Brooks Blames Church For Elizabeth Smarts Captivity

[Calm]

Perhaps kids these days are so fragile in their psyche or lacking the ability to synthesize, that each time a lesson is given that strongly discourages a particular sin, it should immediately be buffered with a qualify comment about the atonement.

Atonement is the center of the Gospel. I don't think it would be a bad idea if it was being constantly taught.****

The Prophet Joseph Smith once declared that all things “which pertain to our religion are only appendages” to the Atonement ofJesus Christ. ¹ In like manner and for the same reasons, every truth that a missionary or member teaches is only an appendage to the central message of all time—that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Holy Messiah, the Promised One, the Savior and Redeemer of the world; that He alone burst the bands of death and triumphed over the captivity of hell; that no one of us could ever have those same blessings without His intervention in our behalf; and that there never shall be any “other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, [except] in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.” ²

Our basic message is that with a complete offering of His body, His blood, and the anguish of His spirit, Christ atoned for the initial transgression of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and also for the personal sins of everyone else who would ever live in this world from Adam to the end of time.

https://www.lds.org/...nement?lang=eng

*****Though certainly not the only thing taught.

Edited May 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

And yes, teens are lacking in the ability to synthesize in comparison to adults:

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/criminal_justice_section_newsletter/crimjust_juvjus_Adolescence.authcheckdam.pdf

Jay Giedd, a researcher at the National Institute of Mental Health, explains that during adolescence the “part of the brain that is helping organization, planning and strategizing is not done being built yet.... It’s sort of unfair to expect [adolescents] to have adult levels of organizational skills or decision making before their brain is finished being built.”6

Dr. Deborah Yurgelun-Todd of Harvard Medical School has studied the relation between these new findings and teen behavior and concluded that adolescents often rely on emotional parts of the brain, rather than the frontal lobe. She explains, “one of the things that teenagers seem to do is to respond more strongly with gut response than they do with evaluating the consequences of what they’re doing.”7

Also, appearances may be deceiving: “Just because they’re physically mature, they may not appreciate the consequences or weigh information the same way as adults do. So we may be mistaken if we think that [although] somebody looks physically mature, their brain may in fact not be mature.”8

This discovery gives us a new understanding into juvenile delinquency. The frontal lobe is “involved in behavioral facets germane to many aspects of criminal culpability,”9 explains Dr. Ruben C. Gur, neuropsychologist and Director of the Brain Behavior Laboratory at the University of Pennsylvania. “Perhaps most relevant is the involvement of these brain regions in the control of aggression and other impulses.... If the neural sub- strates of these behaviors have not reached maturity before adulthood, it is unreasonable to expect the behaviors themselves to reflect mature thought processes.

“The evidence now is strong that the brain does not cease to mature until the early 20s in those relevant parts that govern impulsivity, judgment, planning for the future, foresight of con- sequences, and other characteristics that make people morally culpable.... Indeed, age 21 or 22 would be closer to the ‘biolog- ical’ age of maturity.”10

[Calm]

The chewed gum analogy may not be the best, but what object lesson would you prefer?

I've been thinking about this for a bit and have been remembering my husband or some science show talking about a new product that holds the shape of whatever it's been given when force is applied to it until heat is applied to it, at which time it morphs back into its original state. Perhaps something like this could be used with the Atonement being the "heat" applied to our lives to restore it to purity and innocence in a spiritual sense, even though we will maintain knowledge of our experiences.

Anyone know of something like this?

[teddyaware]

No, we are talking about how some people add to the doctrine by throwing in "chewed gum" analogies and ignoring how the Atonement actually works in one's life even for sexual sin.

The "chewed gum analogy" is ridiculous. Likening a daughter of God to a piece of chewing gum is about as crude and dumb as an analogy can get -- if this can indeed can even be called a proper analogy. But Elizabeth's address wasn't just about the "chewed gum" analogy. Raped women of all faiths and walks of life invariably feel violated, unclean and damaged after they're attacked. But common sense dictates warning LDS young women that violating the law of chastity will make them feel violated, unclean and damaged as well is no intended slight against rape victims who have committed no sin.

