Brooks Blames Church For Elizabeth Smarts Captivity

[Calm]

Mormon says chastity and virtue are the most precious possession above all others. Does that include life? Just wondering....

How are we defining "virtue" here.

What about charity, faith and hope? Should we look on them as "possessions" like "chastity" and "virtue" (are they part of the latter?) or something else? And if they are the former, then I start having some issues with placing chastity ahead of them and "virtue" depending on how it is defined.

[Senator]

For those people who may balk at the notion that virtue and chastity may be more important than physical life, please remember that sin leads to spiritual sickness and death.

Yes, but that's irrelevant given the context with which we are speaking of virtue and chastity.

[Questing Beast]

I'll readily confess that this story of Alma has always befuddled me. Let me just say that I'm very glad that the Spirit doesn't normally restrain the Oskar Schindlers of the world.

There is much in the BoM that befuddles. You have two choices as far as I can tell: either Joseph Smith's immature imagination was fecund enough to come up with a plausible setting for the BoM (and thus the befuddling inconsistencies of behavior and logic), or else the culture as presented was alien in its morality to much that we find offensive and even inexcusable....

[Questing Beast]

Going back over the thread to refresh my memory (it not being at its best today), I noticed I hadn't responded to this comment of yours after you were kind enough to add detail to your previous comment. I found it quite interesting and informative and I appreciate greatly when people are willing to share these kinds of personal details because it really does help me understand how people process beliefs and just life in general, which subject is one of the most important ones out there for us to examine in my opinion.

It also made me wondered if women can in general ever get to that point where they can create that self image that one isn't likely to be seen as a potential target of assault due to the inherent physical difference between men and women in the majority of cases where women will be at a significant disadvantage due to size and muscle mass...even trained women if surprised so that the man can grab them may not be able to free themselves, whereas a man would generally be more likely to be able to do so due to a closer physical build.

This is an interesting departure because it shows up the unlikelihood of resistance. Even a man would have been helpless with a knife at his throat as he was awakened. No amount of firearms in the Smart house would have averted the kidnapping, and therefore everything that happened would have still occurred. You can train your girls in shooting, encourage them to carry a handgun for self defense, and all of that is a good precaution but useless in a situation like Elizabeth Smart's. All you can do is your best, the rest is up to God.

However, it is as true as anything that, "God made men, but Sam Colt made them equal"....

[cinepro]

For those people who may balk at the notion that virtue and chastity may be more important than physical life, please remember that sin leads to spiritual sickness and death. And, keep in mind that to God, and by extension the leaders of his Church, all things are spiritual.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Just so I'm clear, are you saying you don't balk at the suggestion that a person should sacrifice their life when faced with a sexual assault? In other words, if they don't fight to the death, they have sacrificed their "virtue and chastity" because they didn't do everything they could and therefore there was some degree of consent?

[Calm]

This is an interesting departure because it shows up the unlikelihood of resistance. Even a man would have been helpless with a knife at his throat as he was awakened.

Now you have me wondering if most rapists of adults (where there might be a chance of physical resistance that is unlikely to occur in children) use weapons or not....rapes that included drugs are relatively common, I believe, but I don't remember hearing whether weapons were.

[Questing Beast]

Interesting, because weapons involved, brandished, are commonly how women are subdued. The threat of using them on the victims is one added level of power over them. Women who are first raped then killed are not usually killed without a weapon involved. Or am I mistaken about this assertion?...

[Calm]

This site claims 11% of rapes involve weapons:  http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

A different site gets more specific:

In rapes/sexual assaults involving strangers, weapons were known to be used in 20.3% of the incidents. Of these, 8.8% used a firearm (hand gun) and 11.5% used a knife. In rapes/sexual assaults involving nonstrangers, weapons were known to be used in 15% of the incidents. Of these, 4.2% used a firearm (hand gun); 5.4% used a knife or sharp object, and 2% used some other weapon. Of those rape/sexual assault victimizations using physical force, the offender was the first to use force in 87.1% of incidents. The victim was first to use force only 7.1% of the time.

http://www.nmcsap.org/statistics.html Edited May 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

Of women killed there is usually a weapon of some sort involved. Few want to add the charge of murder to that of rape.

[Calm]

Perhaps even more relevant to the discussion, from the previous link:

Self-Protective Measures

Of those rape/sexual assault incidents where the victim took self-protective measures, self-protective measures were taken slightly more against offenders who were nonstrangers (84.6%) than offenders who were strangers (77.1%).

