Brooks Blames Church For Elizabeth Smarts Captivity

[blackstrap]

teddyaware, do you mean are we one of those " shoot and be damned " kind of people ? For myself, I can say yes, but if faced with the impending deaths of my family I might hesitate.

[teddyaware]

teddyaware, do you mean are we one of those " shoot and be damned " kind of people ? For myself, I can say yes, but if faced with the impending deaths of my family I might hesitate.

This is why I asked the question. And understand that I asked it more rhetorically than I did as an outright request for responses.

Your response reminds me of those situational ethics scenarios that we so popular some years ago. There was always a good reason to question the traditional Judeo/Christian values you'd been taught. In saying this, I'm not indicating that your scenario isn't very challenging and valid. Yet it was not I who said...

" And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

[Calm]

This is why I asked the question. And understand that I asked it more rhetorically than I did as an outright request for responses.

Your response reminds me of those situational ethics scenarios that we so popular some years ago. There was always a good reason to question the traditional Judeo/Christian values you'd been taught. In saying this, I'm not indicating that your scenario isn't very challenging and valid. Yet it was not I who said...

" And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

But couldn't it destroy the soul to stand by and watch someone suffer when we could do something to stop it? Or perhaps at least be a step towards thinking all things connected with ourselves were more important than what happened to others? And would it destroy the soul if we knew the truth of something even as important as the reality of God and his goodness and our belief and commitment to him but yet denied it in order to protect those God gave into our stewardship or others he has spoken of not offending/harming (better to have never been born IIRC)?

I am trying to remember if there are any scriptures that describe where someone was placed in that kind of a choice, where if they lied it could save a life...and I am thinking that there are some where a person lied (the midwives of the Israelites, IIRC) to save others, but I can't remember any that required someone to deny God or another would die....just those who were willing to die for their own testimonies.

add-on and on:

Ex 1:15 ¶And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:

16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

And of course there is Abraham and Sarah, though that was telling the technical truth according to some, but intentionally misrepresented their actual relationship.

And then there was the servant of Helaman who pretended to be one of the band of Kishkumen and Gadianton to learn of their plans...and likely had to swear the oaths that were required of the members of the band in order to do so: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel/2.7?lang=eng#6

Edited May 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

But couldn't it destroy the soul to stand by and watch someone suffer when we could do something to stop it? Or perhaps at least be a step towards thinking all things connected with ourselves were more important than what happened to others? And would it destroy the soul if we knew the truth of something even as important as the reality of God and his goodness and our belief and commitment to him but yet denied it in order to protect those God gave into our stewardship or others he has spoken of not offending/harming (better to have never been born IIRC)?

I am trying to remember if there are any scriptures that describe where someone was placed in that kind of a choice, where if they lied it could save a life...and I am thinking that there are some where a person lied (the midwives of the Israelites, IIRC) to save others, but I can't remember any that required someone to deny God or another would die....just those who were willing to die for their own testimonies.

add-on and on:

And of course there is Abraham and Sarah, though that was telling the technical truth according to some, but intentionally misrepresented their actual relationship.

For your consideration:

"8 And they (the wicked unbelievers of Ammonihah) brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day. (Alma 14)

[Calm]

For your consideration:

"8 And they (the wicked unbelievers of Ammonihah) brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day. (Alma 14)

But where is there any demand that they deny their faith?

Plus there is the rather significant "The Spirit constraineth me that I must not". What to do if the Spirit did not constrain, would not have Alma saved the innocent? If God can command Abraham and Sarah to lie to save their own lives and commend the midwives for lying to save others' lives, do you think the Spirit might command someone to lie about their faith?

[teddyaware]

But where is there any demand that they deny their faith?

Plus there is the rather significant "The Spirit constraineth me that I must not". What to do if the Spirit did not constrain, would not have Alma saved the innocent? If God can command Abraham and Sarah to lie to save their own lives and commend the midwives for lying to save others' lives, do you think the Spirit might command someone to lie about their faith?

I'm not an unreasonably strict black and white kind of guy, cal. In situations like the one in Alma's account, we are shown there might indeed be times when the saints may have to give up their lives for the truth -- even innocent children who have the whole of their lives ahead of them may have to die torturous deaths for the Lord. So this gives some scripturally informed perspective on the whole issue as to whether or not we need to prepare ourselves and others to be willing to give up our lives, if need be, for the Gospel's sake.

By the way, aren't you splitting hairs when you say: "But where is there any demand that they deny their faith?" To have embraced Alma's and Amuleks teachings, and to have united with the Church in such a hostile atmosphere, as existed in Ammonihah, was already tantamount to their making a life and death decisions. It took real courage to come unto Christ in a city where such evil, anti-Christ cutthroats were ensconced in the seats of power.

Edited May 10, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

It took real courage to come unto Christ in a city where such evil, anti-Christ cutthroats were ensconced in the seats of power.

