Thelema And Mormonism.

[Tsuzuki]

Ten Crowley Myths Busted by AC2012

http://ac2012.com/2011/12/20/aleister-crowley-myths-busted/

Top 10 Crowley Myths which are Actually True

http://ac2012.com/2012/08/05/aleister-crowley-myths-actually-true/

[Nathair/|\]

Ten Crowley Myths Busted by AC2012

http://ac2012.com/20...y-myths-busted/

Top 10 Crowley Myths which are Actually True

http://ac2012.com/20...-actually-true/

#3 in the second link makes him officially awesome, no matter how much some of his other practices make me a bit uncomfortable. I also find his poem about Pan strangely compelling.

[MormonMason]

Can you elaborate? If by "Black Mass" you mean the Gnostic Mass of the O.T.O., that ritual was designed by Crowley after the Book of the Law was written, and of course has sentences from it. Why wouldn't it?

http://en.wikipedia....he_Gnostic_Mass

Nope, I do not mean the Gnostic Mass, or what used to be known as the Gnostic Catholic Mass. I mean actual Black Mass, as in Satanic Black Mass. Several lines in that third chapter are nearly identical to phrases someone I know heard in such rituals. I have heard many a Satanist say similar to the same things.

It is incoherent babbling in more than several places. In many ways it functions as a Rorschach test for the person reading it.

I get that people involved with Thelema want to each interpret the text for him/herself, but whatever happened to Crowley's own insistence that he and he alone has right to interpret the text for his followers? Has that now changed in the years following when I first studied this group?

Source? Not that it matters. Many people are under the influence of the drug caffeine when they write things.

You seriously were not aware that Crowley was a cocaine addict and that he was a lifelong heroin addict who also experimented with various hallucinogenic drugs? See the various biographies written about him as well as his own novel based upon his actual earlier life. (Where the real fiction is, is that he was able to be cured of his addictions by use of magick, so be forewarned because he wasn't cured and died an addict). These books will tell you the information you seek.

Recall that he was heavily using both substances to the point of hallucinations, as well as taking maintenance doses to keep from going into withdrawal, during his honeymoon. It was during this honeymoon period that he wrote the "Book of the Law." Compare the timelines. Being under the heavy influence of cocaine and heroin is quite a bit different than being hyped up on caffeine. In addition, the very "Book of the Law" enjoins the use of hallucinogens in worship and so forth, also a violation of Church policy and doctrine. The "Book of the Law" is by no means compatible with LDS teaching and promotes ideas contrary to sound teaching in the Church.

What is the issue aside from the law of chastity?

You mean aside from it being a violation of official Church belief and policy?

Go here and read paragraph 21.4.8 and what it says about occult affiliation, practice and discussion. Talk to some General Authorities and ask them how the Church views the use of sexual magic such as O.T.O. promotes. Read the Bible and the Book of Mormon to see what they say about use of "magics" and other such arts.

[Tsuzuki]

Nope, I do not mean the Gnostic Mass, or what used to be known as the Gnostic Catholic Mass. I mean actual Black Mass, as in Satanic Black Mass. Several lines in that third chapter are nearly identical to phrases someone I know heard in such rituals. I have heard many a Satanist say similar to the same things.

Satanism came after Crowley, and stole many of his (and others') material without giving him credit.

I get that people involved with Thelema want to each interpret the text for him/herself, but whatever happened to Crowley's own insistence that he and he alone has right to interpret the text for his followers? Has that now changed in the years following when I first studied this group?

Where did he insist that he had the right to interpret the text for his "followers" (he never wanted followers)? He did write some commentaries on the Book of the Law, which are very interesting, especially around those particular verses (see "The Law is for All"), but it was always up to each person to interpret it for themself, and Crowley's commentaries were never meant to be the final word.

You seriously were not aware that Crowley was a cocaine addict and that he was a lifelong heroin addict who also experimented with various hallucinogenic drugs? See the various biographies written about him as well as his own novel based upon his actual earlier life. (Where the real fiction is, is that he was able to be cured of his addictions by use of magick, so be forewarned because he wasn't cured and died an addict). These books will tell you the information you seek.

Recall that he was heavily using both substances to the point of hallucinations, as well as taking maintenance doses to keep from going into withdrawal, during his honeymoon. It was during this honeymoon period that he wrote the "Book of the Law." Compare the timelines. Being under the heavy influence of cocaine and heroin is quite a bit different than being hyped up on caffeine. In addition, the very "Book of the Law" enjoins the use of hallucinogens in worship and so forth, also a violation of Church policy and doctrine. The "Book of the Law" is by no means compatible with LDS teaching and promotes ideas contrary to sound teaching in the Church.

