Thelema And Mormonism.

[Tsuzuki]

So he is the sole interpreter but he doesn't understand it himself OR he is saying that he is not actually the sole interpreter but each for himself should interpret it.

He's not the sole interpreter. Have you not been paying attention at all?

To me, it is a mass of confusion, to coin a phrase!

Now that's the kind of guy I want to follow as a religious leader! Yessiree!

He never wanted followers, either. Be your own leader.

You know I hate to bring out the old "S" word here but wasn't it good old Satan who could look directly at the sun and say it wasn't shining?

That's what you seem to be doing right now.

I may not be your totally traditional Mormon, but Mormonism presents a coherent whole. All I am seeing here is contradiction and obfuscation.

Maybe I am not understanding you well but all I am seeing here are contradictions

You are not understanding at all. You are putting your own obsession with obedience into this incredibly simple concept and tripping yourself up. "Do what thou wilt" does not mean that you have to fight everyone else's will. It does not mean you can't employ your will in the service of another. It does not mean "do whatever you want, and to hell with the consequences."

What it does mean is that you are your own agent, you are responsible for your own actions, and even when in the service of others, you are ultimately free. "Do what thou wilt" means to find your purpose in life and make everything you do be in accord with that purpose.

[MormonMason]

Each for himself must approach the texts of Crowley for understanding of the meaning and none else. Crowley interprets by the influence of Aiwass and each for himself must come to Crowley for the meaning. One must not seek the interpretations of others or those we come up with ourselves. One must each for himself approach the "Book of the Law" via the interpretation of Crowley. No study groups to "divine" the meaning were supposed to have been instituted, by Crowley's own instruction. Those in his day who did so were looked upon in a bad way. Today's Thelema may come from the same root but it is not your mother's or grandmother's Thelema. Today, apparently, one can dispense with Crowley as much as is necessary to assuage the conscience and to justify the level of one's participation. Interesting, no?

Edited May 14, 2013 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

I see an echo of the teachings of Jesus Christ in Thelema, but I would still view Thelema as a false religion that is diametrically opposed to the gospel of Jesus. The main reason is that it supplants the power and glory of God, the Atonement, and the purpose of life with a shadow of truths taught by Jesus. I say this with some degree of trepidation because I prefer to think that all truth comes from God and I am willing to acknowledge that all truth leads to God. However, I also acknowledge that some religions are not created by God, but their sole purpose is to lead individuals away from God. What I understand of Thelema is that it takes true principles and twists them out of kilter; the sound nice to the ear, but it excludes the whole purpose of our being and how we become like our Father and that is Jesus Christ.

It also rejects the concept of a dying and rising God and the need thereof. The atonement is absolutely essential to theosis. That is a cardinal tenet of Mormonism, which tenet Thelema opposes. Thus, on that ground alone (there are other grounds but this is foremost) Thelema and Mormonism are incompatible. Yet, there are those who think they can divinize themselves. Of course, Thelema now looks like it has been so changed around so much that anyone can interpret anything however anyone likes, in spite of Crowley's protestations to the contrary.

[mfbukowski]

Of course, Thelema now looks like it has been so changed around so much that anyone can interpret anything however anyone likes, in spite of Crowley's protestations to the contrary.

That's the impression I am getting too.

[Tsuzuki]

I've pretty much said everything I have to say. People can draw their own conclusions. I'll just restate that Thelema hasn't changed, at its core it's compatible with Mormonism, and MormonMason still hasn't provided any evidence for his claim otherwise. To be honest, I'm kind of finished taking his posts seriously.

[Storm Rider]

I've pretty much said everything I have to say. People can draw their own conclusions. I'll just restate that Thelema hasn't changed, at its core it's compatible with Mormonism, and MormonMason still hasn't provided any evidence for his claim otherwise. To be honest, I'm kind of finished taking his posts seriously.

Saying something, repeating it, does not make it so or any more correct. I understand your desire to draw comparisons, but a naked comparison without also emphasizing priority or importance is misleading. It is impossible to discuss the Church of Jesus Christ's theology or doctrines without a firm understanding of how important Jesus Christ is to our whole system of belief; he is foundational, the key stone of our religion and faith. This is the same criticism I have with most other Christian churches criticism of the Church. They so quickly overlook our belief in Christ and attack tertiary issues. It is an error of the highest order to so blithely ignore the importance of Jesus in favor of pet doctrines that cannot compare to him in importance or priority.