What I meant is that they weren't put in a position where someone held a knife to a child's throat and said "I will let this child live if you deny your God". They weren't given that choice, that is the choice I am wondering if any scripture tells of...there are stories of lies being told to save the lives of others as opposed to stories of being killed oneself, I am wondering if there are stories where someone was given the choice to lie or tell the truth and by telling the truth knew that those who demanded him to lie or else killed the other they had threatened.

I am not saying that the lack of stories means we should never, ever make that choice; I believe that if the Spirit were to witness to us that we should and we were certain of that witness, that is a choice we must consider. I am just curious if there are scriptural examples to point to.

Edited May 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

What I meant is that they weren't put in a position where someone held a knife to a child's throat and said "I will let this child live if you deny your God". They weren't given that choice, that is the choice I am wondering if any scripture tells of...there are stories of lies being told to save the lives of others as opposed to stories of being killed oneself, I am wondering if there are stories where someone was given the choice to lie or tell the truth and by telling the truth knew that those who demanded him to lie or else killed the other they had threatened.

I am not saying that the lack of stories means we should never, ever make that choice; I believe that if the Spirit were to witness to us that we should and we were certain of that witness, that is a choice we must consider. I am just curious if there are scriptural examples to point to.

Have limited time to respond because I'm about to leave for work.

Cal, we don't know whether or not the Ammonihahian (how do you like that one?) martyrs were given a chance to recant their testimonies in order to preserve their lives. From Zeezrom's encounter with Amulek, the fact that they might do so certainly seems a good possibility...

22 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being." (Alma 11)

Understand, too, that the reason why I chose to post the portion of Alma's account dealing with martyrdom is because it directly addresses blackstrap's comment, wherein he said:

"teddyaware, do you mean are we one of those " shoot and be damned " kind of people ? For myself, I can say yes, but if faced with the impending deaths of my family I might hesitate. "

So as you can clearly see, there was a life and death choice involved over gospel testimony in Alma's account. In this case, it was Alma who had the choice whether or not to use the power of God to stop faith-related mass murder. He had the power to stop the atrocity, but he did not intervene to save the innocent. This gives blackstrap something to think about, doesn't it?

Finally, as I understand it, the ancient Meridian Christians on the other side of the world were routinely given the option to worship an image of Caesar or die. Many thousands choose to die rather than place another God before God the Father and Christ. And they didn't just die quickly and easily -- they were tortured beyond measure. So Paul testifies that:

"... and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:" (Hebrews 11:35)

Edited May 10, 2013 by teddyaware

[Senator]

So as you can clearly see, there was a life and death choice involved over gospel testimony in Alma's account. In this case, it was Alma who had the choice whether or not to use the power of God to stop faith-related mass murder. He had the power to stop the atrocity, but he did not intervene to save the innocent. This gives blackstrap something to think about, doesn't it?

I'll readily confess that this story of Alma has always befuddled me. Let me just say that I'm very glad that the Spirit doesn't normally restrain the Oskar Schindlers of the world.

[wenglund]

I would suggest that anyone who attempts to teach about the consequences of sin without an 'atonement addendum' is the person who has lost proper perspective and sense of proportion.

The scriptures are filled with instances where the consequences of sin are presented, at times through analogies (I have cited several in this thread), and not immediately followed by an atonement addendum. Are you seriously suggesting that the scriptures have lost proper perspective and a sense of proportion?

To me, the scriptures, along with the Spirit, are what we saints use to gage whether our perspective and sense of proportion is proper--at least that is what I have used to determine in this case who may or may not need to get a grip.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

For those people who may balk at the notion that virtue and chastity may be more important than physical life, please remember that sin leads to spiritual sickness and death. And, keep in mind that to God, and by extension the leaders of his Church, all things are spiritual.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 10, 2013 by wenglund

[Calm]

Finally, as I understand it, the ancient Meridian Christians on the other side of the world were routinely given the option to worship an image of Caesar or die. Many thousands choose to die rather than place another God before God the Father and Christ. And they didn't just die quickly and easily -- they were tortured beyond measure. So Paul testifies that:

"... and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:" (Hebrews 11:35)

Good reference, thanks. (add-on: but again not one that talks about others having to die because of one making a stand...though I have no doubt this has taken place during Biblical times people being as twisted as they sometimes are) Edited May 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

I wasn't playing mind games. I simply said that life, virtue and freedom are all worth dying for. I thought, considering most of us here are Latter-day Saints, that simply repeating what I've heard in Church throughout my 43 years as a member (especially in sacred places) wouldn't be very offensive and controversial. So I withheld my more expansive explanation of the principle, wanting to see if what I'd been taught many times would cause offence, and so it did.

So at the risk of causing further offence, let me ask the board members who care to respond the following question: If the time ever comes when it will be worth your life to openly admit you're a Latter-day Saint, will you be willing to give up your life for your testimony of Christ, the Book of Mormon, and the Restored Gospel?

Would you be willing to give up your child's life to openly admit his a Latter-day Saint?

