Brooks Blames Church For Elizabeth Smarts Captivity

[ERayR]

There are also countless numbers of Saints who in failing to live the law of chasity, the word of wisdom, honesty or other gospel principles have learned about repentance and the atonement of Christ. They have undoubteldy learned that chastity is not a cupcake, a board or the physical state of one's reproductive system. Anyone who teaches otherwise misses the greater point of obedience to Christ's laws and the efficacy of His sacrifice.

However it should be taught that the willing abandonment of these ideals is indeed a grave sin. Not insurmountable but nevertheless a grave sin.

[Scott Lloyd]

...Yes. This ^.

My first thought when presented with the argument that Moroni 9:9 was teaching rape = loss of virtue was "you are reading it wrong".

The things some people get from their inner voice really makes me worry about them - and this applies to zealous adherants as much as zealous critics.

Apropos of "zealous adherents," I don't recall the last time I encountered a faithful member of the Church who believed that being a victim of rape makes a woman or girl unchaste. In fact, I don't know that I have ever encountered someone like that.

[Scott Lloyd]

However it should be taught that the willing abandonment of these ideals is indeed a grave sin. Not insurmountable but nevertheless a grave sin.

Yes, there can be errors made on either extreme: excessive leniency and permissiveness vs. unrighteous condemnation.

[KevinG]

Apropos of "zealous adherents," I don't recall the last time I encountered a faithful member of the Church who believed that being a victim of rape makes a woman or girl unchaste. In fact, I don't know that I have ever encountered someone like that.

Very good point. I find myself being shocked by the bahavior of the oft cited Brother and Sister Anonymous once again.

[ERayR]

Apropos of "zealous adherents," I don't recall the last time I encountered a faithful member of the Church who believed that being a victim of rape makes a woman or girl unchaste. In fact, I don't know that I have ever encountered someone like that.

Nor I and I am some older than you.

[KevinG]

...which brings me right back to being chagrined at Sister Brooks self appointed insider expert status; speaking for tens of millions of church members as though they are of one mind and culture. And speaking of their mind in as unflattering a way as possible on top of that.

...with friends like these...

[Scott Lloyd]

Nor I and I am some older than you.

Hmm, do you remember the Kennedy assassination? Or watching the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show?

[Calm]

Those verses are not addressing rape but as a warning against the mistreatment of the daughters of the Lamanites and others who are in our power to abuse.

I don't see a warning, but a condemnation (not debating here, just wondering). What wording do you take to be a warning?

I can see an inferred warning...those who have done these things are looking to end up destroyed as the Nephites were...but it seems that Mormon is particularly focused on standing as a witness for the evils committed by his people:

18 O the depravity of my people! They are without order and without mercy. Behold, I am but a man, and I have but thestrength of a man, and I cannot any longer enforce my commands.

19 And they have become strong in their perversion; and they are alike brutal, sparing none, neither old nor young; and they delight in everything save that which is good; and the suffering of our women and our children upon all the face of this land doth exceed everything; yea, tongue cannot tell, neither can it be written.

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Apropos of "zealous adherents," I don't recall the last time I encountered a faithful member of the Church who believed that being a victim of rape makes a woman or girl unchaste. In fact, I don't know that I have ever encountered someone like that.

I have known victims of abuse who believed that and have also know those who believed that once they have committed a minor unchaste act there is no going back, their purity is forever lost so they've just stopped trying and have gone on to commit fornication and adultery....perhaps that is why I feel it is important to be so careful. I don't think it is the Church's teachings and certainly not this scripture that leads to such belief, but once that belief has been instilled from whatever source it can be strengthened by careless comments and interpretations. It seems to me wisdom to remove as much as possible anything that might be prone to misinterpretation simply as a kindness.

If including such a scripture was a choice of inspiration and not based on simply the desire and need to find a scripture valuing chastity and virtue, then I would not suggest it be removed. But if it was chosen by reason and not revelation/inspiration, then I have no problem suggesting that it be changed. I would suspect due to the intent that has been expressed in the True to the Faith manual, that once this possible interpretation is drawn to the direct attention of those who oversee the manuals...whenever that may be...that it will be discussed if this was a matter of inspiration or reason and it will be changed or remain the same based on thoughtfulness, concern and an effort to receive inspiration (though I can see this as a case where the Lord has given us a brain to use and will let those who create the manuals and who teach them decide for themselves).

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[birdgirl]

I was taught the chewed gum, licked cupcake (eww!) and broken precious ceramic figurine lessons (you can glue it- repent- but it will never be the same because you can see the cracks) in seminary and young womens. My teachers quoted The Miracle of Forgiveness:

"Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."

I guess it isn't doctrine but it still goes around- maybe more in the super old-school Utah towns.