Edited May 9, 2013 by teddyaware

[wenglund]

Atonement is the center of the Gospel. I don't think it would be a bad idea if it was being constantly taught.****

https://www.lds.org/...nement?lang=eng

*****Though certainly not the only thing taught.

I agree with the instructional principle of repetition, particularly in relation to fundamental aspects of the gospel. But, this doesn't answer my question regarding how kids will learn to connect the gospel dots if we continue to do it for them?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 9, 2013 by wenglund

[wenglund]

What has me shaking my head, is how seemingly benign analogies, like chewing gum and cupcakes, can allegedly have such catastrophic consequences among our youth as to rile grown adults into a righteous indignant froth. I don't get it--particularly when there are things like the deluge of prurient material crashing over our youth by the minute from pop culture and various media outlets that is clearly intended to sexualize them. I would think that kids watching a few minutes of prime-time TV these days would have a far more damaging affect on them than a chewing gum analogy. But, what do I know?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 9, 2013 by wenglund

[omni]

I don't think Moroni 9:9 is as damaging as some hear are suggesting. I think if you took a poll of young women over 90% wouldn't even be familiar with it. Besides that, it's quite clear the modern church doesn't teach that rape victims have committed any type of sin or should share any responsibility for what happened.

I believe a much more harmful scripture Is Alma 39:5 which describes sexual sin as being second only to murder in its gravity. This is still frequently taught today and I'm sure most young women (and men) are well aware of it. With the almost obsessive emphasis we place on immorality it's only natural that a rape victim would feel some guilt even if doctrinally speaking they shouldn't have to.

[wenglund]

I believe a much more harmful scripture Is Alma 39:5 which describes sexual sin as being second only to murder in its gravity. This is still frequently taught today and I'm sure most young women (and men) are well aware of it. With the almost obsessive emphasis we place on immorality it's only natural that a rape victim would feel some guilt even if doctrinally speaking they shouldn't have to.

Yes...let's be very afraid of any approximating comparisons between abusing the power to give life with abusing the power to take life. Not even close.

Of course I am being facetious, and I need to make that clear since we are living in an increasingly upside-down world.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[sethpayne]

I'm rather shocked that anyone can look at that scripture and not take it at its word. It clearly says their virtue and chastity was the most precious thing they had. And it was gone. Taken means....gone. I mean come on, is it really that important to defend a few words? Only those who have grown up and become hardened to the use of that verse as a means of keeping girls in line is going to see it saying anything differently.

The point is that the Brooks of the world shouldn't have to be pointing this out! We should be doing it and there should be nonstop memos going out to bishops to fix this awful stuff.

And the men who are insistent they are not hearing this stuff? Well, that is because it is used on the girls! And as for a school or a church teacher doing it....Smart was in Provo so it would still be a Mormon issue. According to what I read, she also said she got it at home which I thought was an even bigger ouch. I can't even begin to express how impressed I am with this young woman. This needs to stop and the modesty obsession that is laid at the feet of our girls is a part of it.

This.

[Bill Hamblin]

By all means we should emphasize that rape is not in any way the fault of the victim. But I think we need to realize that for 90+% or so of the young women of the church, rape is not, and never will be, an issue. For most young women, the problem is going to be pre-martial sexual activity. What happened to Elizabeth Smart was a terrible crime and tragedy. But it is very rare.

[bluebell]

As long as the analogy is followed by teaching about the miracle of the Atonement, I don't believe chewed gum is at all inappropriate to use when talking about sexual choices which are sinful. In fact, I think it's actually a good way to explain what sin does to us, and to show exactly how miraculous the Atonement is-that it can take a choice we made that seems like it can't be fixed or ever righted, (liked gross chewed gum) and make it brand new again.

I don't think enough kids (or adults) really understand what a gift the Atonement is and just what it can accomplish in us, so a lesson which visualizes the extremes between the reality of sin and the reality of repentance/forgiveness could very much be the correct way to go.

However, if the analogy does not end with the Atonement making us into brand new, wrapper still on, pieces of gum, then it's teaching false doctrine and can do some real damage.

[Bernard Gui]

Already provided.

Please repost it. I can't look through the whole thread....Thanks!