[Tsuzuki]

So, is golf incompatible with Mormonism because it doesn't have Jesus in it?

[Storm Rider]

So, is golf incompatible with Mormonism because it doesn't have Jesus in it?

I don't know; are you drawing a comparison?

[MormonMason]

From the "Book of the Law"

AL III.50: "Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!"

AL III.51: "With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross."

Crowley's "Final Answer" concerning the meaning (bold emphasis mine):

We are to consider carefully the particular attach [sic] of Heru Ra Ha against each of these 'gods' or prophets; for though they be, or represent, the Magi of the past, the curse of their Grade must consume them.

Thus it is the eyes of 'Jesus' -- his point of view -- that must be destroyed; and this point of view is wrong because of his Magical Gesture of self-sacrifice.

One must not for a moment suppose that this verse supports the historicity of 'Jesus.' 'Jesus' is not, and never was, a man; but he was a 'god,' just as a bundle of old rags and a kerosene tin on a bush may be a 'god.' There is a man-made idea, built of ignorance, fear, and meanness, for the most part, which we call 'Jesus,' and which has been tricked out from time to time with various gauds from Paganism, and Judaism.

The subject of 'Jesus' is, most unfortunately, too extensive for a note; it is treated fully in my book 888.

Self-sacrifice is wrong and his was a magical gesture. Jesus is a man-made god and did not exist as a man. Jesus has no historicity. All this is the intended understanding of the meaning of these portions of "The Book of the Law." By the way, I am looking at photos of the original manuscript of the Great Beast 666's (and, yes, Crowley called himself this and really believed that he actually was the beast of the Apocalypse) "Book of the Law." I need not waste time describing in detail how incompatible with Mormonism this text and explanatory commentary are. Each reader who is not in a state of denial can see this for him/herself.

But, don't take my word for it. No one can take me too seriously.

[Tsuzuki]

From the "Book of the Law"

Crowley's "Final Answer" concerning the meaning (bold emphasis mine):

Self-sacrifice is wrong and his was a magical gesture. Jesus is a man-made god and did not exist as a man. Jesus has no historicity. All this is the intended understanding of the meaning of these portions of "The Book of the Law." By the way, I am looking at photos of the original manuscript of the Great Beast 666's (and, yes, Crowley called himself this and really believed that he actually was the beast of the Apocalypse) "Book of the Law." I need not waste time describing in detail how incompatible with Mormonism this text and explanatory commentary are. Each reader who is not in a state of denial can see this for him/herself.

But, don't take my word for it. No one can take me too seriously.

This was Crowley's opinion, but his "final answer" was the short comment about each deciding for themselves, so while Crowley's commentaries are helpful in providing insight into what Crowley thought, it's not something that Thelemites have to conform to. Personally, the first thing that came to my mind when I read that whole series of passages in the Book of the Law was the Zen concept of Killing the Buddha (look it up if you're unfamiliar with it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_Law#The_Comment

"Based on several passages, including: 'My scribe Ankh-af-na-khonsu, the priest of the princes, shall not in one letter change this book; but lest there be folly, he shall comment thereupon by the wisdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit' (AL I:36), Crowley felt compelled to interpret AL in writing. He wrote two large sets of commentaries where he attempted to decipher each line.

However, he was not satisfied with these attempts. In 1912, he prepared AL and his current comments on it for publication in The Equinox, I(7). He recalls in his confessions (p. 674) that he thought the existing commentary was 'shamefully meagre and incomplete.' He later explains, 'I had stupidly supposed this Comment to be a scholarly exposition of the Book, an elucidation of its obscurities and a demonstration of its praeterhuman origin. I understand at last that this idea is nonsense. The Comment must be an interpretation of the Book intelligible to the simplest minds, and as practical as the Ten Commandments.' Moreover, this Comment should be arrived at 'inspirationally,' as the Book itself had been.

Years later in 1925 while in Tunis, Tunisia, Crowley received his inspiration. He published the Comment in the Tunis edition of AL, of which only 11 copies were printed, and what was to become called simply The Comment (which is also called the Short Comment or Tunis Comment), and signed it as Ankh-f-n-khonsu (lit. 'He Lives in Khonsu'—a historical priest who lived in Thebes in the 26th dynasty, associated with the Stele of Revealing). It advises the reader that the 'study' of the Book is forbidden and states that those who 'discuss the contents' are to be shunned. It also suggests that the book be destroyed after first reading.