Females were slightly more likely to take self-protective measures than males (82.5% vs. 72.6% respectively). Blacks and Whites were almost equally likely to take self-protective measures (88% vs. 80.5% respectively). All persons under age fifty were equally as likely to take self-protective measures (an average of 82.7% of the victimizations).

When self-protective measures were employed, victims were almost equally likely to resist or capture the offender (20.4%) as to persuade or appease the offender (19.5%). Victims more often scared or warned the offender (16.1%) than ran away or hid (11.4%). Victims were almost as likely to scream from pain and fear (8.2%) as they were to attack the offender without a weapon (9.3%). In less than 1% (.4%) of incidents did the victim attack the offender with a weapon.

Not surprisingly, male victims when compared to female victims were more likely to attack the offender without a weapon (12.6% vs. 7.7% respectively), and resist or capture the offender (23.9% vs. 17.2% respectively). They were less likely to run away or hide (14.7% to 18.1% respectively), but equally likely to try to appease or persuade the offender (12.7% vs. 13.7% respectively).

Fifty-five percent of the number of rape/sexual assault victimizations in which self-protective measures were employed by the victim resulted in helping the situation. Self-protective measures hurt the situation in 10.5% of victimizations. In 17.2% of the incidents the result neither helped nor hurt the situation, and in 7.7% of the incidents the situation was both helped and hurt.

In rape/sexual assault victimizations where measures were taken by someone other than the victim, it helped the situation 27.7% of the time. 14.9% of the time it hurt the situation; 38.4% of the time itneither helped nor hurt the situation, and 2% of the time it both helped and hurt the situation.

In cases where self-protective measures by the victim were helpful, 42.5% avoided injury or greater injury, 37.6% escaped, and 11.1% of the time the offender was scared off.

In cases where self-protective measures by the victims were harmful, no data is available for rape/sexual assault. For assault in general, 69.6% of the time, it made the offender angrier, more aggressive, 9.7% of the time it led to injury or greater injury, and 15.6% of the time it made the situation worse in other ways.

For general assault, there were no significant differences in sex, age, race, income and victim-offender relationship in the percent of victimizations in which victims sustained physical injury. No data specific to rape/sexual assault were available.

[teddyaware]

Good reference, thanks. (add-on: but again not one that talks about others having to die because of one making a stand...though I have no doubt this has taken place during Biblical times people being as twisted as they sometimes are)

Let's face it cal, it's a lot easier just talking about dying for a noble cause than it is to actually have to do so when an angonizing death at the hands of a bunch of sadistic fiends is staring you right in the face. Even so, it is something to think about considering there are many who have had to make that ultimate decision. One of those who consciously made that most dreadful and solemn choice to die for the truth is Abinadi. And so we read:

"7 And he (King Noah) said unto him: Abinadi, we have found an accusation against thee, and thou art worthy of death.

8 For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people.

9 Now Abinadi said unto him: I say unto you, I will not recall the words which I have spoken unto you concerning this people, for they are true; and that ye may know of their surety I have suffered myself that I have fallen into your hands.

10 Yea, and I will suffer even until death, and I will not recall my words, and they shall stand as a testimony against you. And if ye slay me ye will shed innocent blood, and this shall also stand as a witness against you at the last day." (Mosiah 14)

Edited May 10, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Let's face it cal, it's a lot easier just talking about dying for a noble cause than it is to actually have to do so when an angonizing death at the hands of a bunch of sadistic fiends is staring you right in the face

Just to be clear, you are not under the impression that I am the least bit arguing with you on this point, right? I am merely curious about whether there are scripture references for the other situation, not debating the importance and spiritual significance of the passages you have quoted to me. You don't need to convince me of anything here, I have always been aware of and accepting of the scriptural testimonies that are sealed in their own blood, so to speak.

[teddyaware]

Just to be clear, you are not under the impression that I am the least bit arguing with you on this point, right? I am merely curious about whether there are scripture references for the other situation, not debating the importance and spiritual significance of the passages you have quoted to me. You don't need to convince me of anything here, I have always been aware of and accepting of the scriptural testimonies that are sealed in their own blood, so to speak.

I thought we were having a friendly chat. I only cited Abinadi because in light of the recent flavor of this discussion. I thought it would be interesting to contemplate the prophet's final words to Noah. To me, it's always intensely interesting to listen to and contemplate the last words of a man who knows he's about to die, especially when that man is a courageous prophet of God who could have escaped death simply by saying the "right words."