Read this:

http://ac2012.com/2009/10/27/drugs-and-the-deathbed/

Also, I should note that at official O.T.O. functions, illegal substances are not permitted (everything that Crowley took was legal at the time, and that heroin was prescribed by his doctor), and without going into any details to avoid the risk of relieving anything I've sworn not to, there are elements of the 1st degree initiation in the O.T.O. that are very very compatible with the Word of Wisdom. From a Thelemic point of view, anything that can potentially impair your will should be treated very carefully. If Crowley failed at any point, that's on him, but it does not impair the philosophy. You might as well throw out everything written by B. H. Roberts and J. Golden Kimball, who were getting drunk at the same time Crowley was getting high.

You mean aside from it being a violation of official Church belief and policy?

Go here and read paragraph 21.4.8 and what it says about occult affiliation, practice and discussion. Talk to some General Authorities and ask them how the Church views the use of sexual magic such as O.T.O. promotes. Read the Bible and the Book of Mormon to see what they say about use of "magics" and other such arts.

This has already been discussed at length years ago when I was here talking about magic and occultism in general. I think you were there at the time. Setting aside the fact that many early Mormons practiced magic, including the Smith family, there is no church disciplinary response for doing so. I think the official response from the church to summoning a goetic demon in the privacy of your own home ranges from a stern warning to a chuckle. I've even heard one Stake President speak at length from the stand on the beauties of numerology.

[Tsuzuki]

Here's a good interview with Lon Milo DuQuette, current Deputy Grand Master of the U.S. Grand Lodge of the O.T.O. and also a high ranking Mason (which MormonMason might appreciate).

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMmFZI7mOck

Also, is Kerry Shirts still around? He wrote positively about Crowley's Thoth tarot deck, and I would like his input.

http://www2.ida.net/...il/magician.htm

[Calm]

Also, is Kerry Shirts still around? He wrote positively about Crowley's Thoth tarot deck, and I would like his input.

http://www2.ida.net/...il/magician.htm

I believe he hangs out more on Facebook though he comes around here on occasion. He is approaching religion with a different (active skepticism I would describe as) stance these days so I don't know if he holds the same view as expressed in this article. Edited May 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nathair/|\]

Also, is Kerry Shirts still around? He wrote positively about Crowley's Thoth tarot deck, and I would like his input.

http://www2.ida.net/...il/magician.htm

I'm hoping to buy my friend's Toth deck (She doesn't relate to it well. I think she prefers Rider-Waite), either for study, or to give to my apprentice.when she finally chooses a divination method. I don't use tarot as a primary divination technique and I prefer to craft my own tools, so there is no problem with it not being a gift.

[Nathair/|\]

Every human activity, without exception, is a variety of magic.--Occult proverb.

[Tsuzuki]

I'm hoping to buy my friend's Toth deck (She doesn't relate to it well. I think she prefers Rider-Waite), either for study, or to give to my apprentice.when she finally chooses a divination method. I don't use tarot as a primary divination technique and I prefer to craft my own tools, so there is no problem with it not being a gift.

I've never been gifted a tarot deck. I bought all of mine. That gifting thing is superstitious nonsense.

[Calm]

That gifting thing is superstitious nonsense.

Makes for an interesting ritual touch though.

[Tsuzuki]

Makes for an interesting ritual touch though.

True.

[mfbukowski]

I've never been gifted a tarot deck. I bought all of mine. That gifting thing is superstitious nonsense.

Well if you want to bring THAT up, there may be one or two other things we are talking about that would fit that category.

Where does one draw the non-existent line??

[Tsuzuki]

Well if you want to bring THAT up, there may be one or two other things we are talking about that would fit that category.

Where does one draw the non-existent line??

Unsubstantiated claims. Magic works as a placebo if nothing else, but the claim that being gifted a tarot deck is better is false because most students of the tarot buy their own and do just fine, if not better because they chose a deck better suited to them.

[Sleeper Cell]

Other people called him that, and he ran with it at times (much in the same way that Mormons adopted the term used by their enemies), but he never seriously thought of himself as evil.

This is off topic, but I do identify as a Luciferian, and have since long before being a Thelemite.

You don't fool me. You are really a "Tsuzuki-ite."

Welcome back. In honor of your return, I hereby dedicate my 666^th post to you.

[mfbukowski]

Unsubstantiated claims. Magic works as a placebo if nothing else, but the claim that being gifted a tarot deck is better is false because most students of the tarot buy their own and do just fine, if not better because they chose a deck better suited to them.