Crowley later tasked his friend and fellow O.T.O. member Louis Wilkinson with preparing an edited version of Crowley's commentaries which was published some time after Crowley's death as

The Law is for All

.

"

By the way, I'm still not taking you seriously, but I thought I'd address this for any lurkers.

[Tsuzuki]

Official FAQ:

http://oto-usa.org/s...tic/OTO FAQ.pdf

Is Ordo Templi Orientis Satanic or anti-Christian?

O.T.O. makes no claims or representations to be either Satanic or anti-Christian. We find that these characterizations serve no real purpose in describing what we are about, or our vision for humanity. Rather than being anti-Christian, we are in fact pro-Thelema: we support the Thelemic ideals of freedom of religious and personal self-expression; emancipation from superstition and social oppression; and the development of a world view which supports and encourages the age-old vision of the Universal Brotherhood of mankind.

Is O.T.O. a religion?

No. O.T.O. is a religious organization and magical fraternity that works within the wider context of the spiritual philosophy known as Thelema, which technically could be considered a religion.

Do I have to believe in some particular dogma to join?

If you decide to pursue full membership, as a I°, you will be stating that you accept the Book of the Law as written, without wishing to change it. Even in the Minerval degree, you will be making a commitment in the strongest terms to uphold the ideals of freedom set forth in the Book of the Law.

However, how you interpret the Book of the Law and its significance is largely up to you.

I'm a [buddhist|Wiccan|Christian|Druid|etc.]. Can I stay one if I join the O.T.O.?

O.T.O. does not impose restrictions on members' beliefs, or on their affiliations with other organizations that do not attempt to infringe on the rights and operation of O.T.O. However, higher-degree members are expected to avoid allowing their participation in other groups to unduly limit the time and energy they can devote to their O.T.O. obligations.

[MormonMason]

You badly misunderstand Crowley wherein he uses the phrase "each for himself" in that phrase. Each for himself must come to and consult Crowley's writings for the interpretation of the meanings rather than going to others or forming study groups for their interpretations. It by no means enjoins making things up for yourself as you go along. That you think it does speaks volumes regarding your understanding thereof. You focus on the end of the sentence rather than on the sentence as a whole.

Additionally, the Comment that I cited above actually is Crowley's final and only word on the actual, intended meaning of the passage you so badly want to interpret away via private interpretation. "The Comment" appended to the "Book of the Law" concerns the whole of the "Book of the Law" and not the specifics. For those you must seek, each one for himself, the writings of Crowley commenting thereon. The passage means what it says and is thus incompatible with Mormonism.

Also, note this following from the website quote you posted:

However, higher-degree members are expected to avoid allowing their participation in other groups to unduly limit the time and energy they can devote to their O.T.O. obligations.

In other words, if your religion has meetings during times of your Lodge meetings, or takes up time enough to interfere with your commitment to O.T.O. in the higher degrees therein, your religion takes the backseat. At least they are honest enough to admit that. That, by the way, also makes it incompatible with Mormonism and, specifically, with a particular covenant made in the LDS temple ceremony. If you think hard enough, perhaps you will remember it (if you have attended the temple, that is).

It also is so very different than it is in Freemasonry. In Freemasonry, your duty to God takes precedence over your activity in the Fraternity. Some do the opposite of what the Fraternity teaches on this matter but, officially, duties to God, family, and self take precedence. Not so with O.T.O. in reality.

As an aside, there is no god Hadit in any Egyptian pantheon of which I am aware. I bring this up because it plays such an important part relating to the "Stela of Revealment" and an entire chapter of the "Book of the Law." It is a misreading of a city name (we know it is a city name because of the determinative for a walled city in the name) and meaning of the sentence in the upper register of the Stele.

Behdet is also called Edfu, and the name Behdet carries the marker for a city name, which is what English speakers would see as a circle enclosing what looks like an English 'X' character. What the inscription actually says about the winged disk under Nut is that it is "Great God (and) Lord (of) Heaven (and of) Behdet." It is "Horus of Behdet" to which the inscription makes reference, not some imaginary being from a drug-induced 'revelation' called Hadit. (And, he alternately was wired on Cocaine and high on Heroin all during his honeymoon, which also was the time of the receipt of his revelation in the Cairo area).

