passages. If you doubt this, do a scriptural search of the word "defile" and you will see that there are some instances where "defiling" occurs from within or in what one does to oneself, but other instances it occurs from without, where people or things can defile other people or things.

I can't imagine anyone not considering rape to be a defilement and/or violation of the rape victim, but evidently you do. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If you consider what was forced on Elizabeth Smart to be a defilement then you clearly have a less charitable view of her ordeal than her husband does. How could any man settle for "damaged goods" when he could find a virgin or at least a chaste woman who had never been raped? It is a disgusting attitude to hold. No woman who has been raped should have to endure such a distinction. She was violated, but not defiled. The two words are not remotely synonymous as you seem to imply here....

[Stone holm]

Unfortunately, the clear language in Moroni is probably correct for that culture given the loss of virginity or even the "use" of a woman by another man may well have devalued her in the eyes of the culture. Using the language in a Conference or other talk could very clearly convey the wrong message since it very clearly suggests that virtue can be taken, whereas we believe it can only be given up. We do not have to go back in time to find this misguided notion, radically conservative Muslim in some areas still have this notion. Anyone teaching or speaking in the Church would be well advised to avoid quoting it because many find its literal meaning highly offensive.

[juliann]

I don't know if someone put up this link, but it is very important to hear it from Elizabeth in context....it is not long.

http://fox13now.com/2013/05/06/video-elizabeth-smart-speaks-at-johns-hopkins-university/

[Bernard Gui]

Hmm, do you remember the Kennedy assassination? Or watching the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show?

Do you remember when Pope Pius almost died from hiccups?

[Calm]

I refuse to accept the suggestion that our young women, for the most part, are so devoid of common sense and a proper sense of proportion and perspective as to be psychologically harmed by an innocent and well-intended cupcake analogy. I see only a smattering of evidence for it, which suggest they may be the exceptions rather than the rule. To me, it is demeaning and patronizing to generally view young women that way. In fact, I believe that viewing them so hyper-sensitively puts them at greater risk of having psychological problems than any cupcake analogy ever will. But, that may just be me.

Maybe when older, but anything goes often for 13 and 14 year old girls.

Teens are not known for common sense and having a sense of proportion and perspective...

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nevo]

I don't know if someone put up this link, but it is very important to hear it from Elizabeth in context....it is not long.

http://fox13now.com/...ins-university/

Thanks for putting that up Juliann. You're right. She's extraordinary.

[Deborah]

Unfortunately, the clear language in Moroni is probably correct for that culture given the loss of virginity or even the "use" of a woman by another man may well have devalued her in the eyes of the culture.

I agree. But I don't think the implication in referring to this is that the victims are condemned, but the application is pointing out that something precious has been taken. The point, I suppose is to show the value of virtue and what a tragedy it is when it is forcibly taken and if that is the case then why would you voluntarily give it up.

[Danzo]

Virtue and chastity are so intertwined in the way they are presented I see little distinction. In fact, wherever I see or hear virtue, chastity is going to be right there with it. The problem with what girls are given is that it is all so much "just be" rhetoric. It is passive. Virtue is automatically associated with stillness. Not sure how to express it, but I always think of a quiet and still queen or something. Our girls need more of a DO IT message rather than all of this just have sweet thoughts and attract a boy while boys are being told they are acting in the name of God.

I'm really beginning to think that whenever we have to back down from destructive teachings it leaves a vacuum and other stuff begins to fill it instead of outright change. So if we have to back down from the chastity scaremongering, virtue and modesty move in because the end result must be the same....girls only goal is to marry and have children which requires attracting a man. Education leading to solid career is never an end goal, only marriage. Thus, many women are left in low paying jobs as more and more have to join the work force. Our women are not being prepared for the realities in a rapidly changing world.

You really must go to a different church than me. The church I go to encourages women to get an education, before and after marriage. It also tells the men not to postpone marriage to get an education. My post high school formal education as well as my wife has largely occurred after our marriage. Just because the church encourages marriage for men and women doesn't mean they cant be educated.

Education is not incompatible with Marriage.

[Sosthenes]

The word "abstinence" means "forbearance from any indulgence of appetite" and "voluntary forbearance especially from indulgence of an appetite or craving". It comes from the word "abstain" which means "to refrain deliberately and often with an effort of self-denial from an action or practice".

Abstinence is taught in the scriptures. Paul says, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication". Peter says: "Abstain from fleshy lusts that war against the soul". Abstinence can be associated with lusts other than sexual. The most common instances of the word "abstain" in modern scriptures is associated with eating certain foods.

