Brooks Blames Church For Elizabeth Smarts Captivity

[Saints Alive]

Read here: http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/7101/traditional_mormon_sexual_purity_lesson_contributed_to_captivity__elizabeth_smart_tells_university_audience/

Basically she is saying if the church Didnt hold chastity as important Elizabeth Smart would have ran away from her captors. Give me a break!

[Benjamin McGuire]

You seem to have missed the point entirely.

In the Young Women's Personal Progress material ( https://www.lds.org/young-women/personal-progress/virtue?lang=eng ) we find this statement:

Study the meaning and importance of chastity and virtue by reading Moroni 9:9

What is Moroni 9:9?

And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

So we want our young women to understand that this thing which is most dear and precious above all things - this chastity and virtue - is something that a man can simply take from them against their will, right? That their value as chaste and virtuous daughters of God is at least in part dependent on their ability to avoid being raped? Do we really think that women have lost "that which is most precious and dear above all things" when they are taken advantage of (as Elizabeth Smart was)?

Perhaps you should reconsider your attitude.

Ben M.

[Jude2]

Geessssssssss what a twist of truth

[Saints Alive]

Ben,

Um no, that verse just states that chastity is very important. It doesn't say anything about being worthless if it is taken from you. If anything it speaks to how bad it is to take it from someone.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Saints Alive

[canard78]

First the blacks and the priesthood, now kidnappers.

Next week: MDDB holds Brooks responsible for the downfall of humanity.

Brooks may have misunderstood/misattributed some of Smart's comments. This quote is apparently referencing a lesson she had at a (Utah) school, not at church:

“I thought, ‘Oh, my gosh, I’m that chewed up piece of gum, nobody re-chews a piece of gum, you throw it away.’ And that’s how easy it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you no longer have value,” Smart said. “Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued? Your life still has no value.”

See here:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0504/Elizabeth-Smart-speaks-on-human-trafficking

and here:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/06/1967591/elizabeth-smart-abstinence-ed/?mobile=nc

(Both of the above links says she was taught this lesson at school. She was 14 at the time of kidnap so may have been taught a slightly clumsy 'sex education' class at school. FWIW, I was given a chastity lesson in my teens with the 'chewing gum' analogy at church. I hope they're becoming less common.

[thesometimesaint]

Here is what Elizabeth Smart says herself.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/06/1967591/elizabeth-smart-abstinence-ed/

[canard78]

Ben,

Um no, that verse just states that chastity is very important. It doesn't say anything about being worthless if it is taken from you. If anything it speaks to how bad it is to take it from someone.

Moroni 9:9 could potentially send the wrong message. A girl/woman is not unchaste nor unvirtuous if she has been raped.

many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue— (10) And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts

First, the verse has a strange perspective. The Lamanite daughters biggest problems is the fact that they've been tortured to death (and eaten). The emphasis is on the condemnation of the barbaric Nephites.

In personal progress the verse is used for the chapter on Virtue:

The power to create mortal life is an exalted power God has given His children. He has commanded that this power be used only between a man and a woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife. Study the meaning and importance of chastity and virtue by reading Moroni 9:9; Jacob 2:28; “The Family: A Proclamation to the World”; and the section on sexual purity in For the Strength of Youth.

https://www.lds.org/young-women/personal-progress/virtue?lang=eng

[canard78]

Here is what Elizabeth Smart says herself.

http://thinkprogress...-abstinence-ed/

Is the full original transcript available? The 'teacher' who gave the lesson is not specified as a school or sunday school teacher.

Over here (still not verbatim quote) it says: "Smart spoke at a Johns Hopkins human trafficking forum, saying she was raised in a religious household and recalled a school teacher who spoke once about abstinence and compared sex to chewing gum."

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0504/Elizabeth-Smart-speaks-on-human-trafficking

[Benjamin McGuire]

Saints -

So you believe that we should teach the value of chastity and virtue by using a passage in scripture talking about rape and abuse?