Edited May 15, 2013 by MormonMason

[Tsuzuki]

You badly misunderstand Crowley wherein he uses the phrase "each for himself" in that phrase. Each for himself must come to and consult Crowley's writings for the interpretation of the meanings rather than going to others or forming study groups for their interpretations. It by no means enjoins making things up for yourself as you go along. That you think it does speaks volumes regarding your understanding thereof. You focus on the end of the sentence rather than on the sentence as a whole.

Additionally, the Comment that I cited above actually is Crowley's final and only word on the actual, intended meaning of the passage you so badly want to interpret away via private interpretation. "The Comment" appended to the "Book of the Law" concerns the whole of the "Book of the Law" and not the specifics. For those you must seek, each one for himself, the writings of Crowley commenting thereon. The passage means what it says and is thus incompatible with Mormonism.

Well, then I guess every single Thelemite badly misunderstands Crowley, and you're the only one who gets him. I congratulate you.

Also, note this following from the website quote you posted:

However, higher-degree members are expected to avoid allowing their participation in other groups to unduly limit the time and energy they can devote to their O.T.O. obligations.

In other words, if your religion has meetings during times of your Lodge meetings, or takes up time enough to interfere with your commitment to O.T.O. in the higher degrees therein, your religion takes the backseat. At least they are honest enough to admit that. That, by the way, also makes it incompatible with Mormonism and, specifically, with a particular covenant made in the LDS temple ceremony. If you think hard enough, perhaps you will remember it (if you have attended the temple, that is).

Ha. I thought you'd latch onto that. That's actually not what it means, and there are plenty of higher-degree members of the O.T.O. who are also leaders in other completely unrelated organizations. They just have good time management skills. Being a higher-degree member typically means you have leadership responsibilities and all that comes with that. If you are the Lodge Master, you should probably be at the Lodge meetings. You can always reschedule them if you have to.

It also is so very different than it is in Freemasonry. In Freemasonry, your duty to God takes precedence over your activity in the Fraternity. Some do the opposite of what the Fraternity teaches on this matter but, officially, duties to God, family, and self take precedence. Not so with O.T.O. in reality.

No, it is exactly like in Freemasonry.

As an aside, there is no god Hadit in any Egyptian pantheon of which I am aware. I bring this up because it plays such an important part relating to the "Stela of Revealment" and an entire chapter of the "Book of the Law." It is a misreading of a city name (we know it is a city name because of the determinative for a walled city in the name) and meaning of the sentence in the upper register of the Stele.

Behdet is also called Edfu, and the name Behdet carries the marker for a city name, which is what English speakers would see as a circle enclosing what looks like an English 'X' character. What the inscription actually says about the winged disk under Nut is that it is "Great God (and) Lord (of) Heaven (and of) Behdet." It is "Horus of Behdet" to which the inscription makes reference, not some imaginary being from a drug-induced 'revelation' called Hadit. (And, he alternately was wired on Cocaine and high on Heroin all during his honeymoon, which also was the time of the receipt of his revelation in the Cairo area).

Good to know. Thanks!

[mfbukowski]

Official FAQ:

http://oto-usa.org/s...tic/OTO FAQ.pdf

Is Ordo Templi Orientis Satanic or anti-Christian?

O.T.O. makes no claims or representations to be either Satanic or anti-Christian. We find that these characterizations serve no real purpose in describing what we are about, or our vision for humanity. Rather than being anti-Christian, we are in fact pro-Thelema: we support the Thelemic ideals of freedom of religious and personal self-expression; emancipation from superstition and social oppression; and the development of a world view which supports and encourages the age-old vision of the Universal Brotherhood of mankind.

Is O.T.O. a religion?

No. O.T.O. is a religious organization and magical fraternity that works within the wider context of the spiritual philosophy known as Thelema, which technically could be considered a religion.

Do I have to believe in some particular dogma to join?

If you decide to pursue full membership, as a I°, you will be stating that you accept the Book of the Law as written, without wishing to change it. Even in the Minerval degree, you will be making a commitment in the strongest terms to uphold the ideals of freedom set forth in the Book of the Law.

However, how you interpret the Book of the Law and its significance is largely up to you.