[Bernard Gui]

I was molested when I was about three---my parents found out and put a stop to it-----this was about 1941----when I was 12 andstarted M I A---ths subject of chastity came up----I was quite upset and I went home and asked my mother, "Mom, am I a virgin"? She looked at me with the fiercest look on her face and said"YES YOU ARE"---convinced me---I always regarded myself as clean and morally pure.Thank God for my good Mother.

You are blessed to have such a mother!

[Bernard Gui]

Here's a thought. Suppose we ammend the "chewing gum" analogy to say that repentance is like an amazing, fantastic machine that can magically take chewed gum and turn it into brand-new, clean gum.

From this:

To this:

From a previous post:

My analogy of the ABC gum:

Here is a piece of chewed gum. Anybody want to chew it? I didn't think so. This is what sin can do to us. Here is a fresh piece of gum still in the wrapper. Anybody want to chew it? OK. Delicious, isn't it. You may be chewed gum (a sinner), but Jesus will make you whole and fresh and new again. This is what the Atonement can do for each of us when we sin.

[thesometimesaint]

As long as the analogy is followed by teaching about the miracle of the Atonement, I don't believe chewed gum is at all inappropriate to use when talking about sexual choices which are sinful. In fact, I think it's actually a good way to explain what sin does to us, and to show exactly how miraculous the Atonement is-that it can take a choice we made that seems like it can't be fixed or ever righted, (liked gross chewed gum) and make it brand new again.

I don't think enough kids (or adults) really understand what a gift the Atonement is and just what it can accomplish in us, so a lesson which visualizes the extremes between the reality of sin and the reality of repentance/forgiveness could very much be the correct way to go.

However, if the analogy does not end with the Atonement making us into brand new, wrapper still on, pieces of gum, then it's teaching false doctrine and can do some real damage.

The victim has nothing to repent of. Christ will dry all tears, but even he can't make those tears to have never existed. Our bitterest trials are but of a small moment, and will give us experience, and will eventually work for our good. Probably not in this life, but in the next.

[wenglund]

Evidently, Christ made a huge mistake in not attaching an atonement addendum to his counsel to the Church about treating adulterers as analogous to severing of hands (Mt. 5:30)

Again, I think some of us have lost any semblance of reasonable perspective about the chewing gum analogy. I mean, if backsliders, and sinners, and Greeks, and so forth, can handle God referring to them analogously as dogs (returning to their vomit), then we should have little or no problem with fornication being likened to chewing gum--with or without an atonement chaser.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 9, 2013 by wenglund

[bluebell]

The victim has nothing to repent of. Christ will dry all tears, but even he can't make those tears to have never existed. Our bitterest trials are but of a small moment, and will give us experience, and will eventually work for our good. Probably not in this life, but in the next.

I figured when i purposefully said in my post "sexual choices" that it would be obvious that people who don't choose such, have nothing to repent of.

The Atonement is still paramount in a victim's life, of course, but that was no the focus of my comments.

[bluebell]

Evidently, Christ made a huge mistake in not attaching an atonement addendum to his counsel to the Church about treating adulterers as analogous to severing of hands (Mt. 5:30)

Again, I think some of us have lost any semblance of reasonable perspective about the chewing gum analogy. I mean, if backsliders, and sinners, and Greeks, and so forth, can handle God referring to them analogously as dogs (returning to their vomit), then we should have little or no problem with fornication being likened to chewing gum--with or without an atonement chaser.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

We are not God. Just because God can or does do something, doesn't mean we are able to (or should even try to) do the exact same thing with the same results. It's silly to attempt to chastize anyone for suggesting that there needs to be more focus on the Atonement, regardless of the topic.

[ERayR]

I was molested when I was about three---my parents found out and put a stop to it-----this was about 1941----when I was 12 andstarted M I A---ths subject of chastity came up----I was quite upset and I went home and asked my mother, "Mom, am I a virgin"? She looked at me with the fiercest look on her face and said"YES YOU ARE"---convinced me---I always regarded myself as clean and morally pure.Thank God for my good Mother.

You have a wonderful mother. The church would be remiss if they did not teach and stress chastity. Teacher should be prepared to teach that forced participation in sex does not affect the chastity of an individual.