[Calm]

Just making sure we are on the same page...looks like we are.

Since one can't tell tone of voice all that well (unless one uses emotionally laden words, which when one is having a friendly chat, one doesn't usually do), it can be hard to read when something is added as an interesting tidbit as opposed to a challenging tidbit or something else that requires a response to.

Edited May 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

Just making sure we are on the same page...looks like we are.

Since one can't tell tone of voice all that well (unless one uses emotionally laden words, which when one is having a friendly chat, one doesn't usually do), it can be hard to read when something is added as an interesting tidbit as opposed to a challenging tidbit or something else that requires a response to.

''

Thanks. Sometimes my postings are just a snapshot of a moment in time within my own stream of consciousness. Because some things are of interest to me in the moment, I sometimes presume they'll be of interest to others as well. Don't take me too seriously. I was once an aspiring comedy writer and, quite honestly, I'm laughing or chortling a good third of the time.

Edited May 11, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Thanks. Sometimes my postings are just a snapshot of a moment in time within my own stream of consciousness.

Mine too. Especially if I've been alone all day with no one to talk to...

[teddyaware]

Mine too. Especially if I've been alone all day with no one to talk to...

Cal, From your postings, it's very obvious you're a very intelligent, insightful, compassionate and fair-minded gal. I hope to take after you -- except for tha gal part.

[Calm]

Cal, From your postings, it's very obvious you're a very intelligent, insightful, compassionate and fair-minded gal. I hope to take after you -- except for tha gal part.

Thank you...and I agree that it would probably be a good idea not to strive to emulate me in the feminine department.

[bluebell]

The scriptures are filled with instances where the consequences of sin are presented, at times through analogies (I have cited several in this thread), and not immediately followed by an atonement addendum. Are you seriously suggesting that the scriptures have lost proper perspective and a sense of proportion?

Just as we are not God, neither are we prophets of God. To much harm is done by people who think they are.

To me, the scriptures, along with the Spirit, are what we saints use to gage whether our perspective and sense of proportion is proper--at least that is what I have used to determine in this case who may or may not need to get a grip.

I don't believe that the spirit would tell anyone to do anything as snarky as respond to a difference of opinion with the line 'get a grip'. I'm pretty sure that's all you Wade, and has no connection to anything spiritual at all.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You're welcome.

[ERayR]

Of women killed there is usually a weapon of some sort involved. Few want to add the charge of murder to that of rape.

I really don't think that someone committing rape is worried about breaking some other law too. I am truly puzzled that someone really thinks that passing a law is really going to stop someone from committing an action.

Edited May 11, 2013 by ERayR

[wenglund]

Yes, but that's irrelevant given the context with which we are speaking of virtue and chastity.

That may be true in a myopic sense.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Just as we are not God, neither are we prophets of God. To much harm is done by people who think they are.

You previously said, "anyone who attempts to teach about the consequences of sin without an 'atonement addendum' is the person who has lost proper perspective and sense of proportion." The word "anyone" would include God and the prophets.

Have you changed your mind? Are you now making an exception in the case of God and the prophets? if so, can you please explain why they haven't lost perspective, and yet a Sunday School or youth instructor following the lesson manual and maybe adding an analogy, has lost perspective, when doing the very same thing? Can you explain why it wouldn't be problematic for the youth being taught a certain way by God and the prophets, but it would be problematic to be taught the same way by a Church instructor?

I don't believe that the spirit would tell anyone to do anything as snarky as respond to a difference of opinion with the line 'get a grip'. I'm pretty sure that's all you Wade, and has no connection to anything spiritual at all.

If you doubt that the Spirit can inspire snarkiness, I have a number of scriptures to which I could point you--one of my favorites being 'reprove betimes with sharpness." But, let me be clear, I think you are a wonderful person with a big heart and an admirable desire to do what is right and best. I don't want that prevailing sentiment to be overshadowed by my minor perception that you might have lost some perspective on this single point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Are principles like freedom and liberty worth more than human life?

Am I alone in my willingness to risk my life to stop a rapist from raping?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Senator]

That may be true in a myopic sense.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well, since we are speaking about ideas "in context"......

[Senator]

Are principles like freedom and liberty worth more than human life?

Yes, however from scripture it appears that deferred justice for infractions of such, are also more important than human life.

Am I alone in my willingness to risk my life to stop a rapist from raping?

Yes, you are one of a kind, Wade