Brooks Blames Church For Elizabeth Smarts Captivity

[wenglund]

If you consider what was forced on Elizabeth Smart to be a defilement then you clearly have a less charitable view of her ordeal than her husband does.

I don't know what her husband thinks, but if he thinks that she wasn't violated or defiled, then he is an idiot, and seriously trivializes her ordeal. Rape is considered to be heinous because of the degree to which it violates and defiles.

It is not uncommon for women who have been raped to feel "dirty" and "disgusting" and to have a strong inclination to take showers to wash away the filth and defilement of the rapist--though, for prosecutorial reasons, this is the last thing they should do. This impulse is so strong in some rape victims that it may turn into an OCD-like disorder where they shower frequently and never feel clean.

This doesn't occur because of how society makes rape victims feel, but how the rape and the rapist makes them feel.

For you to brush this aside as though it doesn't happen, is disgusting.

How could any man settle for "damaged goods" when he could find a virgin or at least a chaste woman who had never been raped?

Are you serious? You view Elizabeth as "damaged goods"? Again, that's disgusting.

I sure don't. If you think that being violated and defiled is equivalent to "damaged goods," then the problem isn't with me, but with you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 8, 2013 by wenglund

[Calm]

Just because the church encourages marriage for men and women doesn't mean they cant be educated.

Education is not incompatible with Marriage.

For information on education of women (some reports deal with men as well)

http://www.utahwomenandeducation.org/assets/RS_No._12-College_Decisions.pdf

http://www.luminafoundation.org/1_no_parent_nav_bar_fix/state_work/utah/

Utah shows by far the largest gap in the nation between male and female college-graduation rates. The difference for college-educated Utah men and Utah women is 6.0 percentage points. New Jersey shows the next highest gap at 2.7 percentage points, while the national average is a mere 1.3 percentage points....

• Utah women generally experience higher unemployment rates than do Utah men. The exception is during recessionary periods when male jobless rates exceed those of females.
  
• Women make up the largest share of discouraged workers. Discouraged workers are those who have stopped looking for work because they believe they cannot find a job. They are not counted as part of the “unemployed....
  

• On average, Utah women made 69 percent of annual male earnings. Nationally, the American Community Survey shows a male/female wage ratio of 78 percent.
  
• Utah had the fourth largest wage gap in the nation in 2008, bettering its 1990 performance when Utah showed the widest gap in the nation.
  

http://jobs.utah.gov/wi/pubs/womencareers/factsheet.html

In 2009, Utah graduated 89.8% of its males (compared to 84.5% nationally) and 91% of its females (compared to 85.9% nationally).6 However, preliminary data recently released by the U.S. Department of Education has now put Utah’s overall high school graduation rate ranking in the bottom half of the country.7 Utah women start college at the same rate or slightly above the national average, and the share of the Utah population with an associate’s degree is actually higher for females than males.8 This is true in the 18–24, 25–34, and 35–44 age categories. This is no surprise, as the majority of students attending two-year colleges and earning associate degrees across the nation are women. However, Utah women have been less likely to complete bachelor’s degrees. There is currently a 6% gap in Utah’s population (ages 25 and over) with bachelor’s degrees held by men versus women, which is the largest gap in the nation. As Figure 2 illustrates, the share of Utah’s male population with bachelor’s degrees is above the U.S. average (31.6%), and Utah females are below the national average (25.4%).

http://www.utahwomenandeducation.org/assets/UWEI-Brief-2013-1B-FINAL-correct-link-2.4.13.pdf

[Calm]

One more:

Approximately 43.7% of men and 49% of women who enroll in Utah colleges and universities actually graduate. This does not compare well nationally for either gender. According to these statistics, bachelor’s degree graduation rates for Utah women are 9.5% below the nation and the percentage of men is similar (see Table 3).....USHE reports that Utah women receive 55% of the associate degrees awarded in public institutions while only 47% of bachelor degrees—the lowest of all 50 states. Utah also has the lowest percent of doctorate/professional degrees awarded to women in the nation (41%) and is only ahead of the District of Columbia for the percent of master degrees awarded to women (46%).

http://www.utahwomen...013-2-FINAL.pdf

Edited May 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Are you serious? You view Elizabeth as "damaged goods"? Again, that's disgusting.