[Tacenda]

Would you be willing to give up your child's life to openly admit his a Latter-day Saint?

Nope!

[Deborah]

Brooks didn't get it right. Not sure if this has been posted.

http://createwritebalance.com/2013/05/08/dont-believe-everything-you-read-in-the-news/

[USU78]

Brooks didn't get it right. Not sure if this has been posted.

http://createwriteba...ad-in-the-news/

She never does. Her hatreds make her both blind and stupid.

[Calm]

The message that I gathered from the elegant Smart was the importance of educating children about human trafficking, teaching them to be prepared because parents won’t be able to be with their children every second of the day (or night), and also to instill in these children a strong sense of self-worth, so should they ever (heaven forbid) be trafficked they would have the strength to overcome.

Exactly what I've been saying...or trying to say at least.

[USU78]

Exactly what I've been saying...or trying to say at least.

And doing so beautifully, IMNSHO

[Calm]

And doing so beautifully, IMNSHO

Thank you.

[Calm]

Having gone through what young American males go through in order to become successful high school and college athletes, I'm now and have long been highly unlikely to be picked as a target of sexual assault. If one wishes to attack me, he can see by the way I stand and carry myself that the stakes would be quite high upon any physical encounter. He'd better be prepared to risk serious injury in order to inflict injury.

Going back over the thread to refresh my memory (it not being at its best today), I noticed I hadn't responded to this comment of yours after you were kind enough to add detail to your previous comment. I found it quite interesting and informative and I appreciate greatly when people are willing to share these kinds of personal details because it really does help me understand how people process beliefs and just life in general, which subject is one of the most important ones out there for us to examine in my opinion.

It also made me wondered if women can in general ever get to that point where they can create that self image that one isn't likely to be seen as a potential target of assault due to the inherent physical difference between men and women in the majority of cases where women will be at a significant disadvantage due to size and muscle mass...even trained women if surprised so that the man can grab them may not be able to free themselves, whereas a man would generally be more likely to be able to do so due to a closer physical build.

[KevinG]

Would you be willing to give up your child's life to openly admit his a Latter-day Saint?

My son voluntarily went to a place in the world on his mission where he could have faced harm for being a Mormon with a name tag. But it was his decision not mine to make.

Hypotheticals are so useless. In a situation where I was faced wtih hiding my identity or facing death I would do what the Spirit constrained me to do. I selfishly hope God prefers me as a worker than a martyr if that come to pass.

[Bernard Gui]

The victim has nothing to repent of. Christ will dry all tears, but even he can't make those tears to have never existed. Our bitterest trials are but of a small moment, and will give us experience, and will eventually work for our good. Probably not in this life, but in the next.

Can I hear an Amen? Amen!

[thesometimesaint]

My son voluntarily went to a place in the world on his mission where he could have faced harm for being a Mormon with a name tag. But it was his decision not mine to make.

Hypotheticals are so useless. In a situation where I was faced wtih hiding my identity or facing death I would do what the Spirit constrained me to do. I selfishly hope God prefers me as a worker than a martyr if that come to pass.

That was my point. It is not our choice to make for others. In the military you learn about "Strategic Retreat". Sometimes it is better to run away so you DO live to fight stronger another day. http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/treatment/retreat.htm

Any fool can die for a cause. It takes real guts to live for it.

[Bernard Gui]

I don't know if men have to do this, or perhaps I'm the only woman who has to do this, but I have to carry around in my head a scene and set of strategies of "What to do when I am raped". Do men have to do this? Do other women do this, or am I just weird? That's an actual question, I'd love to hear responses.

Our ward has sponsored several safety seminars for the women and young womenwith sheriffs and self-defense martial arts people. There are advocates for both extreme aggressive defense and passivity, or a combination of the two, depending on the situation. Seems to me, though, that in the thick of the chaos it would be hard to be contemplative about what to do. You are very wise to have strategies, God forbid you should ever need them.

And if I am hearing at church that I need to die for my virtue (as a teenage girl), then I need to add that into the strategy or scene at some point. It's not a theory or wishy washy analogy.

When did you hear this in church?

It's also strange to me, where we say that murder is the worst sin, and sexual sin is second in line--but we are trying to apply death (the first worst thing) to a sexual problem (the second worst thing). It's backwards!

Mormon says chastity and virtue are the most precious possession above all others. Does that include life? Just wondering....

Edited May 10, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[thesometimesaint]

Maidservant, on 09 May 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I don't know if men have to do this, or perhaps I'm the only woman who has to do this, but I have to carry around in my head a scene and set of strategies of "What to do when I am raped". Do men have to do this? Do other women do this, or am I just weird? That's an actual question, I'd love to hear responses.

Though not as common as the rape of women, men have been known to have been raped. Rape isn't always about physical strength, some women have more physical strength than some men, but it is always one of power. IE; If someone has the power to deny you a raise in salary, and uses that power to have sex with you. You have been raped whether you are a woman or a man.