I never had a school teacher discuss virginity or rape in class.

Edited May 7, 2013 by birdgirl

[wenglund]

There are also countless numbers of Saints who in failing to live the law of chasity, the word of wisdom, honesty or other gospel principles have learned about repentance and the atonement of Christ. They have undoubteldy learned that chastity is not a cupcake, a board or the physical state of one's reproductive system. Anyone who teaches otherwise misses the greater point of obedience to Christ's laws and the efficacy of His sacrifice.

Of course chastity is not literally cupcakes any more than people are literally wheat already to harvest. In both cases we are talking about analogies intended to convey a meaningful principle, with the understanding that the analogies have limited application. If people interpret D&C 11:4 and other passages as a call to literally wield a sickle or other farm implements against other people, then the problem isn't with the analogy, but with the people doing the interpreting. The same goes for the BoM passage in question and innocent nail and candy and cupcake analogies. They are intended to discourage indiscretions, and not discourage repenting of indiscretions.

Come on folks, let's ratchet back a bit on the hysteria.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Scott Lloyd]

Of course chastity is not literally cupcakes any more than people are literally wheat already to harvest. In both cases we are talking about analogies intended to convey a meaningful principle, with the understanding that the analogies have limited application. If people interpret D&C 11:4 and other passages as a call to literally wield a sickle or other farm implements against other people, then the problem isn't with the analogy, but with the people doing the interpreting. The same goes for the BoM passage in question and innocent nail and candy and cupcake analogies. They are intended to discourage indiscretions, and not discourage repenting of indiscretions.

Come on folks, let's ratchet back a bit on the hysteria.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's true that analogies are intended to have only limited application and should be received with that in mind.

That said, not all analogies are created equal. Some are very apt, some only moderately useful to convey a point and some so prone to being misunderstood that they deserve to be jettisoned.

[juliann]

I'm rather shocked that anyone can look at that scripture and not take it at its word. It clearly says their virtue and chastity was the most precious thing they had. And it was gone. Taken means....gone. I mean come on, is it really that important to defend a few words? Only those who have grown up and become hardened to the use of that verse as a means of keeping girls in line is going to see it saying anything differently.

The point is that the Brooks of the world shouldn't have to be pointing this out! We should be doing it and there should be nonstop memos going out to bishops to fix this awful stuff.

And the men who are insistent they are not hearing this stuff? Well, that is because it is used on the girls! And as for a school or a church teacher doing it....Smart was in Provo so it would still be a Mormon issue. According to what I read, she also said she got it at home which I thought was an even bigger ouch. I can't even begin to express how impressed I am with this young woman. This needs to stop and the modesty obsession that is laid at the feet of our girls is a part of it.

[Calm]

I can't even begin to express how impressed I am with this young woman.

Amen.

[Teancum]

Indeed!

The "nail in the board," the "chewed piece of gum," the "candy-bar-out-of-the-wrapper-passed-around-the-classroom" object lessons were taught, but have since been repudiated.

I do recall Elder Holland repudiating the nail and hole analogy. He says after you repent there is no hole because you are a brand new board. God bless Elder Holland. I do not recall the chewed gum, the licked cupcake, the candy bar wrapper or many others being repudiated. Nor do I recall the comments that a parent would rather see their child dead and in a coffin then to lose their virginity, and in fact David Bednar repeated that heinous idea in a BYUI talk shortly before being called to be an apostle.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nor do I recall the comments that a parent would rather see their child dead and in a coffin then to lose their virginity, and in fact David Bednar repeated that heinous idea in a BYUI talk shortly before being called to be an apostle.

Did he say "lose their virginity," or did he say "lose their virtue"? There's quite a difference, you know.

And I would have to see the text of the talk before commenting on its alleged heinousness. If you've garbled the above quote, as I suspect you have, it hardly seems unlikey to me that you've rather badly misrepresented the message itself.

[Teancum]

I'm rather shocked that anyone can look at that scripture and not take it at its word. It clearly says their virtue and chastity was the most precious thing they had. And it was gone. Taken means....gone. I mean come on, is it really that important to defend a few words? Only those who have grown up and become hardened to the use of that verse as a means of keeping girls in line is going to see it saying anything differently.

The point is that the Brooks of the world shouldn't have to be pointing this out! We should be doing it and there should be nonstop memos going out to bishops to fix this awful stuff.

And the men who are insistent they are not hearing this stuff? Well, that is because it is used on the girls! And as for a school or a church teacher doing it....Smart was in Provo so it would still be a Mormon issue. According to what I read, she also said she got it at home which I thought was an even bigger ouch. I can't even begin to express how impressed I am with this young woman. This needs to stop and the modesty obsession that is laid at the feet of our girls is a part of it.