I sure don't. If you think that being violated and defiled is equivalent to "damaged goods," then the problem isn't with me, but with you.

It is obvious in the context of the rest of his quote that he is being sarcastic.

I think his POV is that while women may feel defiled by the violation of their bodies, they are not actually defiled (as in made less of a person)

defile...

1. to make foul, dirty, or unclean; pollute; taint; debase.

2. to violate the chastity of.

3. to make impure for ceremonial use; desecrate.

4. to sully, as a person's reputation.

It is a feeling...an emotional response, but not the reality. I would agree with him as I suspect you do. Edited May 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nevo]

To defile means "to make unclean or impure." The OED has: "To render morally foul or polluted; to destroy the ideal purity of; to corrupt, taint, sully." Elizabeth was not made unclean or impure by the things she suffered. Not in the least. She felt that way at the time (partly as a result of her upbringing) but it wasn't true.

[Saints Alive]

[edit]

This board will not be used to add to Elizabeth Smart's pain. To all: Be as sensitive as possible.

[Calm]

I don't know if someone put up this link, but it is very important to hear it from Elizabeth in context....it is not long.

http://fox13now.com/...ins-university/

I can't believe they left her alone in an interrogation room...thankfully that apparently didn't last that long.

There was a significant part of her comments that were left out by Brooks and others while focusing on the "chewed up piece of gum" comment...Brooks at least describes the sense of degradation as a contribution, but others state the cause of her not screaming or trying to break free as LDS and abstinence teachings (see http://fox13now.com/...p-piece-of-gum/ )

Are the LDS faith and sex education in Utah the reasons why Elizabeth Smart didn’t scream for help or break free from her captor, Brian David Mitchell?

Smart said she felt dirty and filthy after being raped and like a chewed-up piece of gum.

The way Sister Smart presents it reads to me that it is fear for her family as much as a sense of degradation....she states that she can imagine why someone wouldn't run for that reason alone, but it was not the only reason for her though it was obviously a huge burden for her. She also states that she was able to survive because she knew her family would love her no matter what, that they would be there for her when it was all over.

She is just so absolutely sweet and humble, what a remarkable human being.

Edited May 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[juliann]

To defile someone is entirely different than telling someone they are defiled. It does not carry the same message as say, brutalized. We need to be more careful with words. That is part of what the church is facing now, many women are tired of the demeaning or condescending words used and the freedom men feel in telling them what they should be or feel (as we have seen here). No harm is intended, no ill intent, of course. But we view our world through language.

As for education, it is absurd to say that girls are taught education is a priority. I cannot think of one instance in which girls were told to be sure to have a career. Education is always put in the context of making a better home when it comes to women or something that can be pulled off the shelf if the husband doesn't deliver. This is another example of the church not ackowledging current reality. Change is so rapid it would be very difficult to jump into the workforce with no prior experience and an out of date degree. For boys it is get an education so you can use it the rest of your life to earn a good living. For girls it is get an education to make yourself a better mother and hope like heck your husband stays around.

Elizabeth Smart is now on CNN.

[juliann]

Definition of DEFILE

: to make unclean or impure: as

a : to corrupt the purity or perfection of : debase <the countryside defiled by billboards>

b : to violate the chastity of : deflower

c : to make physically unclean especially with something unpleasant or contaminating <boots defiled with blood>

d : to violate the sanctity of : desecrate <defile a sanctuary>

e : sully, dishonor

I'd say all but a fit what happened to Elizabeth and I'd be willing to argue that a applies as well.

What a disgusting thing to say.

[Calm]

I think she is who she is in spite of her upbringing.

You may only be referring to your wife...but if you are applying her experience generally and specifically to Sister Smart, you should listen to the video when you can....though I know you have difficulty with internet connection. It is pretty obvious that the love she felt coming from her family sustained her to a great part and allowed her to survive and gave her hope.

I think much of who we are is in spite of our upbringing and much of who we are is because of our upbringing. Sometimes this makes for a good mix, other times not so good.