I'm a [buddhist|Wiccan|Christian|Druid|etc.]. Can I stay one if I join the O.T.O.?

O.T.O. does not impose restrictions on members' beliefs, or on their affiliations with other organizations that do not attempt to infringe on the rights and operation of O.T.O. However, higher-degree members are expected to avoid allowing their participation in other groups to unduly limit the time and energy they can devote to their O.T.O. obligations.

"Thou shalt not surely die, but shall be as the Gods, knowing good and evil!"

Edited May 15, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Nathair/|\]

‘Analogies and Correspondences’ by Richard Cavendish

‘Magic is sometimes said to be a primitive form of science, but it is very much nearer to poetry than to even the most rudimentary science, and like poetry, it relies extensively on the use of analogy.

The whole magical universe itself is built on the analogy of the human body. Imitative magic, which depends on the principle of analogy, the law of like to like, is only one more example of this tendency.

Magic makes use of all kinds of associations and connections between things whose relationship to each other is a matter of similarities and parallels.

Many of the important magical analogies and connections are not natural to most people’s minds today, but have been handed down by tradition from the remote past. This enhances their value for occultists, who believe that humanity was a great deal wiser in these matters in the remote past than it is now’.

Source: ‘The Black Arts, a Concise History of Witchcraft, Demonology, Astrology, Alchemy, and Other Mystical Practices Throughout the Ages’ by Richard Cavendish

[Nathair/|\]

The Book Of The In-Laws

(A parody of Crowley's The Book of the Law)

1. 
   Hi! the manipulation of a Nut.
   
2. 
   Company of heaven exposed; film at eleven.
   
3. 
   Every Tom, ****, and Harry is a Star. Big Deal.
   
4. 
   Every number is infinite; fire thy accountant.
   
5. 
   I'd like a volunteer from the audience at this point-- you, the Warrior Lord of Thebes in the front row.
   
6. 
   I've Hadit up to here.
   
7. 
   Attention K-Mart Shoppers! It is revealed to !Who*vast? the minister of Har-Po-Marx.
   
8. 
   The Khabs is in the Khu, right next to the peanut butter.
   
9. 
   Worship thou the Khabs, and the Khu will take care of itself.
   
10. 
    Let my servants be few and secret; they shall have enough problems without publicity.
    
11. 
    These are fools that men adore; for example, Vanna White comes to mind.
    
12. 
    Come forth with a fifth and take thy fill of Old Overcoat; thou shalt see stars!
    
13. 
    I am above you and in you. I am behind you and beside you. I am hiding behind the curtains. I know when you are sleeping, I see when you're awake. I know if you feel joy or woe so feel joy for goodness sake.
    
14. 
    There once was a Goddess, Nuit, Who dated a God named Hadit. When Ankh-af-na-khonsu Saw what they were up to He shouted "Hail Ra-hoor-khuit!"
    
15. 
    You may already have won the priesthood of infinite space, a Winnebago, all power for your wife, or one of 663 other valuable prizes in this Aeon's Prophecy Clearing House Giveaway!
    
16. 
    For he is sunburned, and she is a lunatic. He plays with matches, and she wanders around in the dark.
    
17. 
    But for you, no such luck.
    
18. 
    Look out! There's a snake on your head!
    
19. 
    Oh, bend over, and I shall drive thee home!
    
20. 
    Say the secret word and the Dove shall drop down.
    
21. 
    If the God and the Adorer call, say unto them that I am out of the office; they shall not see me. For I and my Lord Hadit shall be in a meeting verily until the end of time. My Prophet shall call their Prophet.
    
22. 
    Now, therefore, I have an unlisted phone number, which shall be revealed to my prophet when at last he ceaseth making obscene calls. I am Infinite Space, and billions and billions of stars, yet modesty remains my best character trait. Let no difference be made between any one thing and any other thing; in this way wilt thou simplify thine Inventory Control.
    
23. 
    But whoso maketh sense of all this, let him explain it to me as soon as possible.
    
24. 
    I am a Nut, and my number is up.
    
25. 
    Divide, add, multiply, and extract square roots. There will be a quiz at the end of the Aeon.
    
26. 
    Then saith the Prophet and the Loss: Where the Hell am I, what am I on, and where can I get more? Then she answered him, her neon-hued body dangling a wide variety of love beads and leather thongs, saying: Like, wow! Everything is everywhere and real, like, fun, for sure! Totally!
    