Sexual Abstinence is the subject here. It is connected to Chastity which has a definition of "abstention from unlawful sexual intercourse". The LDS website defines Chastity as "sexual purity" and it defines purity as "Free from sin or guilt; blameless". To become free from sin or guilt and to become blameless is the purpose of the atonement and our acceptance of the atonement through baptism and the sacrament.

The Book of Mormon and the prophets of the restoration teach that Chastity is important:

* "For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts." (Jacob 2:28)

* I am a lover of the cause of Christ and of virtue, chastity, and an upright, steady course of conduct and a holy walk. I despise a hypocrite or a covenant breaker. (Joseph Smith).

* “Oh, if our young people could learn this basic lesson—to always keep good company, to never be found with those who tend to lower their standards! We must repeat what we have said many times: Fornication with all its accompanying sins, great and small, was evil and wholly condemned by the Lord in Adam’s day, in Moses’ day, in Paul’s day, and in 1976. The Church has no tolerance for any kind of perversions.” (Spencer W. Kimball)

* Marriage between a man and a woman is the authorized channel through which premortal spirits enter mortality. Complete sexual abstinence before marriage and total fidelity within marriage protect the sanctity of this sacred channel. (David A Bednar)

* Constantly before us is the maka-feke of immorality. Almost everywhere we turn, there are those who would have us believe that what was once considered immoral is now acceptable. I think of the scripture, “Wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness.” 1 Such is the maka-feke of immorality. We are reminded in the Book of Mormon that chastity and virtue are precious above all things. (Thomas Monson)

While the Church has taught that sexual sin is a very grave offense, rape is not a case of sexual immorality on the part of the victim. In the 2001 pamphlet "For the Strength of Youth" it says "sexual sins are more serious than any other sins except murder or denying the Holy Ghost" and immediately adds that "Victims of rape, incest, or other sexual abuse are not guilty of sin. If you have been a victim of any of these crimes, know that you are innocent and that God loves you.".

Members of the Church are called to teach the principles of the gospel to each other. The members of the Church are sometimes prone to errors, particularly if they take their lessons from other religions and instruction. Brent Barlow, who is not a member of the first presidency or the 12 has written a book called "Worth Waiting for" Sexual Abstinence Before Marriage". In that book he describes the possible effect of these errors in a chapter entitled "It Matters How We Teach Sexual Abstinence". He makes the point that improper instruction can create feelings of guilt and irretrievable sinfulness. He includes lessons that involve a crushed rose, a nail in a board leaving a hole and a quote about it being better to die than to violate the law of chastity. Then he describes a phenomenon about how the world views sex and how we are susceptible to it. He says, "the message that "sex is evil and dirty" is not conveyed only by insensitive teachers. It is communicated almost daily by the media. You don't believe it? Do an experiment. For just two or three days review the local newspaper or watch the nightly newscasts, national or local. Make careful notes of any incident regarding sexuality and write down how it happened. Was it incest? Child molestation? Rape? Murder and/or violence? Homosexuality? Child sexual exploitation by a youth or church leader? Listen to the jokes told by comedians. Watch the TV talk shows. When you have finished your experiment, see if what you have seen and heard has left you with any good feelings about sex."

Some relevant links on the web are:

Dictionary definitions

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chastity

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstinence?s=t

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abstain

New Testament passages on abstain

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=abstain%2A+G567&t=KJV

Chastity, purity and blamelessness as seen by the LDS Church

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/blameless?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/topics/chastity?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-strength-of-youth/sexual-purity?lang=eng

Teachings of some of the prophets

Voices of the Past of the present of the future - Spencer Kimball

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1971/04/voices-of-the-past-of-the-present-of-the-future?lang=eng

Personal Purity - Jeffrey Holland

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/10/personal-purity?lang=eng

Purity precedes power by M Russell Ballard

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/10/purity-precedes-power?lang=eng

We believe in being chaste by David Bednar

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/we-believe-in-being-chaste?lang=eng

[Saints Alive]

If you consider what was forced on Elizabeth Smart to be a defilement then you clearly have a less charitable view of her ordeal than her husband does.

So you don't think she was defiled? I would say rape is the epitome of defilement. It clearly wasn't her fault, and I think her husband understands that.

[tyler90az]

Let this be a lesson to all parents.

[rodheadlee]

I don't know if it's the teaching and upbringing of a person that creates their will or they are just who they are from the beginning, I assure you my 16 year old virgin girl friend would have made a bloody stump of the perp. I don't have any daughters to compare this to so I have to go back to when my wife was young. Her u bringing was Catholic and by a dying Mom who passed away when she was 12, after that it was various relatives and neighbors. So is she a product of her upbringing, her environment or is she just who she is? I think she is who she is in spite of her upbringing.