[Calm]

I'd be willing to argue that a applies as well

Why in the world would you even need to consider this? This is not some abstract debate, but a living, breathing woman who deserves nothing but our deepest respect and kindness. To turn her into an object for debate over the precise meaning of a word shows a detachment from the reality of the situation that is very troubling.

Oh, I'm sure you would. This board really is appalling sometimes.

It is unfortunate when people don't take into account the implications of their words as much as the precision of them. Connotations are as important in communication, imo, as denotations. http://www.writingcentre.uottawa.ca/hypergrammar/conndeno.html Edited May 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

To defile someone is entirely different than telling someone they are defiled. It does not carry the same message as say, brutalized. We need to be more careful with words. That is part of what the church is facing now, many women are tired of the demeaning or condescending words used and the freedom men feel in telling them what they should be or feel (as we have seen here). No harm is intended, no ill intent, of course. But we view our world through language.

Yes, yes, yes....and many, many more yeses....

[Calm]

Definition of DEFILE

: to make unclean or impure: as

a : to corrupt the purity or perfection of : debase <the countryside defiled by billboards>....

e : sully, dishonor

I'd say all but a fit what happened to Elizabeth and I'd be willing to argue that a applies as well.

How was she less pure or perfect because of someone else's actions? The scriptures teach us we are not defiled by what acts upon us, but by our own actions.

Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

She is not less honourable or less clean because of what he did to her, it was his dishonour, his filth....not hers.

There is a proper place and time to dissect the meaning of words....this is not one of them.

Edited May 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

I think his POV is that while women may feel defiled by the violation of their bodies, they are not actually defiled (as in made less of a person)

It is a feeling...an emotional response, but not the reality. I would agree with him as I suspect you do.

Cal I think that is the point that Wade is making It isn't so but the ordeal makes women feel that way whatever their background. It has nothing to do with religious background as it is common across all women when they have to endure that experience.

[Calm]

Cal I think that is the point that Wade is making It isn't so but the ordeal makes women feel that way whatever their background. It has nothing to do with religious background as it is common across all women when they have to endure that experience.

I agree with that point as well.

My understanding is the initial response to rape is pretty consistent over cultures and one that is experienced by men as well...as Wade (IIRC) described the sense of needing to be rid of anything that is connected with the experience, being clean is being free of and disconnected from the rapist.

It is the later response that tends to vary more and may be greatly influenced by religious or cultural background. Considering how Sister Smart has engaged her life since her ordeal would seem to indicate there is a good chance that her religious and family background helped her move past the experience of degradation and contamination into feeling whole and of value again. If people are truly concerned about helping women, they need to explore this as much as the reaction of feeling like a "piece of chewed gum".

I hope this ability to help with healing due to our faith is so, it seems logical to me that our belief in the way the Atonement works in our life and other aspects of eternal relationships would. Unfortunately not all cultures provide such support, some even lead women to commit suicide due to their sense of loss never being able to be overcome and it is important to try and identify the negative as well as the positive to promote the latter while eliminating the former as much as possible.

[EllenMaksoud]

Read here: http://www.religiond...rsity_audience/

Basically she is saying if the church Didnt hold chastity as important Elizabeth Smart would have ran away from her captors. Give me a break!

What a crock !

I won't attempt to compare my own situation with Elizabeth Smart's plight.

Adults automatically have sway over us, and I suppose that she respected the adults in her life. Our church certainly preaches that. This is a case where an evil man took advantage of that training.

. I imagine that she was simply too afraid to try it, and with his wife in collusion with him, it seemed hopeless. Anyone who tries to blame her needs to fall off a motorcycle on the freeway.

[Calm]

I imagine that she was simply too afraid to try it, and with his wife in collusion with him, it seemed hopeless. Anyone who tries to blame her needs to fall off a motorcycle on the freeway.

She makes it pretty clear that when presented with his impossible seeming ability to sneak into her home without alerting other members of her family (or possibly having killed them already), with what that implied for the safety of her family including the sister who was asleep in the room with her, that it rendered her too fearful to do anything but obey him at the time of her kidnapping...and what followed only emphasized his power over her to the point that even when police questioned her she didn't speak up and allowed them to walk away and it was not until she had been separated from him, he was taken out of her presence, that she was able to feel safe enough to speak out.