Oh well said! Very well said. By the way when I was a kid I had the some of the same lessons in my YM class. But yes it is laid much more heavy on the girls and in needs to STOP! NOW!

[ERayR]

Hmm, do you remember the Kennedy assassination? Or watching the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show?

Yep I was headed home from Logan Utah when I heard the Kennedy Assassination news. I saw the Beatles first US appearance on the Ed Sullivan show. Wasn't really impressed then and haven't been since.

[Scott Lloyd]

Oh well said! Very well said. By the way when I was a kid I had the some of the same lessons in my YM class. But yes it is laid much more heavy on the girls and in needs to STOP! NOW!

I, on the other hand, have never been taught during a lifetime in the Church that being raped is tantamount to losing one's chastity or virtue. The very idea seems so stupid I think I would have challenged it on the spot.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Questing Beast]

Is your real name Gene Simmons?

What an annoying thing to ask.

I said, "Chastity and virtue have nothing to do with being a virgin. I am a chaste, virtuous person and I have had sex thousands of times. It was all voluntary on both our parts."

Married people are not virgins....

[Scott Lloyd]

Yep I was headed home from Logan Utah when I heard the Kennedy Assassination news. I saw the Beatles first US appearance on the Ed Sullivan show. Wasn't really impressed then and haven't been since.

Yes, you are a bit older than I. I was 9 when Kennedy was assassinated and 10 when the Beatles hit our shores. That coincided with my receiving for Christmas that year my first transistor radio.

[Scott Lloyd]

What an annoying thing to ask.

I said, "Chastity and virtue have nothing to do with being a virgin. I am a chaste, virtuous person and I have had sex thousands of times. It was all voluntary on both our parts."

Married people are not virgins....

I think he was reacting to the "thousands of times." Wondering when that leaves you free for gainful employment. Or meals. Or sleep.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91hwilt.phtml

Edited May 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Questing Beast]

Also, if the words "virtue" and "chastity" are used to mean "not defiled" or "not violated", then rape can logically be viewed as depriving (illegally take from) a person of their virtue and chastity.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And that meaning of the words "chastity" and "virtue" is wrong. "What goes into a man/woman defiles not, but what comes out of a man/woman, that defiles." Words to that effect, meaning that what is forced upon someone who is innocent does not defile them or violate their spirituality, and hopefully not their inner peace if they believe that their inner person cannot be defiled or violated by the evil acts of another. We are infinitely more than the "envelope" of our changing, mortal, physical bodies....

[Teancum]

Did he say "lose their virginity," or did he say "lose their virtue"? There's quite a difference, you know.

And I would have to see the text of the talk before commenting on its alleged heinousness. If you've garbled the above quote, as I suspect you have, it hardly seems unlikey to me that you've rather badly misrepresented the message itself.

Yes I know that viritue and virginty can mean different things. He likely said virtue but in the context it is the same. And usually when a LDS leader is talking about losing your virture they mean losing your virginity. He quoted the Romeny story of his father telling him on his way to his mission he would rather see him come home in a coffin than come having lost his virtue.

Here is a link to the talk:

http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/Bednar,%20David%20A/BednarDA_MoralPurity.html

Here is the section I mentioned. And please show me how I misrepresented it and garbled it.

Question 2: What are the blessings associated with moral purity?

Prophets and apostles have spoken definitively about the blessings associated with moral purity. President Ezra Taft Benson has taught:

Do not be misled by Satan's lies. There is no lasting happiness in immorality. There is no joy to be found in breaking the law of chastity. Just the opposite is true. There may be momentary pleasure. For a time it may seem like everything is wonderful. But quickly the relationship will sour. Guilt and shame set in. We become fearful that our sins will be discovered. We must sneak and hide, lie and cheat. Love begins to die. Bitterness, jealousy, anger, and even hate begin to grow. All of these are the natural results of sin and transgression.

On the other hand, when we obey the law of chastity and keep ourselves morally clean, we will experience the blessings of increased love and peace, greater trust and respect for our marital partners, deeper commitment to each other, and, therefore, a deep and significant sense of joy and happiness. (President Ezra Taft Benson, "The Law of Chastity,"

BYU 1987-88 Devotional and Fireside Speeches

[1988], p. 51.)

Please notice the specific blessings promised by President Benson: love and peace, trust and respect for our marital partners, commitment to each other, and true joy and happiness. Certainly, moral purity and worthiness are the gateway to appropriate feelings of spiritual worth, confidence, and lasting joy.