Clearly a better job of proof texting could have been done. Or we could continue right? What about the statement Spencer W. Kimball made: "It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." So Elizabeth Smart clearly didn't live up to that expectation, right? She should have died defending her virtue? And of course that goes for any girl who makes a mistake (to use some of the analogies - becoming chewed gum, or having the icing licked off the cupcake, becoming damaged good, and so on). This is anything but a hopeful message for those who made mistakes (on their own) but think of the message it sends to a young woman like Elizabeth Smart. Do we have anything like this in the Young Men's manual? Do we ever speak of a young man's discretion as making him damage goods, or having lost that which is most precious and valuable? Not usually. This isn't just a Mormon thing, it is in general a woman thing.

Criticizing Brooks for bringing this up isn't terribly appropriate in my opinion - because in fact it is another of these very real issues.

Ben M.

[USU78]

"School teacher," when employed by speakers of American English, means "school teacher," unless qualified by other words or contextual clues.

Why cannot her words be taken at face value?

[phaedrus ut]

Read here: http://www.religiond...rsity_audience/

Basically she is saying if the church Didnt hold chastity as important Elizabeth Smart would have ran away from her captors. Give me a break!

You're criticism would be wonderfully insightful except Elizabeth Smart said the same thing herself using the "chewed up piece of gum" object lesson that should be as familiar to women in the church as the licked cupcake or the plucked rose analogy. She explained how shame can trap victims.

Of course Elizabeth smart would have mo more knowledge of this issue than you would.

Phaedrus

[canard78]

"School teacher," when employed by speakers of American English, means "school teacher," unless qualified by other words or contextual clues.

Why cannot her words be taken at face value?

True - she doesn't directly indict the LDS church (she's still apparently an active member according to wikipedia).

But I've only seen it second hand that she said school teacher, not the original quote from her speech. Can anyone find a link to the transcript?

ETA: I've now found 3 different sources that say teacher/school teacher (including Deseret News). It's fairly clear that she's not singled out the church as the source of this attitude. Though it's fair to say that this type of attitude has been perpetuated in the past.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865579570/Elizabeth-Smart-Shame-traps-victims-of-abuse-trafficking.html

Edited May 7, 2013 by canard78

[USU78]

"Chewed gum" is the functional equivalent of the "nail hole in the board" lesson I received as a child (and, no, I'm not saying which decade).

The "repentence is removing the nail" and "nail hole is the hole in your soul" type metaphor has long since been repudiated, since the Master's Grace covers all: you repent, you're done, and G-d promises He won't even remember it happened.

Of course I remember, and I learn, and I try like crazy not to do it again.

What a shame some people, in or out of the Church (YW, primary, seminary, whatever) still push this false teaching.

Yes, it's "most precious."

Yes, it's a horrible crime to take it away by force.

Yes, IMNSHO, it should still have a death penalty attached to it [but that's a civil matter].

No, there is no shame or guilt in being victimized by the cowardly.

[thesometimesaint]

Is the full original transcript available? The 'teacher' who gave the lesson is not specified as a school or sunday school teacher.

Over here (still not verbatim quote) it says: "Smart spoke at a Johns Hopkins human trafficking forum, saying she was raised in a religious household and recalled a school teacher who spoke once about abstinence and compared sex to chewing gum."

http://www.csmonitor...man-trafficking

I don't know. Sorry.

To be fair from what I have read she doesn't blame the Church, but the general culture in and around Salt Lake City for its non-accepting attitudes. She is still an active member of the Church.

[Questing Beast]

Chastity and virtue have nothing to do with being a virgin. I am a chaste, virtuous person and I have had sex thousands of times. It was all voluntary on both our parts. I've never liked Moroni 9:9, it simply feels wrong. Kimball's extremist pov is even worse. A girl does not lose her virtue or chastity because of being forced. I hope that Elizabeth Smart is truly healed from her nine months of hell, none of it in the slightest degree her fault. Even if she was pregnant when found (rumor only) and the pregnancy aborted, still the reality is that Mitchell could not take chastity and virtue away from Elizabeth. Only Elizabeth could lose her chastity and virtue, and it sounds like she did not because she fought back and retained or regained her self respect. She continued to live a virtuous life....