Oh come on! "Unsubstantiated claims"?? Really?? Lets do a double blind study on this one:

...is false because most students of the tarot buy their own and do just fine, if not better because they chose a deck better suited to them".

I want to see data showing that they do "just fine"- whatever that means, as well as a comparison that they might "do better" - whatever THAT means "because they chose a deck better suited to them"!

The fact of the matter that there is no evidence for any of this- which actually is just fine with me. But this pot calling the kettle black is just ridiculous!

And regarding the "placebo effect"- that effect is actual proof of the fact that spirit, or psychology, or whatever you want to call it, has a real, measurable effect on health and all kinds of things. It is a real phenomenon which shows scientifically that there is "something to all this stuff".

But saying that your placebo effect is better than someone else's is just silly. There's no scientific evidence for any of it- which of course is fine with me.

[Nathair/|\]

I've never been gifted a tarot deck. I bought all of mine. That gifting thing is superstitious nonsense.

I don't believe it is necessary, but as Cal said, it's a nice ritual that I enjoy and I think it flavors the connection one can get with the tools. Also, both the person I got it from (she gave it to me yesterday when I offered to buy it and I'm already learning a lot from the book that came with it. I haven't had time to give the cards more than a cursory look.) and the person I intend to pass it on to are both working within a system where it's traditional.

[volgadon]

Just for fun. I personally prefer the Vascal System. It is the most reliable, the most up-to- date, and the most scientific method of foretelling the future by cards.

Madame Sosostris, famous clairvoyante, Had a bad cold, nevertheless Is known to be the wisest woman in Europe, 45 With a wicked pack of cards. Here, said she, Is your card, the drowned Phoenician Sailor, (Those are pearls that were his eyes. Look!) Here is Belladonna, the Lady of the Rocks, The lady of situations. 50 Here is the man with three staves, and here the Wheel, And here is the one-eyed merchant, and this card, Which is blank, is something he carries on his back, Which I am forbidden to see. I do not find The Hanged Man. Fear death by water. 55 I see crowds of people, walking round in a ring. Thank you. If you see dear Mrs. Equitone, Tell her I bring the horoscope myself: One must be so careful these days.

[Ntrw]

And there are Thelemites who agree with that, of recent note being Sam Webster.

http://www.patheos.c...03-20-2013.html

However, there are many who disagree, and who work with Christianity as part of their occult practice. Right now, this is a very hot topic in the pagan/occult community, Thelema included.

So perform it within the confines of marriage.

So far my O.T.O membership is looking pretty compatible, though admittedly I'm just a First Degree right now. I plan on doing A.A. when I can devote more time to it, and I'll keep people updated.

Agreed (you mean Richard Kaczynski, right?). Lon Milo DuQuette is also an awesome author, and a Facebook friend of mine.

You probably know alot more about Thelema than I do Here are some Crowley quotes that I love from Liber Al Vel Legis.

O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart! There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse. Accursed! Accursed be it to the aeons! Hell.

For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.

Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.

In one sense you can say that I am a Thelemite. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; love is the law, love under will". If the true will is the "unconscious mind" that is covered by a veil, if the "holy guardian angel" is our truest self, or as a Mormon would say, our pre-mortal self and all the will and desires we had when we came here, if the true will is our "forordination" then Crowley's maxim is truer than true and stricter than the requirements for baptism. So if you read some of Crowley through a Mormon lens you can see that he was on to something, but missed that something completely.

The thing is, O.T.O and A.A are about magick, not just philosophy. I know not all Thelemites practice magick and that magick in Thelema is kinda like a Western form of tantric meditation etc. Also, how can one be a sorcerer and a Latter Day Saint? Yes, I know about Joseph's money digging days; life is complicated and rarely black and white. Anyway, what ever quasi-masonic order you have joined, I suggest you review what you're learning and practicing with your Bishop, just to make sure it's kosher.

[Ntrw]

Ps. I don't say this in a condescending way. I love Theravada Buddhism; truth is truth no matter where it comes from. However praxis is also very important and doing the right thing is waaaayyyy more important than thinking the right things etc.

[Nathair/|\]

. Also, how can one be a sorcerer and a Latter Day Saint? Yes, I know about Joseph's money digging days; life is complicated and rarely black and white. Anyway, what ever quasi-masonic order you have joined, I suggest you review what you're learning and practicing with your Bishop, just to make sure it's kosher.