[wenglund]

We are not God. Just because God can or does do something, doesn't mean we are able to (or should even try to) do the exact same thing with the same results. It's silly to attempt to chastize anyone for suggesting that there needs to be more focus on the Atonement, regardless of the topic.

First, if we were talking about extreme types of divine action, like raining down fire and brimstone on people, then you may have a point. But, it is profoundly silly to think that teaching by analogy is something to be reserved only to God. Get a grip.

Second, my comments can not, in any rational sense, be viewed as chastising "anyone for suggesting that there needs to be more focus on the Atonement." In fact, I have explicitly said, on this thread, that I believe the instructional strategy of repetition is particularly important with fundamental precepts like the atonement.

Rather, my chastisement was of people loosing proper perspective and sense of proportion in relation to certain analogies like chewing gum, and to suggest that it isn't the end of the world if a teacher doesn't happen to follow certain analogies with an atonement addendum.

Again, I am suggesting people get a grip.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 9, 2013 by wenglund

[cinepro]

By all means we should emphasize that rape is not in any way the fault of the victim. But I think we need to realize that for 90+% or so of the young women of the church, rape is not, and never will be, an issue. For most young women, the problem is going to be pre-martial sexual activity. What happened to Elizabeth Smart was a terrible crime and tragedy. But it is very rare.

Any analogy that would imply that full spiritual restitution is not available to everyone is false doctrine and has no place in any Church that would aspire to teach only true doctrine.

In other words, even if the incidence of sexual assault were 0 among LDS, analogies that imply some sort of permanent degradation would still be offensive, false, and damaging.

Some may argue that it is worth it to teach offensive, false and damaging things if it helps some youth avoid making mistakes (and the collateral damage to abuse victims and those who sin is worth it for the greater good), but let's at least agree on the nature of what is being taught, and the price we pay for the manipulation.

Edited May 9, 2013 by cinepro

[thesometimesaint]

I figured when i purposefully said in my post "sexual choices" that it would be obvious that people who don't choose such, have nothing to repent of.

The Atonement is still paramount in a victim's life, of course, but that was no the focus of my comments.

No problem.

[bluebell]

First, if we were talking about extreme types of divine action, like raining down fire and brimstone on people, then you may have a point. But, it is profoundly silly to think that teaching by analogy is something to be reserved only to God. Get a grip.

I have a grip, thank you.

However, i never said that teaching by analogy should only be reserved for God. I implied that just because God has used analogies to teach us does not mean that every analogy WE use to teach with is appropriate, beneficial, or condoned by Him.

God doesn't use analogies that can mess up His message, we sometimes can and sometimes do though.

Second, my comments can not, in any rational sense, be viewed as chastising "anyone for suggesting that there needs to be more focus on the Atonement." In fact, I have explicitly said, on this thread, that I believe the instructional strategy of repetition is particularly important with fundamental precepts like the atonement.

Rather, my chastisement was of people loosing proper perspective and sense of proportion in relation to certain analogies like chewing gum, and to suggest that it isn't the end of the world if a teacher doesn't happen to follow certain analogies with an atonement addendum.

Again, I am suggesting people get a grip.

I would suggest that anyone who attempts to teach about the consequences of sin without an 'atonement addendum' is the person who has lost proper perspective and sense of proportion.

The church is supposed to teach the gospel (or good news) of Christ first and foremost. It's not really possible to teach the Gospel, especially as it applies to sin, without teaching the Atonement, becaue the Gospel IS the Atonement. And if you aren't trying to teach the Gospel at church, you should just sit down and be quiet, no matter how awesome you think the analogy is.

Also, Just because someone disagrees with your opinion, doesn't mean they need to 'get a grip'.

[cinepro]

FWIW, this Ensign article about a young woman being sexually assaulted on a date was very memorable for its frankness and discussion of how such an experience can affect a person.

https://www.lds.org/...r-soul?lang=eng

Edited May 9, 2013 by cinepro

[bluebell]

FWIW, this Ensign article about a young woman being sexually assaulted on a date was very memorable for it's frankness and discussion of how such an experience can affect a person.

"]https://www.lds.org/...soul?lang=enge]

For some reason i can't get the link to work Cinepro-it just keeps telling me the page cannot be found.