[wenglund]

Most any edifying principle and object lesson can be taken out of context and divorced from its primary intent and misused as a means for self-loathing/deprecation and to beat the teachers over the head with.

However, doing so will simply turn something intentionally productive and beautiful into something destructive and ugly. Not smart or good.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 7, 2013 by wenglund

[Calm]

Ben,

Um no, that verse just states that chastity is very important. It doesn't say anything about being worthless if it is taken from you. If anything it speaks to how bad it is to take it from someone.

Does it or does it not state that virtue and chastity can be taken by rape/force?

after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[MorningStar]

I'm wondering what would be better wording there. A woman doesn't lose her chastity or virtue when someone rapes her, but a sacred part of her body is violated.

I never heard any of those analogies in Young Women's - chewed gum, wilted rose, etc. It comes across as the act making you now disgusting. Of course, a man wouldn't consider his wife to be a chewed up piece of gum after their wedding night for the rest of their marriage. People should just stay away from analogies like that and simply explain that we owe it to our future spouses to save ourselves for them.

[Duncan]

In the For Strength of Youth booklet it has a section about rape and assault and that if that has happened to you it doesn't mean that you are unchaste

[Scott Lloyd]

Does it or does it not state that virtue and chastity can be taken by rape/force?

I acknowledge that, in context, that is the more likely impression.

However, it is possible to read it another way. Perhaps the Lamanite daughters were seduced by their Nephite captors and were willing participants, in which case it would have been correct to say they were deprived of their chastity and virtue. Perhaps that's a long shot, but without having more facts, it cannot be ruled out.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

"Chewed gum" is the functional equivalent of the "nail hole in the board" lesson I received as a child (and, no, I'm not saying which decade).

The "repentence is removing the nail" and "nail hole is the hole in your soul" type metaphor has long since been repudiated, since the Master's Grace covers all: you repent, you're done, and G-d promises He won't even remember it happened.

Of course I remember, and I learn, and I try like crazy not to do it again.

What a shame some people, in or out of the Church (YW, primary, seminary, whatever) still push this false teaching.

Yes, it's "most precious."

Yes, it's a horrible crime to take it away by force.

Yes, IMNSHO, it should still have a death penalty attached to it [but that's a civil matter].

No, there is no shame or guilt in being victimized by the cowardly.

Indeed!

The "nail in the board," the "chewed piece of gum," the "candy-bar-out-of-the-wrapper-passed-around-the-classroom" object lessons were taught, but have since been repudiated.

[Bernard Gui]

True - she doesn't directly indict the LDS church (she's still apparently an active member according to wikipedia).l

If anyone is to be indicted, it should be the teacher (if LDS), not the church. This is not taught by the church.

[Scott Lloyd]

In the For Strength of Youth booklet it has a section about rape and assault and that if that has happened to you it doesn't mean that you are unchaste

True. Here is the applicable paragraph:

Victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sin and do not need to repent. If you have been a victim of abuse, know that you are innocent and that God loves you. Talk to your parents or another trusted adult, and seek your bishop’s counsel immediately. They can support you spiritually and assist you in getting the protection and help you need. The process of healing may take time. Trust in the Savior. He will heal you and give you peace.

Here is the link.

And the Young Women Personal Progress lesson that Ben McGuire linked to does cite that portion of "For the Strength of Youth." In fact, it's in the very same sentence as the Moroni 9:9 reference.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

Chastity and virtue have nothing to do with being a virgin. I am a chaste, virtuous person and I have had sex thousands of times.

Is your real name Gene Simmons?

[Scott Lloyd]

If anyone is to be indicted, it should be the teacher (if LDS), not the church. This is not taught by the church.

And though I don't doubt some people who live in and around Salt Lake City have that mistaken understanding, it is not endemic to the area, as has been implied in this thread. I say that as one who works daily in Salt Lake City and who lives in a suburb to it.