27. 
    Then the Priest answered and said unto her, kissing her lovely brows, running his hand lightly along her thigh, nibbling on her earlobes, and unbuttoning her blouse: "Uh..right. What was the question? Mmmph."
    
28. 
    Two breathed the light, faint and faery, of the stars, then asphyxiated.
    
29. 
    For I am divided by zero for the chance of confusion.
    
30. 
    This is the curriculum of Math; that the pain of long division is nothing, and the agony of Calculus, all.
    
31. 
    Screw you all! I've got mine, Jack.
    
32. 
    Obey my prophet! Send $20 in cash to Me! Make eleven copies of this Book, placing thy Name therein, and disperse them to others as thou wilt. Break not the Chain, and thy prosperity shall be without bounds. Would I lie to you?
    
33. 
    Then the priest passed out, muttering: Heard any good ordeals, rituals, or laws lately?
    
34. 
    But she said: The ordeals are none of thy business; the rituals shall be half unknown and half published by Francis King; the Law I'll give to anyone willing to haul it away.
    
35. 
    Surprise! THIS is the Book of the In-Laws! I'll bet you never guessed, huh? You probably thought this was just some ordinary, run-of-the-mill prophetic work dictated by a praeternatural Intelligence.
    
36. 
    My secretary In-a-Gadda-da-Vida shall not edit this Book, howsoever badly it may be needed. He may comment thereupon by the wisdom of Pa-Ra-Keet. Thus shall plausible deniability be established.
    
37. 
    Also the Mazdas and the Celicas, the Oh-Yeahs and the Cowabungas, the Fafnil and Zermatroz, the work of the Wand, the Pantacle, the Dagger, but not the Cup; these shall ye teach at weekend seminars.
    
38. 
    He must teach; but he may make wild the parties.
    
39. 
    The word of the In-Laws is PASADENA.
    
40. 
    Who calls us Pasadenites will do no wrong, if he but drives through the city. For there are therein Three Grades: the Little Old Lady, and the Techie and the Man of Suburbia. Possession shall be nine tenths of the Law.
    
41. 
    The Formula of Sin is Opposite over Hypotenuse. Oh Man, believe not thy wife when she says she has a headache! There must be fifty-six ways to leave thy Lover! There is no bond that can unite the divided but Krazy Glue; accept no substitutes. Darn them! Darn them anyway! Ah, heck.
    
42. 
    Practice bondage in groups; thou hast the right to remain silent.
    
43. 
    Do that, and await to speak unto thy lawyer.
    
44. 
    For the word 'unassuaged' is every way mispronounced.
    
45. 
    After all, nobody's Perfect.
    
46. 
    The Key to this Law is really nothing special. 61 the Jews call it, or 58 wholesale for family. I call it eight, twelve, three point one four -- whatever I want to. I am a God, after all.
    
47. 
    They have the half, and its the good half, too. Pull yourself together, and tell them to get lost!
    
48. 
    My Prophet looks out for Number One, One, One.
    
49. 
    We regret to announce that all ordeals, words, and signs have been canceled due to unstable theological conditions in the East. Let Asar be with Isa, as long as they cause no trouble. I don't care; it's not my problem.
    
50. 
    Here's a tip on how to run this scam. There are three cons you can use. The gross shall be burned, the fine shall be soaked, and the lofty chosen ones worked over. Thus ye have plans and schemes, and nobody shall know what hit them!
    
51. 
    There are two doors to one townhouse; the floor of that townhouse has not been vacuumed for months; dirty clothes and stacks of old newspapers are there, and the odor of cat food. Let him enter in turn the two doors, having given 24 hours advance notice to the tenants as required by Law. Will he not sink? Damn. Aargh! If thy handyman sink, the dry rot is worse than I thought. But there are ways and means. Be goodly therefore, or betterly if possible: go to parties; eat cream puff sundaes, and drink generic champagne and beers that foam; play strip poker using a Tarot deck! But be sure to invite Me.
    
52. 
    If the layout be botched; if thou neglectest thine proofreading, saying: Who gives a damn; or saying, Let's order a pizza; then shall Pa-Ra-Keet smite thee, and thy pepperoni shall breed pestilence.
    
53. 
    Believe me, this will make my sister feel much better. But remember, even though you think you're such hot stuff, it shall not help thee in Court. Have fun while you still can; Me too! Me Too!
    