I am a member of a fraternal druid order and a student of ceremonial and natural magic so that's something I've had to put a lot of thought, study, prayer, and discussion with various bishops and this board, among other people. I posted this here in Feb 2011 and copied it to my blog.

My best definitions of some magical terms.

Magic

Dion Fortune, a leader in the original Golden Dawn and one of the most important Hermetic mages of the past century defined it as "Causing change in consciousness in accordance with will." Magic typically involves manipulating the life force (what Chinese and Japanese martial artists call chi or ki and Jedi call "the Force," the Hebrew word is ruach and my Druid tradition calls it Nwyfre.) It is typically done either through imagination/visualization, physical movement (eg. dance, martial arts), or using materials that are naturally charged with certain qualities of Nwyfre (eg. Juniper bushes are said to keep thieves away and elm trees are said to attract Faeries); combined with intent. Other plants, animals and minerals have their own effects and properties.)

The effects can be enhanced by ritual, by music and by timing the work to days when the spiritus mundi or general nwyfre of the earth are strong in certain qualities. One can also enchant (literally: to put a song in something) certain objects or places to help them in their work or to have a long term effect without needing to work magic every time. One might enchant a stone in their garden to increase productivity or prepare a satchel of herbs and minerals and keep it where they practice a musical instrument to increase the rate of improvement.

However, the one thing that must not be neglected if one wants to learn magic is regular practice, just like if one wants to be an artist, they have to practice. For this reason, many mages say that all human activities, without exception, are forms of magic.

Occult

Literally means hidden or unseen. Occult typically refers to any activity taught only to those who have been initiated. In a general sense, it includes groups like the Freemasons or Odd Fellows.

Sorcery

The only kind of magic prohibited in restoration scripture. It refers to powers derived from evil entities (eg. Satan) or evil acts (eg. involuntary human sacrifice or torture of any living being.) Much of what Alister Crowley did and virtually anything promoted by Anton LaVey qualifies.. Sorcery can also refer to claiming magical abilities, either pretend or real, in order to deceive and get money, power, etc. Goetia is a type of sorcery under the literal definition of invoking evil entities. However, it can also involve improving psychological health by dealing with ones shadow side or personal demons (ie. damaged parts of the psyche.)

Black Magic

Any act involving sorcery or magic for evil purposes. Black magic always burns it's caster. Curses always rebound. However, magic for the purpose of ensuring a criminal will be caught, for example, is not black magic unless motivations are evil.

Hope this helps.

Yours under the theoretical oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Nathair/|\]

Kerry Shirts made the following video.

[Ntrw]

I am a member of a fraternal druid order and a student of ceremonial and natural magic so that's something I've had to put a lot of thought, study, prayer, and discussion with various bishops and this board, among other people. I posted this here in Feb 2011 and copied it to my blog.

Cool. I think that's the best advice someone can give. Figure it out, how it doesn't contradict the gospel, counsel with Bishops, pray and fast. Magick, from a certain perspective, can be like studying Brazilian jujitsu or yoga. It all depends on the why, I suppose.

[Calm]

doing the right thing is waaaayyyy more important than thinking the right things etc.

I think we need to connect the two...doing the right thing for the right reason is way more important than just thinking the right things or just doing what is right because of gain or ease or something besides it is the right thing to do....

[Ntrw]

I think we need to connect the two...doing the right thing for the right reason is way more important than just thinking the right things or just doing what is right because of gain or ease or something besides it is the right thing to do....

I agree.

[Calm]

Cool. I think that's the best advice someone can give. Figure it out, how it doesn't contradict the gospel, counsel with Bishops, pray and fast. Magick, from a certain perspective, can be like studying Brazilian jujitsu or yoga. It all depends on the why, I suppose.

I had a friend who lived in our ward boundaries who did horoscopes for a living and who ended up being baptized. At the time our bishop was one of the most conservative, black and white, rigid adults that I knew (I was in my early 20s...I have since come across less flexible people). It was a testimony to me how the mantle of the calling can expand one as the bishop told my friend that as long as he didn't use horoscopes to predict the future, but rather as a way to gain personal insight, as a way to trigger exploring of oneself (as opposed to providing answers and telling a person to do this or that), iow function as a therapist rather than a fortune teller, that such a career was acceptable for a LDS. The bishop's response helped me to look at nontraditional faiths in a more expanded way. Not that I wasn't already a nontraditionalist in many ways having been brought up on Jung and Campbell and Swedenborg, but it encouraged me to consider other beliefs even more deeply as possible sources of light and insight for my own. Edited May 8, 2013 by calmoriah