I remember when it happened and how so many jumped on conspiracy theories and such because it was so unbelievable to them that she wouldn't make enough noise to wake her sister or later to speak up even in the presence of police...but I think that just indicates that they have never been in a position of total fear and lacked the imagination to consider the possibility.

[Tacenda]

I was so upset when I heard Elizabeth being interviewed awhile back when she said that the searchers were so close to her in the hills behind her house but missed finding her within yards. That's terrible, we could have done better than that, how she must have felt.

Also, I believe she was quite sheltered, not unlike a lot of young people out there. They just aren't that street smart and don't realize the evil that is out there. That's why I think we need to arm them with some type of heavy duty Self Defense course. In fact it should be mandatory in schools, maybe part of the PE curriculum.

I say everyone on MDDB help get it into law. Or just start spreading the word around. It wouldn't hurt.

[Saints Alive]

What a disgusting thing to say.

Rape is a disgusting thing, It doesn't make the victim of any less worth or value. To say it has no effect on the victim is like saying losing a limb has no effect on the amputee.

All of the definitions fit, maybe not in the sense you are thinking but it does fit. I have had the unfortunate occasion to counsel rape victims, probably the hardest thing I have ever done. The word THEY use to describe their feelings is "defiled," it is a very accurate description of what happens and how the victim feels.

[wenglund]

It is obvious in the context of the rest of his quote that he is being sarcastic.

I think his POV is that while women may feel defiled by the violation of their bodies, they are not actually defiled (as in made less of a person)

It is a feeling...an emotional response, but not the reality. I would agree with him as I suspect you do.

I hear what you are saying. However, to me, in some substantial ways, perception is reality, and the reality of rape is serious and ought not be trivialized, particularly not for semantic games like what I view Questing Beast engaging in.

That perceptions may later be changed, doesn't alter the serious reality of what was experienced in the moment or for some time thereafter. If women feel seriously defiled when raped, I am certainly not going to say that they weren't. I would rather agree with them--though I may later suggest that the defilement isn't permanent, and isn't a reflection on them or really about them, even though it was done to them.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 8, 2013 by wenglund

[Saints Alive]

How was she less pure or perfect because of someone else's actions? The scriptures teach us we are not defiled by what acts upon us, but by our own actions.

Spiritually she is just as pure. Mentally, socially, and physically... no way. That kind of trauma almost always causes deep scares.

She is not less honourable or less clean because of what he did to her, it was his dishonour, his filth....not hers.

She was dishonored was she not? She was less clean, physically anyway. If someone throws mud at me I am unclean, even though it is not my fault.

[EllenMaksoud]

Spiritually she is just as pure. Mentally, socially, and physically... no way. That kind of trauma almost always causes deep scares.

She was dishonored was she not? She was less clean, physically anyway. If someone throws mud at me I am unclean, even though it is not my fault.

I'm feeling a lot of rage right now!

When people have evil things done to them, it does a lot of damage, and takes a long time to heal, and when you think you are healed, some jerk comes along and reminds you of the hurt and it feels like you are reliving the hurts all over again. It is almost like the person that reminded you is your perpetrator all over again. Sometimes it just feels like it would just be easier to slip a plastic bag over your head and a wire tie and make it all go away. I mean, how many times do you have to re live these things. What with the Boston thing and the Ohio thing, I am not safe, any more !

[Bernard Gui]

Nor do I recall the comments that a parent would rather see their child dead and in a coffin then to lose their virginity, and in fact David Bednar repeated that heinous idea in a BYUI talk shortly before being called to be an apostle.

CFR, please.

[Nevo]

I'm feeling a lot of rage right now!

When people have evil things done to them, it does a lot of damage, and takes a long time to heal, and when you think you are healed, some jerk comes along and reminds you of the hurt and it feels like you are reliving the hurts all over again.

I'm sorry, Ellen. Please try to ignore "Saints Alive"—he's not worth it.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Nevo

[Saints Alive]

I'm sorry, Ellen. Please try to ignore "Saints Alive"—he's not worth it.

I don't believe I did anything other than state fact, certainly nothing directed at Ellen. But thanks for making a judgement about my worth.

That was not appropriate but neither are your comments. You have been removed.