54. 
    Thou shalt be graded on content, spelling and grammar.
    
55. 
    Thy work shall serve as Papyri Ani.
    
56. 
    Expect it not from the East or West, but watch out for the South. Argh! All reasonable offers are accepted, and all answers correct, save only that some are stupider than others; solve the first half of the equation, get partial credit. But thou art still wholly in the dark.
    
57. 
    Go outside, for God's sake! Love in the raw, love under water! But be careful; there are love and love. There is the dove, and there is a can of whipped cream, a great deal of rope, and cooperative sheep. Choose ye well! He, my toady, has chosen, knowing the House Rules, which are admittedly confusing. The galley proofs of my book look okay, but is not the Star; I think it's a squashed bug. Leave it in; it will keep people guessing.
    
58. 
    I give unusual; punctuation while, in life, upon death: full stops. Not commas, nor do I demand proofreading
    
59. 
    My incense is of Chanel No. 5 and tapioca; and there are no preservatives therein, because the Washington Monument is exactly 555 feet tall.
    
60. 
    I can count to 11, more than most of those who are with us. The White Five Pointed Star, with a "T" in the middle, and the "T" is red. My color is black and white in the basic configuration, but red, green and blue are seen of those who buy the graphics display adapter. Also I have a high resolution option for them who pay through the nose.
    
61. 
    But to love me is to know me; if, under the night stars in the desert, thou presently freezeth thy *** off before me, invoking me out of pure desperation, thou shalt come a little to lie in a poorly insulated sleeping bag. For one bonfire wilt thou be willing to give all; but whoso ignites one juniper twig shall be arrested by Park Rangers within an hour. Ye shall gather junk food and suntan oil; ye shall wear dark glasses, ye shall wish ye were at the beach. I charge you earnestly to come before me carrying a ridiculously heavy backpack. Pale or puce, Libertarian or libertine, I who am without good taste desire you. Put on the wings, and you'll look just like a chicken!
    
62. 
    Every time I see you I shall whine "Me too! Me Too!", reminding thee strongly of thy little sister, and thy heart shall burn with annoyance.
    
63. 
    Sing the rapturous love song to me, or at least hum a few bars of "Aleister's Restaurant":
    
    
    You can do anything thou wilt, at Aleister's Restaurant;
    
    
    You can do anything thou wilt, at Aleister's Restaurant;
    
    
    Just drop by, we're in Cefalu,
    
    
    Later on today we'll have a Mass for Nu;
    
    
    You can do anything thou wilt, at Aleister's Restaurant.

    
    

64. 
    I am an airhead who uses too much makeup in the evening.
    
65. 
    Me Too! Me Too!
    
66. 
    The Manipulation of a Nut is at an end. Tune in tomorrow for more excitement -- same BAPH time, same BAPH channeling.
    

[inquiringmind]

Nope, I do not mean the Gnostic Mass, or what used to be known as the Gnostic Catholic Mass. I mean actual Black Mass, as in Satanic Black Mass. Several lines in that third chapter are nearly identical to phrases someone I know heard in such rituals. I have heard many a Satanist say similar to the same things.

I get that people involved with Thelema want to each interpret the text for him/herself, but whatever happened to Crowley's own insistence that he and he alone has right to interpret the text for his followers? Has that now changed in the years following when I first studied this group?

You seriously were not aware that Crowley was a cocaine addict and that he was a lifelong heroin addict who also experimented with various hallucinogenic drugs? See the various biographies written about him as well as his own novel based upon his actual earlier life. (Where the real fiction is, is that he was able to be cured of his addictions by use of magick, so be forewarned because he wasn't cured and died an addict). These books will tell you the information you seek.

Recall that he was heavily using both substances to the point of hallucinations, as well as taking maintenance doses to keep from going into withdrawal, during his honeymoon. It was during this honeymoon period that he wrote the "Book of the Law." Compare the timelines. Being under the heavy influence of cocaine and heroin is quite a bit different than being hyped up on caffeine. In addition, the very "Book of the Law" enjoins the use of hallucinogens in worship and so forth, also a violation of Church policy and doctrine. The "Book of the Law" is by no means compatible with LDS teaching and promotes ideas contrary to sound teaching in the Church.

You mean aside from it being a violation of official Church belief and policy?