Important and timeless counsel about moral purity was given by a father to his son right here in Rexburg, Idaho. From 1917 until 1931, George S. Romney served as the president of Ricks Academy. His son Marion, a student at the academy, excelled in athletics. Later in his life Marion G. Romney served as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and as a counselor in the First Presidency of the Church. In a 1979 general conference address, President Marion G. Romney recalled this important lesson about the law of chastity he learned from his father as he departed Rexburg to serve as a missionary in Australia. Please note President Romney's teachings about the law of chastity and his description of the supernal blessings associated with that law:

And now, the third specific commandment to which I direct your attention is, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (D&C 42:24).

You will recall, of course, Alma's teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, save murder only (see Alma 39:3-5). You will remember, too, these words from Paul's epistle to the Corinthians:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy" (1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

. . . I remember how my father impressed

the seriousness of unchastity

upon my mind. He and I were standing in the railroad station in Rexburg, Idaho, in the early morning of November 12, 1920. We heard the train whistle and knew that in three minutes I would be on my way to Australia to fill a mission. In that short interval my father said to me, among other things, "My son, you are going a long way from home. But your mother and I, your brother and sisters, will be with you constantly in our thoughts and prayers, we shall rejoice with you in your successes, and we shall sorrow with you in your disappointments. When you are released and return, we shall be glad to greet you and welcome you back into the family circle.

But remember this, my son, we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue."

I pondered that statement at the time. I did not then have the full understanding of it that my father had, but I have never forgotten it.

I can think of no blessings to be more fervently desired than those promised to the pure and the virtuous. Jesus spoke of specific rewards for different virtues but reserved the greatest, so it seems to me, for the pure in heart, "for they," said he, "shall see God" (Matthew 5:

. And not only shall they see the Lord, but they shall feel at home in his presence.

Here is his promise--the Savior's promise: "Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God" (D&C 121:45). (Marion G. Romney, "Trust in the Lord,"

Ensign

, May 1979, p. 40.)

Elder M. Russell Ballard also has described the blessings related to moral purity. Note the similarity between the blessings promised by Elder Ballard and those just described by President Romney:

Recently I talked with several groups of young men and women in Utah and Idaho. They told me that some of our youth feel that they can be immoral during their teen years and then repent when they decide to go on a mission or be married in the temple. Some young men talk about a mission as a time when they will be forgiven from their past sins. They have the notion that a few transgressions now are no big deal because they can repent quickly, go on a mission, and then live happily ever after.

Young men, please believe me when I tell you that this scenario is a gross deception by Satan; it is a fairy tale. Sin will always,

always,

result in suffering. It may come sooner, or it may come later, but it will come. The scriptures state that you will "stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God" (Jacob 6:9) and that you will experience "a lively sense of . . . guilt, and pain, and anguish" (Mosiah 2:38).

A related misconception is that repentance is easy. President Kimball said that "one has not begun to repent until he has suffered intensely for his sins. . . . If a person hasn't suffered, he hasn't repented" (

The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball

, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, pp. 88, 99). You need only talk to a person who has truly repented of serious sin to understand that the momentary pleasure of an immoral act is simply not worth the pain that always follows.

The youth told me that some are tempted to be immoral because they want to be accepted by their peers. For the young men, it may mean acceptance based on some sort of macho image. For the young women, it may be the need to feel they are accepted by having a boyfriend.

Acceptance by your peers must not come at the expense of your virtue and self-esteem. King Benjamin indicates that those guilty of sin will "shrink from the presence of the Lord

" (Mosiah 2:38). In a very real way, those who have been immoral shrink from the presence of others: their friends, their parents, other members of their family, and Church leaders.

Now, let us consider the grand blessings the Lord has promised those who are obedient to the commandment to be morally clean. You never need to repent of a sin you have not committed. That seems obvious, but I want to emphasize it. Repentance is a great blessing, but you should never make yourself sick just so you can try out the remedy. You are infinitely better to maintain your spiritual health by staying morally clean. If you feel confident in the presence of your parents, peers, and priesthood leaders, you can sense how you will feel when you have the confidence and acceptance of the Savior. (M. Russell Ballard, "Purity Precedes Power,"

Ensign

, November 1990, p. 35.)

As indicated by President Benson, President Romney, and Elder Ballard, moral purity invites the greatest blessings men and women can experience in mortality--appropriate spiritual confidence in the presence of family, friends, church associates, and, ultimately, the Savior. As we better understand the importance of and blessings associated with moral purity, each of us will have a greater resolve to live clean lives and to let virtue garnish our thoughts unceasingly (D&C 121:45).

[Teancum]

I, on the other hand, have never been taught during a lifetime in the Church that being raped is tantamount to losing one's chastity or virtue. The very idea seems so stupid I think I would have challenged it on the spot.

Did you ever read the Miracle of Forgiveness?