Go here and read paragraph 21.4.8 and what it says about occult affiliation, practice and discussion. Talk to some General Authorities and ask them how the Church views the use of sexual magic such as O.T.O. promotes. Read the Bible and the Book of Mormon to see what they say about use of "magics" and other such arts.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

I don't see how what Crowely taught could be remotely compatible with anything remotely Christian.

[Tsuzuki]

Full Gnostic Mass video is out for anyone who wants to critique it for anything that might prevent a Mormon from participating in it.

 

[bjw]

Full Gnostic Mass video is out for anyone who wants to critique it for anything that might prevent a Mormon from participating in it.

Did anyone else on here watch it? I did. I noticed a few similarities from both Mormonism as well as some Masonic groups I'm in.

Some of the signs seem similar to the due guards and signs in masonry, as well as the way some are done in the temple. The eucharist at the end, while similar to the sacrament, seems more like the bread and wine meal in some of the higher Scottish Rite degrees. It seems like it probably borrows a lot from the kabalah, hence the similarities. While I don't see anything specific from this ceremony alone that would prevent a Mormon from participating any more than masonry would, I am curious as to what others on here that may have seen it might think.

Edited April 19, 2014 by bjw

[The Nehor]

Holy thread necromancy Batman.

[bjw]

Holy thread necromancy Batman.

The thread had been dormant for awhile but the video was just posted by the OP 2 days ago, so I thought I would respond since nobody else has yet. I found it pretty interesting.

[Tsuzuki]

It seems like it probably borrows a lot from the kabalah, hence the similarities.

One thread that runs through the Gnostic Mass is a symbolic ascending of the Tree of Life, which the entire temple is patterned after.

 

http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/The_Gnostic_Mass

http://hermetic.com/jones/on-the-formula-of-the-gnostic-mass.html

Edited April 20, 2014 by Tsuzuki

[HiJolly]

Tsuzuki - Fun thread. Thanks for the OP, and the ensuing fun. Also, good to hear from you bjw, too.

[why me]

This philosophy of men becoming Gods scares me because to me it is what Lucifer wanted A & E to do in the garden. They chose to follow the devil. Maybe it is a sin to believe we're to become Gods. Maybe it's false info. What if we aren't supposed to believe in that and we LDS and apparently others are not going to make it. This has been a deterrent for me to fully get back in the game. Those picketers outside during conference time yelling that our church is of the devil, is this where that stems from?

I think that you need to stop listening to picketers outside the temple grounds. Maybe they are of the devil. In John 10:34 it mentions it. Of course all faiths have their own interpretation of that verse. You just need to decide what faith you support. If you think that the EV got it right (of course they are many EV faiths out there) then you have to go with them. You are being torn in too many directions at this moment. But you seem to side with the EVs on most occasions, especially when they interpret Mormonism. I look at all Protestantism as a protest against Catholicism. So, I can't support any form of Protestantism regardless how sweet their words are.

If you think that the church of jesus Christ of latter day saints may be of the devil then you don't know this church very well. The church of satan is much different.

It all comes down to the book of Mormon. If that book is true, if that book is what joseph smith claimed it to be, then all the rest should fall into place. If 12 people lied about it when they saw the plates and testified of them and when certain people had heavenly visitations and never denied their testimony and experiences even on their death beds in front of children and spouses, and one went to their death knowingly taking his brother with him for the cause, well what more can be said?

Edited April 21, 2014 by why me

[bjw]

One thread that runs through the Gnostic Mass is a symbolic ascending of the Tree of Life, which the entire temple is patterned after.

 

http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/The_Gnostic_Mass

http://hermetic.com/jones/on-the-formula-of-the-gnostic-mass.html

I notice the layout is similar to the Martinist Order, complete with the light and dark contrast. The idea of advancing forward is present in Mormonism as well, considering how the modern temples are being built with a 3 stage advance.

One thing I noticed in one of the links you posted was that Crowley said that in designing the ceremony he was careful to not include anything that would conflict science while still being satisfying man's religious instincts. I thought of both Mormonism and Rosicrucianism on that, since I notice many believe these in no way conflict with science, even evolution. Just some interesting observations.

Tsuzuki - Fun thread. Thanks for the OP, and the ensuing fun. Also, good to hear from you bjw, too.

I agree, its been a good thread. Also, it's good to be back on the board, hope all is well.